It Is Time To Police The Internet.

We dont need to police the internet. Most of the issues you stated are over-exagerrated and already policed anyway.

If you were to seal a DVD or a CD form a shop, you would face justice

Piracy is not the same as stealing. Imagine that your car gets stolen, but it is still there in the morning.

Many would argue that piracy should be legal. It is legal in my country.

if you abused your neighbours you might expect a knock on the door from your local copper

It is very hard to abuse someone through the internet. Because the "victim" can simply cease to visit the page or block the abuser. It is thus usualy a choice of the "victim" to be annoyed. There are cases of serious repeated harrassment, circumventing blocking features and so on, but they are rare and far between. The myth of widespread "internet bullying" is just that, a myth.

and if you were to openly put up posters of explicit child abuse you would expect to face justice

This is one of those borderline cases. But I think it should be legal, too. It is a victimless act. Child porn or snuff movies should be treated as evidence of a crime, not as a crime in itself. Evidence needs to be exposed, not hidden and criminalised.

Then we have the other crime that is fraud

Sufficiently covered today. We dont need to police the net any more, there is usualy a law that victims of fraud get their money back.

we also have the wider issue of hacking of government databases that comprise our national security.

Does not bother me enough to justify increase policing of the net.

First of all. the internet is insecure because it was made by humans and it will always be that way. Every computer device can be hacked or crashed, copied or destroyed. And it's always going to be that way. There is always going to be a hole to escape. a way to be anonymous. a method of hiding your identity or impersonating another. It cant be stopped.

It will just be another failed multi-trillion dollar loss like the war on drugs which does more harm than good.

I for one intend to maintain anonymity on the web regardless of any such attempts. putting all my contact details, address and family contacts in an accessible area for everyone destroys privacy and encourages real life stalkers. it gives the stalkers all they need to monitor you, kidnap and rape your wife while ur at work because they can now observe your routine. If you're like me and you dont keep any routine then more power to you. If you're also like me and you will remain anonymous by not putting ur real credentials ANYWHERE on the internet. and also utilizing internet techniques to get past country barriers that block and filter media reports by country so you can always get the true news from the horses mouth rather than just a western world twist to the news. more power to you as well.

This time, the stalkers will be federal child molesting, drug pushing, prostitute harbouring, murdering government employees. and they are supposed to be somehow better than me and in a position of authority over me? or anyone else for that matter?

Ha! you wait on that day!

My details are mine. i provide them if and when i feel like it. you may have the right to request it. but i have every right to say 'NO' and tell you where to stuff your policed internet too.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
The internet offers criminals’ perfect anonymity and protection form the law, they can hide behind the vale of cyberspace with their aliases. The argument that to police the internet is to infringe on the civil liberties of the innocent, whilst true is also the greatest form of protection for the criminal fraternity who seek to use the internet for their lawless acts.

If you are doing something super seriously illegal, they will find you one way or another. Very rarely are a criminals tracks -only- online.

If you were to seal a DVD or a CD form a shop, you would face justice, if you abused your neighbours you might expect a knock on the door from your local copper and if you were to openly put up posters of explicit child abuse you would expect to face justice. Yet the internet provides the perfect cover for these crimes to go unpunished only feeding the criminality.

They bust people all the time for that kind of sick stuff by going through the proper channels, tracking them, and finally arresting them. It's called an investigation. No matter what kind of powers they gain to police the web they still have to investigate to track them down. And don't even get me started on how ridiculous it is to lump file sharers in with the sickos. That's how they try and pass stuff like SOPA and all that junk

Its not just the obvious crimes of copyright infringement and sexual abuse but its also its use as a facilitator of other crimes. Take for example childish bullying, it is no longer confide to the parameters of the playground, the internet offers a new way for children to be victimised by their peers. More dangerously it offers evil doers to opportunity to pray on venerable children for their own twisted desires. It is not just children that are caught up in the sexual depravity of the internet but also adults, some forced into the sex trade find themselves as adverts on the internet. It’s sickening.

Computers can be turned off, parents can be called, school officials and police can be allerted. As a matter of fact, cyber bullying is better than schoolyard bullying, it's a paper trail that can prove criminal harassment, or at the very least lead to some serious consequences for the kids involved.

