Sincere help for 9/11 debunkers

Originally posted by GiodanoBruno

Originally posted by -PLB-

Originally posted by soulwaxer
For people with eyes that see, it is obvious that the destruction of WTC 1, 2 and 7 was controlled demolition. And it is therefore quite amazing that 9/11 debunkers are seemingly unable to see this.

Here is my theory on that: You debunkers have the same eyes as the rest of us, and therefore can also see the obvious.

Its not obvious at all. You have absolutely no clue what an event like this should look like. Nobody in the world could have predicted it with any certainty. The idea that you somehow know stuff like this is some sort of psychological condition. Mostly harmless though.

The difference is in how your mind processes this information.

This is true. Looking at Youtube videos and making some uneducated guesses isn't the way I process data. I base my opinion on studies of experts instead. Simply because I fully acknowledge that I do not posses the required education, training and expertise to form a relevant opinion about the subject. For some reason many people in the truth movement are under the impression their opinion does matter. There is only one way to make your opinion matter, which is scientific publication. Something that the truth movement is completely lacking.

As for the idea that I reject this controlled demolition idea because of a trauma, I think it is extremely far fetched. I don't care that much about the whole 9/11 event or its victims. Sure its not nice for those people who suffered, but # happens all the time. I feel more sorry for all the people who are still suffering from wars every day. When you put the whole event in perspective, its not really that devastating, except for a dent in the ego of the USA or the west in general.

So instead of becoming your own expert you blindly believe some certified-professional-government-employee? Says a lot about your self esteem.

Thanks for that! The comment you replied to is quite telling indeed. Notice how he doesn't seem to be aware that how many people died is only a small part of the trauma. The real trauma is that something happened that we couldn't place. It was surreal. As I said earlier, this was above all a psychological attack on the public. The poster also states that he doesn't have the requirements to form a relevant opinion on the subject. That means that, in his mind, there must still be the possibility that this was an inside job. And so all those people suffering in the wars he is so worried about, would not be suffering if we had all had the strength to trust and face what we saw with our own eyes, in broad daylight... BEFORE we invaded the Middle East causing all that suffering.

To the poster of that first comment: I don't mean to be disrespectful. I honestly care about what you and many others are going through, whether you understand it or not. After all, I experienced the same thing.

We are all in the same boat, and if we don't rock it enough, it will take us straight to hell.

ETA 1: The only thing that's gonna stop that boat and change its course is YOU!

Originally posted by soulwaxer
Let me clarify. Science has a tendency to ignore what can't be measured. If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. That is based on belief, not on fact. For all things that can be measured, you can't go wrong with science. But in my opinion, the aspects of reality that cannot be measured far outweigh the ones that can be. That's where intuition can be very helpful. And intuition is very important in discovering new ideas.

Science does not have the "tendency" to ignore what can't be measured. Measurement is its number one foundation. It is the starting point of all science. Without at least some for of measurement, there isn't even an hypothesis. So science does not have a tendency to ignore unmeasurable things, it does so by definition.

I disagree with intuition being that important. Sure, for personal choices it can be very helpful. Shall I buy this house or not. Shall I wear the brown jacket or the black one.

But when it comes to technical matters, intuition is much less useful. In fact, engineers are trained not to trust intuition and always check designs using (mathematical) models. This is because intuition is very often wrong. If you put "Intuition" in the references of your paper, you will cause laughter.

reply to post by soulwaxer

And so all those people suffering in the wars he is so worried about, would not be suffering if we had all had the strength to trust and face what we saw with our own eyes, in broad daylight

And what did we see with our own eyes? Towers falling?

Let me guess on 9.11 you magically knew the government did it 100%?

reply to post by Alfie1


show me any FAB that can multiple detonate. And the shockwave follows the path of least resistance, up the shaft not through it

sorry but I see it as pure evil when people who claim a collapse that is generated by sagging inward has projectiles expelled outward that carried bits of people with it.

Get a conscience

Originally posted by soulwaxer
Thanks for that! The comment you replied to is quite telling indeed. Notice how he doesn't seem to be aware that how many people died is only a small part of the trauma.

Care to point out a quote where you got this idea from? Or are you just making it up?

Of course you are just making it up. You have no idea what I am aware of. But it is much easyer to make up all kind of negative properties for the people you disagree with, so you don't have to deal with the actual arguments that person comes with.

The real trauma is that something happened that we couldn't place. It was surreal. As I said earlier, this was above all a psychological attack on the public. The poster also states that he doesn't have the requirements to form a relevant opinion on the subject. That means that, in his mind, there must still be the possibility that this was an inside job. And so all those people suffering in the wars he is so worried about, would not be suffering if we had all had the strength to trust and face what we saw with our own eyes, in broad daylight... BEFORE we invaded the Middle East causing all that suffering.

Sure, I am open for the inside job theory. Just provide actual evidence instead of intuition. I am that easily convinced.

As for "trust and face what we saw with our own eyes". Who is we? For who are you speaking exactly?

