Reincarnation VS Resurection... Can both be possible?

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by apushforenlightment

 

tell me something; what is the point of non duality?why bother seeking enlightenment when everything is predetermined anyway?

But how can you be sure what is meant to happen? That way of thinking for me leeds to inaction. I understand incation when you are unsure of what to do. That is paradox of percived free will and predestination. What you do is meant to happen but not doing anything leeds to slow change and longer suffering for the whole.

From my pint of view is the same argument that darkness must exist for there to be light. But if you look at the world you notice that it can be very dark and if it can be that then it can evolve to be very light instead.

Enlightenment in itself has little use for the whole of humanity if it is not used for anything. I can easyly be a saint if I want to by removing myself from all humanity and just being one with nature. But that would from my point of view only be a waste of time and not achive anything.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by apushforenlightment

 

tell me something; what is the point of non duality?why bother seeking enlightenment when everything is predetermined anyway?

If everything is predetermined, then seeking enlightenment is something you have no choice but to do, if that is what you end up doing.

That is what predetermined is, you do, are doing, exactly what you are supposed to be doing.

Doesn't mean you know what is next, just that you know now is what is supposed to be.

How else could prophets prophecy?

They say what they say when they are supposed to say it, and it happens when it is supposed to happen.

Originally posted by DeathbecomesLife

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
That is the problem with ego. It comes back and need to be constantly monitored. And you will a hard time discussion spiritual enlightenment if you cant talk about the different level of understanding without being afraid that your ego is in the way. You can judge the mind and ego that I am using to write this but it is just a temporary interface for my spirit and the minds current state of understanding.

If a person shows a judgmental bullying viewpoint and I feel like pushing down his ego then I will do that. In this state of human evolution turning the other check to duality driven viewpoints is nonproductive.

There is one duality on this planet and it is the ones who seek nondualic harmony and the ones who have a very hard time questioning their own viewpoint. Fundamentalistic views need to be questioned at every point or their higher ideals so that true progress can be made. I want humanity to stop playing around with old viewpoints and create the society that is needed where all can live in harmony. But that will probably not be done until the crowd who belive in duality are totaly gone from this planet.

My mind was very smallminded before a spiritual moment so in reality I should not blame them. Sometimes I wish this place was easier to exist in with harmony without duality views. But then this life is a life that I wished I never had experianced and I bet there is others who feel thesame. It is needed but a very bittersweet life. But then nobody said it was easy.

You speak of different levels of understanding. I say there are just different understandings.

Levels create more than duality, they create multiplicity, where your view is on top, not beside others.

If you seek non-duality, eliminate first the multiplicity.

You say you were small minded before a spiritual experience, one that you did not do for yourself.

Then trust that what watched over you and helped you to grow, is also watching over others and helping them where it sees fit.

"I want humanity to stop playing around with old viewpoints and create the society that is needed where all can live in harmony."

Harmony does not mean that ALL will acquiesce to your view, but that you can allow their view while being true to your own.

"If a person shows a judgmental bullying viewpoint and I feel like pushing down his ego then I will do that. In this state of human evolution turning the other check to duality driven viewpoints is nonproductive. "

Then you are perpetuating what you know you do not want.

Some views are clearly not of the devine and should be labeled as it. For instance the notion that homosexuality is a sin that is clearly human made because of fear of the unknown and bullying of people who do not fit the mold.

I like that you have patiance for the people with the excluding views but I do not anymore and I am not supposed to have it. I know that people will not have my views on things but I will no longer be silent to views that are built up by ego of old. There have been enought stagnation from my point of view

I call the views as I see them and will give them the karmamirror of their views when I feel like it.

My way of thinking might paradoxily build up a own excluding view. But at least it is a excluding view against excluding views if that makes any difference.

I have my reasons for doing what I do and behaving like I do.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
I have my reasons for doing what I do and behaving like I do.

Everyone does.

Can we stay on topic, please? As usual, this thread quickly degenerated into acrimony - side issues might be better settled off-thread.

Thank you to most of the members that replied...

Its amazing that i asked for a rational discussion, yet some felt the need to toss insults around and even call me a liar when i made no claims...

Way to stay true to form ATS :shk:

Needless to say i'll be ignoring those people...

Lets take a look at a few passages from the bible that may suggest the existance of reincarnation...

Job 1
20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Job stating he will return to the womb... How is this possible?



Ecclesiastes 1 States "nothing is new under the sun", and all things that have happened will happen again... hinting at the cycle of reincarnation and rebirth.

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.



Now theres plenty more from the OT, but as most people know... the OT is not my thing...

So lets take a quick look at some passages that are "my thing"

In john 1 Jesus' disciples ask him about a man that was blind from birth... They basically ask him why this man was blind assuming he or his parents sin caused it... OF course Jesus has the answer... Gods work is made manifest in him.