And it's not my problem that some yuppie parent gives their ten year old a laptop and then doesn't want to monitor their activity. I'm an adult, I can do whatever I want on the internet. A kid on the other hand, shouldn't. But that's not my problem, it's their parents.

Then we have the other crime that is fraud, people losing their hard earned money because a clever 14 year old Nigerian sitting in an internet café can hack your accounts or set up a false EBay site. But that is not the only hacking that is a problem, we also have the wider issue of hacking of government databases that comprise our national security.

If someone is dumb enough to fall for the whole Nigerian Prince thing, they deserve it. That's been happening for like twelve years. People should also know better than to enter their bank/ebay/paypal information on any website that is sent to them in an e-mail. Most companies these days, especially ones that deal with financial issues, will warn you about phishing emails. It doesn't get any more clear than "We will never ask you for your account information via e-mail."

Don't be fooled by the shenanigans that are going on today with hacking. Anonymous, while getting a hold of some juicy government stuff from time to time, aren't going to end up with anything dangerous. It's not like the movies where some guy is wildly typing gibberish onto 3 or 4 keyboards and making nukes go off. Things of a very sensitive nature are surely only on computers connected to an intranet, a self contained network that is not even connected to the world wide web.

And let us not forget those who use the internet to coordinate their crimes such as terrorists and other international criminals.

I find this hard to believe. Did Bin Laden's compound even have a phone line? The messenger guy or whoever they finally ended up tracking down was so cautious as to always remove the battery from his cell phone way before he even neared the compound, just in case he was being tracked. They aren't that stupid.

To some the internet is a self-regulating entity, but I think it is time for international cooperation on policing the vastness of the internet. I do not propose as to how this is to be done, all I am saying is that I think we have now reached a point where it has become the unfortunate reality that the internet requires policing.

There are already perfectly good methods of policing the illegal activity that happens online. Don't let the fear mongering get to you.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
Except people who commit crimes on the Internet are caught all the time, meaning that the Internet is already policed. Also, crimes happen all the time in the real world and nobody gets caught.

Well then that shows the internet is already being policed, In this thread I would argue that it would be better to have a national or indeed international dedicated cybercrime forces.

It already exists; it's called Interpol

From the article:
"Its work focuses primarily on public safety, terrorism, organized crime, crimes against humanity, environmental crime, genocide, war crimes, piracy, illicit drug production, drug trafficking, weapons smuggling, human trafficking, money laundering, child pornography, white-collar crime, computer crime, intellectual property crime and corruption."

This organization can, & routinely does, combine its computer crime fighting function with its other crime fighting functions, ie organized crime, child pornography, etc.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


How about we police EVERYONE'S houses as well?... You know, criminals might hide behind bushes or inside people's house so we MUST have an eye inside EVERYONE'S house...

Whoever trades liberty for "protection" deserves neither...

Obviously you are a tremendous control freak, and you most probably have a position of power because YOU need to be in control of everything.

My guess is, if you are old enough, you have been divorced at least 2-3 times, or you will find yourself divorced that many if not more times if you continue on this path simply because you are a CONTROL FREAK...

There are already several ways in which the police can find criminals, and taking away more of our libeties is not going to take criminals away, in fact it will make the police the criminals for taking away our right to privacy...

You, nor the police, CAN'T control everything, and you shouldn't.

People deserve to have their privacy, and if because of privacy the police can't catch some criminals SO BE IT...

I'll rather have my rights, and my privacy than knowing that all criminals are behind bars and find myself behind bars as well in my own house...

Another thread created by people paid to post on this website and the mods just let it happen. How much more obvious does the propaganda need to get?

I think it's time to find a new website.

The authorities have all the power they need right now, the only thing that will happen once you give them complete control over the internet is CENSORSHIP.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


The best way to take away freedoms, is to convince the people it's for their safety...

OP's Second Chapter:

"The internet offers criminals’ perfect anonymity and protection form the law, they can hide behind the vale of cyberspace with their aliases. The argument that to police the internet is to infringe on the civil liberties of the innocent, whilst true is also the greatest form of protection for the criminal fraternity who seek to use the internet for their lawless acts."
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It could also be said that those vigilant to government and public corruption would be silenced under your premise, our last line of safeguards. It won't be too long before your progeny will be able to access a site or forum of some sort, and access every site that you have ever been to, in fact, I suppose that law enforcement already have that ability.

