abioGenesis hypothesis: scientific or just a silly idea? What say you?

Originally posted by TheCelestialHuman
I enjoyed the little cartoons.. However, saying that it all came from god, only puts the question back one step further and accomplishes nothing.. Where did this creator come from? Who created the creator, and who created that creator. You end up with an infinite regression of the same questions.

Apply that chain of reasoning to the other side of the argument. Where were the first molecules floating at which created the big bang? How did they come into existence? What was around before they came into existence? Whatever was around before that, where did it come from?

There has to be some end point, some absolute pinnacle, to which everything can be connected which had no predecessor of any kind, no matter what kind of belief one holds. To me, it is more wonderful to know that God is that pinnacle. He is the origin of EVERYTHING.

Originally posted by jeramie

Originally posted by TheCelestialHuman
I enjoyed the little cartoons.. However, saying that it all came from god, only puts the question back one step further and accomplishes nothing.. Where did this creator come from? Who created the creator, and who created that creator. You end up with an infinite regression of the same questions.

Apply that chain of reasoning to the other side of the argument. Where were the first molecules floating at which created the big bang? How did they come into existence? What was around before they came into existence? Whatever was around before that, where did it come from?

There has to be some end point, some absolute pinnacle, to which everything can be connected which had no predecessor of any kind, no matter what kind of belief one holds. To me, it is more wonderful to know that God is that pinnacle. He is the origin of EVERYTHING.

And that's your BELIEF...a belief which isn't based on facts, which is fine. There's only really a problem if you try to sell your belief as fact like some unnamed people in this thread.

As for the answers to your questions...scientists simply don't know (yet). But that doesn't mean you can simply fill that gap in knowledge with "magic" and pretend that's a fact.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by edmc^2

 

How did a “goat herder” (as you referred to) get the facts right?

How did he knew that the universe (heavens) and the earth had a beginning whereas these scientific facts were known just recently (1900s)?

How could a man 3500 years ago be able say, write what science just recently discovered?

If these ancient writings are what you say they are - "ancient superstition", how in the world did the writer knew what we know now?

In short where did the information come from?

1) That "goat herder" got tons of facts demonstrably wrong

2) Given that no explanation of why he (more like "they") thought it had a beginning, we don't know...a guess? Either way, the universe as we know it had a beginning, but given that we don't know what was before it (or what happened in the first split seconds after the big bang), saying "everything had a beginning can't be proven.

3) The bible has hundreds of things demonstrably wrong when it comes to science...and given the amount of stuff in there it's no wonder that they got the occasional thing right

4) Clearly the writer (again, more than one) got so much wrong and never provides any objective evidence for his claims that I don't get why you are so surprised.

5) Lucky guesses, superstition, ...

Again, what about the hundreds of cases where the bible is scientifically wrong?

Harry Potter gets some stuff right too, doesn't mean you can therefore ride on brooms

edit on 20-8-2012 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

So a lucky guess is your explanation of how a "goat herder" got the information right. yeah right.

A "goat herder" was able to guess what took thousands of years to figure out by people of advanced scientific knowledge and space age instruments.

Lucky guess, right. But hey if that's what you believe then so be it, at least you've admitted the "goat herder" got it right.

As for:

By the way, since we are doing questions now:

Present us with one example where there's positive objective (!!!) evidence that some sort of higher being created anything. No stupid philosophy arguments, real scientific evidence is what I'm after...

Unfortunately if you haven't figured it out yet at this point - then you'll never figure it out.

reply to post by edmc^2


In other words:

A) You still completely ignore all the stuff that's DEMONSTRABLY wrong in the bible.
B) "If you haven't figured it out..." is just your cheap way to wiggle yourself out of having to answer the question...a question you clearly can't answer.

Originally posted by edmc^2
The "factually accurate" event I'm talking about is the beginning of the Universe and the earth.

The Big Bang Theory, The Singularity!

Do you doubt this event?

I'm curious to know.

I can name some more but let's stick to the "Big Bang/Singularity" for the moment.

So because the universe as we know it began at some point, it proves the bible's version of creation correct? How does the big bang prove the age of the bible stories and verify the accuracy of the stories. You can't be serious with that.

reply to post by MrXYZ


"Present us with one example where there's positive objective (!!!) evidence that some sort of higher being created anything. No stupid philosophy arguments, real scientific evidence is what I'm after.."


The universe exists somewhere,, it is constructed out of material and obeys laws,.,....,

in the universe and of the universe,,, naturally arising is mankind....

mankind can construct things using information and material.,..,

mankind did not construct the universe.,..

therefore, in my mind at least,.,. there is a possibility that something similar to mankind ( in that it can use information and material to construct something which contains order) created this universe...


