I think that the definition is wrong. This is similar to capitalism throughout history but the definition doesn't really fit those either. The
definition is flawed. This is not pure capitalism anyway, a blend of many things especially greed at the high levels. Small businesses have a hard
time making ends meet because big chains with buying power steal away all the customers. This system is being structured to get people dependent on
big business. What is that called?
America Is Not a Capitalist Country!, page 1
Topic started on 8-6-2012 @ 10:17 PM by hawkiye
We hear a lot about the evils of Capitalism these days however this is really a great conspiracy to blame capitalism for the evils of
socialism/corporatism/communism/fascism which are all slices of the same pie. We have not had true free market capitalism in America for over a
hundred years.
This new belief is especially prevalent among the younger generation coming up. Now I know a bunch of posters are going to jump on here and want to do some drive by postings about the evils of capitalism etc. Please don't if you want to argue against it then refute the points and links with evidence logic and reason instead of unsubstantive anti-capitalist talking points from some website or media outlet.
Here is a great website that really explains the difference that all should read:
I will post more excerpts from this site from time to time on this thread and in answer to some of the posts on it also.
This new belief is especially prevalent among the younger generation coming up. Now I know a bunch of posters are going to jump on here and want to do some drive by postings about the evils of capitalism etc. Please don't if you want to argue against it then refute the points and links with evidence logic and reason instead of unsubstantive anti-capitalist talking points from some website or media outlet.
Here is a great website that really explains the difference that all should read:
1. Aren't coercive monopolies a natural product of laissez-faire capitalism?famguardian.org...
No.
One of the most common fallacies about laissez-faire capitalism is that it inevitably leads to the formation of monopolies, so this topic deserves special attention. To find out why this assumption is false we must ask: what are monopolies? and where do they come from?
A coercive monopoly is exclusive control in a field of production, completely exempt from competition and the normal laws of supply and demand. The only reason competition could ever be absolutely barred is because the monopolist is benefiting from what is called a "barrier of entry." These barriers, however, can only come from one place: the government. It is only a government which has the power to "raise" a business above the laws of the market. In a free market, all businesses are subject to competition, and therefore must constantly be competing to stay ahead of their competition. But when the government grants a certain business a franchise, subsidy, or tariff protection, competition is legally barred. In other words, government interference into the free market is the real source of all coercive monopolies.
I will post more excerpts from this site from time to time on this thread and in answer to some of the posts on it also.
edit on 8-6-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)
edit on Sat Jun 9 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because:
IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS
reply posted on 8-6-2012 @ 10:45 PM by KnawLick
reply to post by hawkiye
People will mislabel our government "socialist" when in reality the closest comparison economically is Italian facism, or corporatism. It's a model where the state and corporations work as one, not as rivals. China is a good example of this model.
I'm speaking purely economically though.
People will mislabel our government "socialist" when in reality the closest comparison economically is Italian facism, or corporatism. It's a model where the state and corporations work as one, not as rivals. China is a good example of this model.
I'm speaking purely economically though.
reply posted on 8-6-2012 @ 10:50 PM by hawkiye
Originally posted by KnawLick
reply to post by hawkiye
People will mislabel our government "socialist" when in reality the closest comparison economically is Italian facism, or corporatism. It's a model where the state and corporations work as one, not as rivals. China is a good example of this model.
I'm speaking purely economically though.
I would agree we are more the fascist/corporatism model but that is a form of socialism as government still has control of the means of production of goods and services. Nazi Germany were called national socialist. They all claim it is for the good of the whole which is the foundations of socialism...
4. Is the United States of America a capitalist nation?famguardian.org...
No.
Capitalism means the complete separation of economy and state, and the American economy is far from being separate from the American state. Minimum wage laws, all public "services," and regulatory agencies (such as the FDA and the EPA) are all anti-capitalistic because they represent the government interfering into the economy, infringing upon the voluntary association of individuals, and thereby violating their rights (which are the foundations of capitalism).