Your children, in curiosity will learn that you were much interested in physics, crop circles and had a lust for Dodge Hemi's from the 60's. Or that maybe you bred English parakeets and loved astronomy, or that you preferred Teen porn, or explosives, or even indoor growing of certain varieties of ... 'you know' ......... so it might behoove you to curtail some of your searches and activities in certain areas, you will be found out someday., and your legacy left bare for the world to see.

To make a blanket Policing of the internet is akin to a Totalitarian Society, and all your rights having been removed, your would be just a number, a target, or a scapegoat/patsy in the wrong hands by your enemies.

Ultimately what you propose reminds me of what Franklin said "Those willing to give up their liberties for protection, deserve neither......

You won't find a following here, or on any societal stage. Once the dangers of a police state are revealed in this sort of invasion, I think most will cry foul and take a stand against such an occupation in the cyberworld to their privacy. There are now and will always be, inalienable rights, and privacy will always be one that is paramount.

I also believe those who spend their life in the cyberworld, in time loose touch with reality. It reminds me of the, I believe it was an Alfred Hitchcock movie about the aging 20's and 30's movie screen heroine, who shut herself in her home theater and watched reruns of her life early on, while the world and people around her aged and dealt with real life. Definitely behavior observed as abnormal.
Basing you life behind this keyboard and monitor are at best unhealthy. Social interaction, gathering with friends, out of doors is infinitely more healthy than creating your own small reality in the world you occupy on the net. You reduce and limit your interaction to actual day to day into small focused worlds of reality that are not healthy.

As for myself, there are a few, a small few sites I frequent almost every day on the net. They are a gauge of societies health or the political comings and goings, and ACTUAL current events. Beyond that I live my life in the real world, where actual people interact with each other, and are held responsible for their behavior including what they say of others around them.
Don't let boredom reduce your existence into a life in cyberspace.... it's so unhealthy and phobia inducing. Removing any part of the whole makes for a biased outlook.

Isn’t it sad on ATS, that with a membership who for the most part strongly defend the right to freedom of speech that I cannot voice my opinion without insults? In this thread I have been accused of being a coward, a paid shill, a control freak and had my spelling insulted in such a way as to insinuate that I am a hoaxer (dyslexic would be more accurate). Just because I hold different views from you does not make me wrong nor does it excuse pointless juvenile insults that do nothing to add to the debate.

For those members who have the ability to disagree with me without resorting to the frankly pathetic use of childish insults thank you for your considered responses.

I understand that for the most part many of you hold the libertarian values of privacy and freedom of speech dearly and as such a move for greater policing of the internet is in your view a shift in the equilibrium balancing liberties and security that goes too far in the favour of security. I myself hold no such political view, I do not regard myself as liberal or libertarian in anyway and as such ideologically I have no problem with an increase in policing of the internet for me it is justifiable to sacrifice a little bit of liberty for the security of the many. Many members will understandable disagree with my stance on this issue, I do not intend to change your minds rather all this thread intends to do is encourage debate. In my view grater policing and regulation of the internet is required to catch the criminals I have described in my OP, if you hold the view that we should police ourselves I will not try to change your views.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Basically, you are suggesting that the entire population of the Earth should be limited and restricted, monitored and controlled, because there is 1:1000 people out there behaving illegally.

If we used the same logic in any other aspect of life, would you be happy to carry papers and meet a military checkpoint, every mile you travel, to be searched and checked - just because there is a chance that you "could" be one of those breaking the law?

How about putting railings around every single road in the country, because there is a high chance that a kid will be knocked over. We can't take the chance, and although it will cost 50 billion in taxes, you have to pay for it because there are 1:10000 kids stupid enough.

How about the high rate of cancer? People every day are ending their lives early through smoking, that is costing health services millions a year. Why not police that and ban cigarettes? The damage done is immense.