And why are you ignoring my post and instead address me in a post to someone else? Are you avoiding direct discussion? If so, why?

reply to post by LoonyConservative


never heard of a heat sink before? The transfer of heat prevents "melting" so explain the molten pile (or the buckilng for that matter)

If there is some obvious universal truth about 9/11 being an "inside job" how come truthers have come up with 1001 different scenarios but no hard facts ?

Hard evidence is definitely lacking but strange circumstances and motive are through the roof. That counts for a lot in a normal court case but not here...

The other problem is that 901 of those 1001 scenarios are obvious disinformation, such as the ludicrous holographic airplane theory.

To me, the outright pollution of YouTube IS evidence of some coverup. It's not just 9/11 theories either.

Originally posted by LoonyConservative
reply to post by soulwaxer

 

I counter your op with this:

Only a few truthers really want to know the truth. most of the others want the glory and bragging rights to finding the smoking gun.

I've seen sooooo many threads containing the word PROOF! and yet I haven't seen any proof.

how many times is someone going to go through all the different forms of thermite known to man, and try to cut through the type of beam used in the WTC... only to see nothing but burn marks.

How many threads on wtc 7 are there going to be about silverstein "pulling" it when the audio was played on national tv of him saying to pull it because it was damaged

call me a paid shill if you'd like.. it doesn't matter because either way there is nothing truthers are going to be able to do about it if there was a smoking gun somewhere.

I recommend not focussing too much on proof. There was a time that we had 'proof' of the Earth being the center of the universe. A tiny minority of people were aware enough to face all the facts and set out to prove that the universe was not revolving around the Earth. Others had been aware of this long before then. All of them were 'truthers'

And I haven't called anyone a paid shill. I have said that I don't believe that many debunkers are shills. In fact, I think there are very few. Many people are so mislead, unconsciously of course, that they actually appear to be shills. Maybe that's because they have an insatiable urge to solve that pesky conflict in the depths of their mind.

Again, no disrespect intended. I will say it again: I had that same conflict going on, and it made me obsessively look for answers. (That was in 2004 or 2005.) Why would I do that if I was so sure that I was getting the truth from the mainstream news? Because I wasn't. Something deep inside me knew that there was something very wrong with the whole picture, even if I consciously couldn't believe it yet. I needed to verify it, and it took me several weeks of hard confrontation with the evidence, and even more so with myself, to finally accept it. Then it took me about 2 weeks to emotionally adjust to this new reality. And after that it has taken me about 7 years to be able to understand and put into words what actually happened to me, and most of the rest of us.

Now, when I follow threads on 9/11, I am not looking for answers anymore to what happened or who did it. I am only watching how others are evolving in 'waking up' to the fact that they need to trust their own instincts and experiences.

I rather resent the fact that, because I do not believe your theories on what actually occurred on 9/11, I am sadly, psychologically defective and am to be pitied since my emotions are traumatized. I could, but won't, swap a couple of words and say exactly the same about you.

Bull hooey. We are two persons with differing viewpoints, that is ALL! To suggest anything else is ridiculous.

Originally posted by LoonyConservative
And I also ask: If 9/11 was indeed an inside job, then why 5 years after when support was dwindling.. was there not another successful attack to gather renewed support?

One would think it would be easy.

But all of you seem to have trouble with the idea that of all the hundreds of aircraft flying everyday, that 4 could be hijacked, and piloted into some buildings... I'm pretty sure any pilot would say that the hardest parts are take off and landing. So anyone with some type of experience should be able to turn, straighten out, and dive a plane.

And many also seem to forget that the roof of both towers was a massive thick slab of concrete and steel...If the main support beam is compromised, especially near the top as it was, I do not think physics would dictate the roof toppling over the side...but instead come straight down... and appear as a controlled demo.

ETA: jet fuel doesn't have to completely melt steel in order for that steel while under load to be compromised... but it is capable of making the steel brittle, and weight can do the rest... think about it.

edit on 23-6-2012 by LoonyConservative because: (no reason given)

I thought not to respond to this, but I can't help it. You have a loooong way to go. But there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Originally posted by JustAHuman
reply to post by samkent

 

Because the MSM is afraid to reveal the truth and those that own the MSM won't allow it to be revealed. The only free form of conspiracy expression is the interweb thingy.

Yes. And that is exactly why the interweb thingy (lol) is teeming with it. Lots of people are using it for the purpose that it best serves.

Funny this. Have you noted how the language and style of the 9/11 threads matches the god-atheist threads!

Apparently being an atheist "I need help" and not believing in a 9/11 conspiracy "I need help".

Originally posted by Myendica

Originally posted by samkent
reply to post by soulwaxer

 

So why does the 911 conspiracy only exist in cyberspace?

im guessing ive talked to close to 1000 individuals in real life about 9/11, and about 7 believe the OS. It does exist outside the inteernet, its just everyone know authority wont do anything about it.

7 in 1000?! Wow, what circles do you move in?