America can properly be referred to as a "mixed economy," which is a mixture of freedom and controls, or free market and socialist policies. In its founding principles the United States of America is a capitalist nation, but one need only to look at history to see how the founding principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness were violated from the outset (and especially since the "New Deal") through an ever expanding government encroaching on people's political and economic freedoms.
It cannot be stressed enough that it was capitalism that led a small group of colonies to become the most powerful and productive nation on earth in less than one hundred and fifty years.
Pretty accurate...
edit on 8-6-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)
edit on Sat Jun 9 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because:
IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS
reply posted on 8-6-2012 @ 11:13 PM by KnawLick
reply to post by hawkiye
Yeah... But you are saying national socialism (nazism) and italian facism (corporatism) are the same thing. There not. In corporatism the government doesn't take over any means of production they just work in unison with corporations. Example, in a socialist system the government would have taken over GM factories. In a Corporatist system (like ours), the government buys stock and a voice at the table, but doesn't take the company over. Is this not what we did? Basically we just bought a veto power of the GM board, we didn't put politicians in as CEO.
So yes, they are very different. If you look at them closely.
Yeah... But you are saying national socialism (nazism) and italian facism (corporatism) are the same thing. There not. In corporatism the government doesn't take over any means of production they just work in unison with corporations. Example, in a socialist system the government would have taken over GM factories. In a Corporatist system (like ours), the government buys stock and a voice at the table, but doesn't take the company over. Is this not what we did? Basically we just bought a veto power of the GM board, we didn't put politicians in as CEO.
So yes, they are very different. If you look at them closely.
reply posted on 8-6-2012 @ 11:44 PM by hawkiye
reply to post by KnawLick
No I did not say they were the same however The Nazi's and Italian Fascism were pretty close Corporations did not run things in Italy they took orders from Mussolini.
If you read my previous posts I said this is more how we work. It really doesn't matter whether the government directly takes over or they allow politically connected corporations to run things they both do it by government enforced monopoly. As I said they are all slices of the same pie . We are splitting hairs IMO to worry about their differences to much. It's what they have in common that screws us all and that is government enforced monopolies
Yeah... But you are saying national socialism (nazism) and italian facism (corporatism) are the same thing.
No I did not say they were the same however The Nazi's and Italian Fascism were pretty close Corporations did not run things in Italy they took orders from Mussolini.
In corporatism the government doesn't take over any means of production they just work in unison with corporations. Example, in a socialist system the government would have taken over GM factories. In a Corporatist system (like ours), the government buys stock and a voice at the table, but doesn't take the company over. Is this not what we did? Basically we just bought a veto power of the GM board, we didn't put politicians in as CEO.
If you read my previous posts I said this is more how we work. It really doesn't matter whether the government directly takes over or they allow politically connected corporations to run things they both do it by government enforced monopoly. As I said they are all slices of the same pie . We are splitting hairs IMO to worry about their differences to much. It's what they have in common that screws us all and that is government enforced monopolies
reply posted on 9-6-2012 @ 12:09 AM by KnawLick
reply to post by hawkiye
True.. I think we are agreeing basically. Capitalism in its most pure form I'd say was America doing the 1920s era. This was maybe the last time in history capitalism was practiced.
True.. I think we are agreeing basically. Capitalism in its most pure form I'd say was America doing the 1920s era. This was maybe the last time in history capitalism was practiced.
reply posted on 10-6-2012 @ 12:00 AM by hawkiye
Originally posted by KnawLick
reply to post by hawkiye
True.. I think we are agreeing basically. Capitalism in its most pure form I'd say was America doing the 1920s era. This was maybe the last time in history capitalism was practiced.