How about alcohol? Thousands of crimes are committed every day across the country by alcoholics, men beating their wives and children, drink driving, so on and so on. So we should at least ban alcohol. Or maybe just start a database of all the people in the country who buy it? Then we could make sure that they're not buying too much, check what they are drinking, and gather their information for future arrest when we decide to change the laws.

You are suggesting that people be treated as guilty until proven innocent, allowing for their entire lives to be monitored and watched by governments, compiling files and data on every single citizen - and to what end?

I UTTERLY refuse your suggestion that the entire population must comply with such draconian ideas, in the hope of preventing a minority from acting criminally.

There have always been criminals, there will always be criminals. No "policing" of the internet will prevent them from using Proxy servers, communicating in code and getting around anything that any state can implement.

As has been said about the sick snooping laws being brought in in the UK, criminals and terrorists can just use a VPN. They are not going to be sending email to each other from gmail.

You want to know how I could destroy any code breaking efforts in one simple step? Give you a book, then communicate with you using that book through any means I like.

P34L7W5 P23L93W13 P38L75W52 P274L38W26

Without that book, no government agent, MI6, CIA, Mossad can decipher what four words I just said, only myself and the person I am communicating with can understand it.

The snooping is pointless and can be destroyed with about three simple steps, making any one of us anonymous again.

The reason governments want these snooping laws is to prevent POLITICAL dissent. These laws obviously do not effect the criminals. If I can get around the spying with a VPN and some uncrackable code, do you not think as terrorist can?
The only people these new snooping laws will harm are those wishing to create protest. You cannot supply information to a general public for a large protest in code, you have to make it easy for everyone. That is what the governments know, and that is what they want to stop.

If you still think these laws are intended to discover and prevent crime, even after considering all of what I have just written, you're deluded, and I don't think people like you deserve access to the internet to begin with.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Come on man you're calling for the end of privacy on a conspiracy website. Did you honestly think you would get a kind response? Are you really trying to play the victim card right now after demanding that every person on this planet should be treated as guilty until proven innocent?

To the OP..

How about they police you and your family's internet and leave mine and others who oppose this nonsense alone..

Ridiculous idea, buddy...

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
Isn’t it sad on ATS, that with a membership who for the most part strongly defend the right to freedom of speech that I cannot voice my opinion without insults? In this thread I have been accused of being a coward, a paid shill, a control freak and had my spelling insulted in such a way as to insinuate that I am a hoaxer (dyslexic would be more accurate). Just because I hold different views from you does not make me wrong nor does it excuse pointless juvenile insults that do nothing to add to the debate.

For those members who have the ability to disagree with me without resorting to the frankly pathetic use of childish insults thank you for your considered responses.

I understand that for the most part many of you hold the libertarian values of privacy and freedom of speech dearly and as such a move for greater policing of the internet is in your view a shift in the equilibrium balancing liberties and security that goes too far in the favour of security. I myself hold no such political view, I do not regard myself as liberal or libertarian in anyway and as such ideologically I have no problem with an increase in policing of the internet for me it is justifiable to sacrifice a little bit of liberty for the security of the many. Many members will understandable disagree with my stance on this issue, I do not intend to change your minds rather all this thread intends to do is encourage debate. In my view grater policing and regulation of the internet is required to catch the criminals I have described in my OP, if you hold the view that we should police ourselves I will not try to change your views.

You have every right to freedom of speech..no one is trying to take that from you but when you want to play with privacy ,then you'll have to play alone..that's where the problem starts...

p's.. Stop trying to play the victim...ppl are just voicing their opinion about a bad idea...we have freedom of speech too, you know.

I read your most recent response above, but your original closing statement got me to thinking too...

"To some the internet is a self-regulating entity, but I think it is time for international cooperation on policing the vastness of the internet. I do not propose as to how this is to be done, all I am saying is that I think we have now reached a point where it has become the unfortunate reality that the internet requires policing."
***************************************************************

It kind of made me think and remember of the cold war where in the USSR, and even in Nazi Germany previous to that........ that just a spoken word, overheard by those complicit with the government, might land that person or group before a fireing squad. Or the use of children to rat out their parents political views, the Big Brother listening for any person varying from the prescribed doctrine......
OP, you had better think long and hard on your proposition of allowing yourself being spied on.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Incidentally, I have been reading that more and more people are using the TOR system, VPN and other anonymous methods in the UK since our maniac government announced their plans to spy on everyone in the country.