That's an excellent point about everyone knowing authority won't do anything about it. And it definitely plays a role in some people's hesitation to discuss it or even think about it. But I wouldn't say everyone. There are many people who believe that the authorities are always there to protect them, and that they will be informed about any dangers that may come their way. So a huge part of the problem is that people have forgotten that they themselves are the authority. Understanding that you (all of us) have the authority to do something about this, is the goal. As soon as we decide to do this, we are there.

The ones who are in power are the tiny minority. If they were not a minority, they wouldn't need their power...

Originally posted by zarp3333
reply to post by southtower

 

How ignorant is white vs black, young vs old, Muslim vs Christian? As soon as we admit we are all in this together, we will have gotten to bottom of the problem.

Oh man, you just made me feel really good! Not the part about the pine boxes, but the rest of your post is some powerful words. A few posts back, I wrote something very similar. We are all in the same boat. If we don't rock it hard enough, it will take us straight to hell.

If we do rock it hard enough, it will take us anywhere we want to go.

Originally posted by Raivan31
Either they,

A. Destroyed the towers themselves for some evil agenda

or

B. The towers got destroyed because the U.S gov has made it it's business to systematically bomb the [rude word] out of so many countries that it was bound to happen that one of em would exact a little (and yes 911 was nothing compared with what U.S and allied military has done) revenge or perhaps the word 'vengence' would be more appropriate.

Interesting theories, and both run counter to the accepted story. Regarding option B, which country, previously bombed by the United States, do you believe exacted vengeance on 9/11? Iraq? Vietnam? Japan? The official story says it was transnational terrorists, led by a national of an American ally, operating out of a state in which the American military had AFAIK never fired a shot in anger.

Or perhaps you constructed that strawman to make option A appear more reasonable.

Originally posted by samkent
reply to post by soulwaxer

 

So why does the 911 conspiracy only exist in cyberspace?

In what way does the conspiracy only exist in cyberspace? You seem to be implying that the 911 conspiracy only exits in our "heads." For one thing, the inconsistencies in the official story have been dissected and discussed in books and public lectures for 10 years. For another, since discussing alternative 911 theories in an intelligent manner in MSM is strictly forbidden, where else would it exist?

I'm beginning to absolutely HATE "911" threads.

Originally posted by TsukiLunar
The government is known for not being able to keep the smallest thing goddamn secret for very long. Truthers would have me believe that the government could keep an event so huge like 911 shrouded in secrecy for more than a decade?

I think not, sir. They are not that competent.

edit on 24-6-2012 by TsukiLunar because: (no reason given)

This is a common misconception. How is 9/11 so shrouded in secrecy when there is an endless amount of video, websites and whatever else exposing all kinds of aspects of it. There is more than enough evidence to create the big picture, without the need of being able to pinpoint every individual involved and every action they undertook. That is just an excuse to stop looking, but you'll probably be back.

And about the government not being competent at what they do: Hitler was pretty competent at what he did. We are dealing with the same kind of power hungry psychopaths RIGHT NOW. Or do you think that those suddenly became extinct after Hitler and his colleagues vanished from the scene like a one time wonder? If anything, they are much more efficient now. They have more experience to build on, a more evolved network and better technology. In other words, more power. A lot more power.

Originally posted by MrJohnSmith
reply to post by neformore

 

You have pointed out quite rightly that WTC's 1 & 2 were of a fairly UNIQUE CONSTRUCTION, I don't think many people take this into account, when discussing this topic....

Or choose to overlook it, for their own purposes ?

The whole event was unique in nature, and therefore comparisons cannot be made with other similar events.

If people understood the construction method of the twin towers, they would see WHY the burning aviation fuel did not have to actually melt any of the steel work, only buckle it, through heat distortion, to do the damage which led to the collapse of the towers.

I took the time to look into how the twin towers were built, and although I'm no engineer, I can see why they collapsed, under the circumstances..

Besides the fact that you didn't mention WTC 7, you are ignoring the fact that there are several witnesses claiming molten steel in the basement of WTC 1 and 2. There are the video images of the molten metal pouring out of the corner of one of the towers. There were also heat images shown (in the mainstream news if I remember correctly) that showed the heat signatures, also in WTC 7. Weeks or months after 9/11. There are images of steel structural beams with holes in them like Swiss cheese. And there are images of steel and concrete fused into solid chunks. Airplanes, fire and gravity alone do not cause that.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
I think 9/11 truthers should stop acting like they know 100% without a doubt their version of events are reality when they have no clue whether or not it is. It is silly to get so emotional on a topic when it is based on pure speculation.

The OP is very illogical. If someone doesn't agree with you on a topic it means they're traumatized? That makes absolutely NO sense. What's the explanation for non- American 9/11 "debunkers"? The OP alone shows that you are not very good at processing information or theories along with any of the people that agreed with you.

edit on 24-6-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

I don't like saying this but it seems that you haven't even scratched the surface of what I've said. If you understood that I think people are traumatized because they don't agree with me on a topic, then I suggest you reread what I've written so far.