Probably from the late 19th century after the civil war up till about 1913 when the federal reserve act was passed giving the banking cartel a monopoly on the monetary system, just 18 years later we had the worst depression in history and its been down hill ever since.
reply posted on 10-6-2012 @ 03:38 AM by hawkiye
reply to post by daskakik
Pot meet kettle. The real definition of capitalism is free markets or laissez-fair market driven free enterprise, capital goes where it is best utilized by consumer choice not by government mandate or central control. It in fact is the true system where the workers and consumers control the means of production by the freedom to chose the best products and services with their wallets and their feet. If a product is worthy of their choice it will be capitalized by them if it is not they will vote against it with their feet and go elsewhere. Enter government that limits choice and stifles freedom and even forces consumers to buy what they would not if they were free to chose and you get what we have today call it what you will.
You want to confine me to a narrow definition of true socialism but want a broad bastardized incorrect definition of capitalism and say I cannot use the true definition of capitalism. Sorry you can't have it both ways. True capitalism is market driven that cannot happen in any of the other systems that use government force.
You say socialism can exist without government, name where it has without some sort of force or coercion? It has failed miserably in every instance and either abandoned or force was brought to bear to try and make it work and it still failed.
You can call corporatism/fascism capitalism if you like but you might as well call a pig a horse its still a pig! By the way you illustrate the conspiracy and how effective the brainwashing of the media is they have successfully labeled socialism/corporatism/communism/fascism as capitalism in the minds of the sheeple.
The real definition of socialism is the workers control of the means of production. The fact that no system calling itself socialist has ever had the workers control the means of production only means that they were not really socialist.
Pot meet kettle. The real definition of capitalism is free markets or laissez-fair market driven free enterprise, capital goes where it is best utilized by consumer choice not by government mandate or central control. It in fact is the true system where the workers and consumers control the means of production by the freedom to chose the best products and services with their wallets and their feet. If a product is worthy of their choice it will be capitalized by them if it is not they will vote against it with their feet and go elsewhere. Enter government that limits choice and stifles freedom and even forces consumers to buy what they would not if they were free to chose and you get what we have today call it what you will.
You want to confine me to a narrow definition of true socialism but want a broad bastardized incorrect definition of capitalism and say I cannot use the true definition of capitalism. Sorry you can't have it both ways. True capitalism is market driven that cannot happen in any of the other systems that use government force.
You say socialism can exist without government, name where it has without some sort of force or coercion? It has failed miserably in every instance and either abandoned or force was brought to bear to try and make it work and it still failed.
You can call corporatism/fascism capitalism if you like but you might as well call a pig a horse its still a pig! By the way you illustrate the conspiracy and how effective the brainwashing of the media is they have successfully labeled socialism/corporatism/communism/fascism as capitalism in the minds of the sheeple.
edit on 10-6-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 10-6-2012 @ 04:24 AM by ANOK
reply to post by hawkiye
Sorry but not going to read all that, don't need to in order to respond to 'America Is Not a Capitalist Country!'
Of course it is.
Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. An economic system, not a political system, or the government we have. Just like socialism is an economic system, not a form of government.
The term 'capitalism' was first used, by the French socialist Louis Blanc who defined it as, "the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others". Marx redefined it later as, "the private ownership of the means of production", which is still the accepted definition. It's the system that replaced feudalism.
Industry in the US is predominately privately owned. You have some nationalized industry, just like any country. You have a very small amount of socialism, as in worker owned companies. Capitalism is overwhelmingly the main economic model, to the point the US government/state is controlled by capitalist interests.
You can blame it on anything you want, but when it comes down to it the problems of an unstable economy come from the private ownership of the means to produce. A system based on exploitation of the majority to make profit for a minority, a system that does not meet our needs.
Sorry but not going to read all that, don't need to in order to respond to 'America Is Not a Capitalist Country!'
Of course it is.
Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. An economic system, not a political system, or the government we have. Just like socialism is an economic system, not a form of government.
The term 'capitalism' was first used, by the French socialist Louis Blanc who defined it as, "the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others". Marx redefined it later as, "the private ownership of the means of production", which is still the accepted definition. It's the system that replaced feudalism.