There are also plans for groups of people to voluntarily CC any government email address in all communications. They can keep changing their email addresses, filter it out, but the people of the UK could crash their systems if it was well coordinated. It they want to know what every person in the UK is talking about, thinking about and doing every minute of every day, we'll tell them. Every time we order a pizza, ever time we put the kettle on, every time we scratch out nuts, we'll send our Stasi a status update to make sure they're kept in the loop.

I don't think the UK government really understands how seriously the people of the country are taking this. I think we'll see massive protests from the people over this illegal spying, both cyber and street.

I would fully expect to see Anon attacking any and all government sites, and any company agreeing to work with the UK Stasi once this comes into effect.

Whilst I wouldn't take part in something like that myself, I have to admit that it would absolutely have my support. This is an attack directly on the freedom and rights of the citizen, and it will not stand.

1 - There are police on the streets "policing" already, but you dont see the criminals giving up their lifestyle. They adapt to the changes and even come up with genious ways to get around and trick the cops. Same goes for cyber-criminals.

2 - Policing the internet is a dumb idea, since its a never ending fight thats already costing too much.

3 - The internet is not a safe place, but it CAN be with proper education. If our children know about the possible dangers of the internet, they can save themselves from a lot of trouble. I think the main problem with today's internet users is that they have no idea why they shouldnt post all that personal information on social networking sites - but they do, and in some cases they are extremely dumb.

4 - Pedophilia existed since humanity existed. The internet just made the problem more visible, and in many cases, it made the identification of both perpetrators and victims a lot easier. There was a case where a child had disappeared in the USA and months later the investigators found a photo of him on a russian pedophile homepage. If it weren't for that homepage, they would still look for the kid in the local bushes and rivers. Now they know exactly what happened to him and can start a proper investigation against a pedophile gang - and maybe find the lost child as well. So if in any way, letting the pedos have their little internet freedom will save more lives than forcing them into even more secrecy and hiding.


The internet is global - and you will need a global police to monitor it. Count how much it will cost.


Just my two cents.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


No, way, they are into too much of our lives, anyway. Maybe the idea is fine for you all over there across the pond, but we real Americans (sheeple not included) like our freedom of speech. Too much of it is already under attack.

As for fraud, it's up to the person to learn what scam is out there so they're not duped by these criminals. Why would we who know what to look for in a scam have to pay for another's stupidity?

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
Isn’t it sad on ATS, that with a membership who for the most part strongly defend the right to freedom of speech that I cannot voice my opinion without insults? In this thread I have been accused of being a coward, a paid shill, a control freak and had my spelling insulted in such a way as to insinuate that I am a hoaxer (dyslexic would be more accurate). Just because I hold different views from you does not make me wrong nor does it excuse pointless juvenile insults that do nothing to add to the debate.

I also find it fascinating that you are proposing and expressing support for exactly what you are complaining about in this post.

You suggest that you should have the freedom to express your opinions, and you do, just as others here have freedom to express their horror at your proposals. But you can't then complain about your rights while demanding that the basic rights of other people be stripped away!

You're obviously not taking into account that these snooping options do not affect real criminals. They can all bypass any and all current methods of snooping. What you are suggesting and supporting will result in many millions of innocent people being watched, while the criminals simply go deeper underground.

Do you think the government doesn't know the statistics? They know that criminals can subvert their plans very easily. That is why it is absolutely clear who these spying methods are aimed at. You and me. The government has think tanks and advisers working on all of this rubbish, and you think they don't know that genuine criminal activity on the internet will not be affected?

They know everything we know about how this will work and who it will harm. It has nothing to do with criminals, and everything to do with stopping protest groups from organizing, preventing political dissent and discussion, gathering data on every person so that when they need it they can use it as evidence/blackmail.

They know that there is a storm of revolution and overthrow sweeping the planet very soon. What happened in Egypt is only the start. This will likely move through all Western nations when the € collapses and they know it. They are using this spying legislation (under numerous names depending on what country you are in) to prevent it.

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
it's time we round up everyone like you and push yall into a volcano

100% Agree...