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Why would God let him be born blind unless he deserved what he was born with?

Karmic debt from a previous life is the only logical reason...



And back to my previous post concerning John... They asked him if he was Elias, and he said no....

It seems Jesus knew better...

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


More to come...

reply to post by Akragon


I beg your pardon Sir, but here in lies the whole issue of these arguments.

The Bible makes it very clear in several passages that all men are liars and that one is not to listen to any other man for all are blind. The answers lie in each Man's heart and it is there and only there that they will find them.

The secret is that we are all just searching. Therefore, each Man's answer is correct unto himself. If we wish them to see our own perspective, then we must acknowledge theirs as well. So, if you take a step towards moving another from his path and point of view, you are indeed a liar. You are saying put your trust in me, I KNOW.

Now if you do indeed KNOW. Then prove yourself a master first.

Otherwise, point the way to the master and simply help them on their journey.

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife


You are pardoned... but

The Bible makes it very clear in several passages that all men are liars and that one is not to listen to any other man for all are blind.

Would you mind producing said passage... thanks

The secret is that we are all just searching. Therefore, each Man's answer is correct unto himself. If we wish them to see our own perspective, then we must acknowledge theirs as well. So, if you take a step towards moving another from his path and point of view, you are indeed a liar.

Perhaps you might also show me where i said... "all must believe what i post... there is no other truth to behold"

I haven't commented on anyones post in this thread as of yet.... me thinks you best check yourself.

IF what i post has an effect on any person and it "moves him" from his path as you say... i am happy to take full responsibility...

And you are the second person to call me a liar in this thread... You're free to judge me as you will my friend... but i have not made any claims as of yet... i've simply posted a perspective... one that i ask no one to share with me

You are saying put your trust in me, I KNOW.

I know what i know... and i did not say "put your trust in me"...

Who am i?

Now if you do indeed KNOW. Then prove yourself a master first.

Otherwise, point the way to the master and simply help them on their journey.

As i've said, i know what i know... And i have nothing to prove to anyone... take what i say however you like...

And by the way... All i do is point towards the masters...

What more can i do but point the way... ultimately its up to the reader to decide his own path

TRUTH: I do not know what lies after death. I do not recall ever dying.I know I enjoy living. And, I enjoy surprises!

Life was a surprise!

And I have only just started living.

What ever caused this all to be,

I know in my heart what ever comes next is going to be phenomenal.

Originally posted by Akragon
And by the way... All i do is point towards the masters

Are you pointing at them?

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife


Did you read the title of the thread?

This isn't about "the masters" now is it...

IF you're not interested in staying on topic, please find another thread to post in...

And if you're not going to give reponses to my questions, im going to have to ignore you...

I don't like to waste my time replying to oneliners...

Originally posted by Akragon
IF you're not interested in staying on topic, please find another thread to post in..

My appologies for straying off topic. I did reply, but I will elaborate.


Resurrection: Physical resurrection is a scientific and physical fact. This is why we embalm in modern society. So that they dead lasts longer on display and to ensure there will be no resurrections at the funeral.

It is also done ritually in Haitian voodou. The initiates go into a state of death for several days and are reborn as an avatar of the tribal deity they represent.

It is already accepted as fact.


Reincarnation is the spirit of the deceased coming back in new flesh. This is has several convincing arguments and cases that seem to hint at this. The young man who has memories of being a Fighter Pilot for example. However, this evidence can equally be applied to another theory. This is that there is only one "Spirit" which we are all a part of.

If this is true, then any one of us could have fragments of memories from any place in time. We may even evolve to the point where we recognize this on a conscious level. What makes this more sound than reincarnation is there isn't a case of reincarnation that will ever be able to be proven. Why?

Because only you know all the details about you. No one can know enough about you to ever be able to validate anyone else after you die.

We know this instinctively. That is why we learned to write. To tell ourselves about our selves down the road.

But that is all I know the subject. They are my own ponderings, no more valid than anyone else's.

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife


Thank you...

And THAT... is... was and always has been what i've been looking for...

I asked for opinions, not arguements... And definatly not insults...

Welcome to the "rational" side of the discussion which i asked for....

Glad you made it

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife

Resurrection: Physical resurrection is a scientific and physical fact. This is why we embalm in modern society. So that they dead lasts longer on display and to ensure there will be no resurrections at the funeral.

I think that you are confusing the word resurrection for resuscitation.

res·ur·rec·tion (rz-rkshn)
n.
1. The act of rising from the dead or returning to life.
2. The state of one who has returned to life.
3. The act of bringing back to practice, notice, or use; revival.

re·sus·ci·tate/riˈsəsəˌtāt/
Verb:
Revive (someone) from unconsciousness or apparent death.
Make (something such as an idea or enterprise) active or vigorous again.