Industry in the US is predominately privately owned. You have some nationalized industry, just like any country. You have a very small amount of socialism, as in worker owned companies. Capitalism is overwhelmingly the main economic model, to the point the US government/state is controlled by capitalist interests.
You can blame it on anything you want, but when it comes down to it the problems of an unstable economy come from the private ownership of the means to produce. A system based on exploitation of the majority to make profit for a minority, a system that does not meet our needs.
reply posted on 10-6-2012 @ 04:30 AM by hawkiye
Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by hawkiye
Sorry but not going to read all that, don't need to in order to respond to 'America Is Not a Capitalist Country!'
Of course it is.
Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. An economic system, not a political system, or the government we have. Just like socialism is an economic system, not a form of government.
The term 'capitalism' was first used, by the French socialist Louis Blanc who defined it as, "the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others". Marx redefined it later as, "the private ownership of the means of production", which is still the accepted definition. It's the system that replaced feudalism.
Industry in the US is predominately privately owned. You have some nationalized industry, just like any country. You have a very small amount of socialism, as in worker owned companies. Capitalism is overwhelmingly the main economic model, to the point the US government/state is controlled by capitalist interests.
You can blame it on anything you want, but when it comes down to it the problems of an unstable economy come from the private ownership of the means to produce. A system based on exploitation of the majority to make profit for a minority, a system that does not meet our needs.
Typical sigh "I am not going to read it" but thinks he knows what is said. When government intervenes in the market and stifles market forces the means of production are no longer private they are government controlled. We can split hairs on by what degree but it amounts to the same thing. America is not a capitalist country! And your description of America is outdated by about 80 years!
reply posted on 10-6-2012 @ 01:06 PM by hawkiye
reply to post by ANOK
Most of what is done by government is for politically connected cronies that is anything but capitalism it is fascism. And by the way when government intervenes in the market in favor of the politically connected that is effectively and for all practical purposes a government take over of all business. You may think you still own your business just like most people think they own their homes but is is not true and you are at the mercy of government but hey you still own the business LOL
.
Capitalism keeps power with the people allowing them to dictate which businesses stay viable based on the quality of products or services they produce... State government has rogue power because of corruption fraud and ignorance.
I guess you figure if you just repeat the propaganda over and over and it will be true...Sigh. Actually I know what you are doing you are trolling the thread trying to nitpick insignificant differences in the various versions of socialism and insisting on labeling them forms of capitalism to disrupt it. If you claim you are not then you have said your piece we get your opinion and you can move on. But something tells me you will continue to repeat the same non-sense over and over ad nausea...
Most of what goes on in government is done for the benefit of capitalists, even if it appears to stifle markets. Capitalism is not markets, capitalists manipulate the market constantly to maintain their domination. The state/government only has power because of capitalism, and it will serve it's provider well. It did an excellent job of demonizing socialism, and turning liberalism into the neo-socialism. They tried that in the UK in the early 1900's with the Liberal Party. Liberalism is not socialism.
Most of what is done by government is for politically connected cronies that is anything but capitalism it is fascism. And by the way when government intervenes in the market in favor of the politically connected that is effectively and for all practical purposes a government take over of all business. You may think you still own your business just like most people think they own their homes but is is not true and you are at the mercy of government but hey you still own the business LOL
. Capitalism keeps power with the people allowing them to dictate which businesses stay viable based on the quality of products or services they produce... State government has rogue power because of corruption fraud and ignorance.
I guess you figure if you just repeat the propaganda over and over and it will be true...Sigh. Actually I know what you are doing you are trolling the thread trying to nitpick insignificant differences in the various versions of socialism and insisting on labeling them forms of capitalism to disrupt it. If you claim you are not then you have said your piece we get your opinion and you can move on. But something tells me you will continue to repeat the same non-sense over and over ad nausea...
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