Resurrection is not a fact.

Embalming isn't done to prevent resurrection. It is done 1) To preserve the body for viewing after being shipped from long distances. 2) Belief that the deceased would be better received in after life.
wiki.answers.com...

Originally posted by windword
I think that you are confusing the word resurrection for resuscitation.

res·ur·rec·tion (rz-rkshn)
n.
1. The act of rising from the dead or returning to life.
2. The state of one who has returned to life.
3. The act of bringing back to practice, notice, or use; revival.

re·sus·ci·tate/riˈsəsəˌtāt/
Verb:
Revive (someone) from unconsciousness or apparent death.
Make (something such as an idea or enterprise) active or vigorous again.

Resurrection is not a fact.

It may not be a fact to you. However, I have observed it myself. If you would like to see it and experience it yourself, go through a voodou initiation or even research it for it has been tested. The initiate does enter into a state of medical death. Alternatively, you can take my word on it as the expert on the matter or even just ignore my point of view.

Originally posted by windword
Embalming isn't done to prevent resurrection. It is done 1) To preserve the body for viewing after being shipped from long distances. 2) Belief that the deceased would be better received in after life.
wiki.answers.com...

Perhaps you may want to look into the practice of installing bell pulls into coffins.

Based on what I have seen and observed, I have presented the facts.

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife

It may not be a fact to you. However, I have observed it myself. If you would like to see it and experience it yourself, go through a voodou initiation or even research it for it has been tested. The initiate does enter into a state of medical death. Alternatively, you can take my word on it as the expert on the matter or even just ignore my point of view.

HAHA! Okay,

Shush, I did my initiation in the '60's and '70's. Cough cough LS cough D. Ahem, shromms, cough, cough.

Been resurrected myself, (a few times) if you want to talk like that.......

Don't give yourself over to the psychos, that's for sure!

Back to the topic at hand...

There is a text called "The Coptic Apocalypse of Paul"... it is a gnostic text and pertains to the subject of "reincarnation"

Now it is likely not from "the appostle paul's" hand, though its very possible it came from followers of Paul... passed down through oral traditions...

Its interesting to note that within this text the author speaks about being "caught up" into several "heavens"

Now compare this text with what is written by Paul (apparently) within the bible...

In 2 corinthians 12

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Here in the aforementioned text, again you see the author being "caught up" into several heavens... but in this he sees a person who is being judged for his crimes on earth... and then thrown down "into a body that was prepared for him"

Then the Holy Spirit who was speaking with him caught him up on high to the third heaven, and he passed beyond to the fourth heaven. The Holy Spirit spoke to him, saying, "Look and see your likeness upon the earth." And he looked down and saw those who were upon the earth. He stared and saw those who were upon the [...]. Then he gazed down and saw the twelve apostles at his right and at his left in the creation; and the Spirit was going before them.

But I saw in the fourth heaven according to class - I saw the angels resembling gods, the angels bringing a soul out of the land of the dead. They placed it at the gate of the fourth heaven. And the angels were whipping it. The soul spoke, saying, "What sin was it that I committed in the world?" The toll-collector who dwells in the fourth heaven replied, saying, "It was not right to commit all those lawless deeds that are in the world of the dead". The soul replied, saying, "Bring witnesses! Let them show you in what body I committed lawless deeds. Do you wish to bring a book to read from?"

And the three witnesses came. The first spoke, saying, "Was I not in the body the second hour [...]? I rose up against you until you fell into anger and rage and envy." And the second spoke, saying, "Was I not in the world? And I entered at the fifth hour, and I saw you and desired you. And behold, then, now I charge you with the murders you committed." The third spoke, saying, "Did I not come to you at the twelfth hour of the day when the sun was about to set? I gave you darkness until you should accomplish your sins." When the soul heard these things, it gazed downward in sorrow. And then it gazed upward. It was cast down. The soul that had been cast down went to a body which had been prepared for it. And behold, its witnesses were finished.

www.gnosis.org...

One might also compare this text to "the wisdom of Solomon" In which you'll find this verse...

I had a pleasant personality even as a child. I had been fortunate enough to receive a good soul, or rather, I was given a sound body to live in because I was already good.[b/]20 Still, I realized that I would never receive Wisdom unless God gave her to me—and knowing that only God could give her to me was itself a sign of understanding. So I prayed, begging the Lord with all my heart:

For what it's worth, the priest in the EO church I attended taught that heaven is right here with normal human bodies. So that makes resurrection very similar to reincarnation except that the whole universe is reincarnated at once.