Can you please provide an example of objective evidence which proves that a God could not have possibly created the universe?

reply to post by MrXYZ





imagine in scale a god being the size of the universe, compared to the universe being the size of a galaxy...

is it possible that the universe is a particle accelerating experiment in a vacuum, sponsored by god?

and this god may not be the most perfect entity to ever live,,, but if it did create the universe,,, what it created for us,, including us,,, is a pretty good example of what to aim for,, in terms of potential and perfection.....

I am on the side of science,,, what can you do with my proposition? will it store your food over the summer or fly your family across a sea? no..... so although fanciful ideas may be true,, we have our own immediate existence and our part in the play of the progression of humankind to worry about,,, imagining those ideas as true does nothing for us,,, if anything i can imagine the god in those true ideas would, after pondering them for a moment, want us to move along,, and continue our lives for ourselves.,.,, We are not the directors of the masterpiece movie "universe",,, we are characters,,,, but in our scene on planet earth,, we are given the privilege to direct our own lives,,, and potentially many more,,, the wild and vicious natural order of earth, to a caring, graceful, peaceful baby girl is something of a horror show,.,.,. out of our own values we changed the shape of nature to fit our own values and potential,.,.,. not to say what we have done is perfect,,, for we are now trapped in a sitcom......with a laugh track.....

reply to post by ImaFungi


You can't prove a negative. Fact is, there's ZERO objective evidence that a creator even exists, so pretending he/she/it is a fact is silly...and a prime example of God of the gaps.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

You can't prove a negative. Fact is, there's ZERO objective evidence that a creator even exists, so pretending he/she/it is a fact is silly...and a prime example of God of the gaps.

to me the evidence that the universe exists is 50% chance that a creator created it....

reply to post by MrXYZ


I asked this question before on another thread and no one answered ( you can call it stupid,, and silly, and call me all sorts of things,, but it would be nice if you also answered)


Do you think if a cat could consciously communicate it would believe in a creator of the universe? a monkey? if it would state that it is possible a god created the universe it inhabits, would you call it stupid and think it stupid for stating their belief without having enough capacity and information to know that there does not need to be a god? if another with the same information as the believer, believed there is no god and there does not have to be one, would you agree with it because thats what you believe ? and thats what you believe the current level of data and information tells you to believe?

neither the believer cat, atheist cat or monkey,, or you and I know the truth.....

Can you imagine it at all possible for a God to create our universe?

if you cannot imagine it possible,, is that why you do not believe one did? because the thought of something capable of doing that,, to you,, is literally unbelievable?

reply to post by ImaFungi


It doesn't matter what they believe given the ABSOLUTE lack of objective evidence proving their claims. The "God did it" track record is awful! In the past people attributed floods or lightning to God because they didn't understand it...but they were clearly wrong.

I'd like to think that in the 21st century we can finally stop filling gaps in knowledge with magic...especially given that the "god did it" argument lacks any real objective evidence.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

It doesn't matter what they believe given the ABSOLUTE lack of objective evidence proving their claims. The "God did it" track record is awful! In the past people attributed floods or lightning to God because they didn't understand it...but they were clearly wrong.

I'd like to think that in the 21st century we can finally stop filling gaps in knowledge with magic...especially given that the "god did it" argument lacks any real objective evidence.

Ohh now i see.... you were arguing against your own interpretation of god.... If you look back at my side of the "argument".. you will note that i dont mention man,, his religion, his attributions, his beliefs,, or anything,,, only the fact that a universe exists,, and so that leads to me believe ( especially with how it is established and what it is capable of, its all around impressiveness) that "something" which I do not know, nor am worthy enough to give attributes,, may have intended to create the universe...

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

It doesn't matter what they believe given the ABSOLUTE lack of objective evidence proving their claims. The "God did it" track record is awful! In the past people attributed floods or lightning to God because they didn't understand it...but they were clearly wrong.

I'd like to think that in the 21st century we can finally stop filling gaps in knowledge with magic...especially given that the "god did it" argument lacks any real objective evidence.

Ohh now i see.... you were arguing against your own interpretation of god.... If you look back at my side of the "argument".. you will note that i dont mention man,, his religion, his attributions, his beliefs,, or anything,,, only the fact that a universe exists,, and so that leads to me believe ( especially with how it is established and what it is capable of, its all around impressiveness) that "something" which I do not know, nor am worthy enough to give attributes,, may have intended to create the universe...

Doesn't change the FACT that you attribute it to some intelligence while providing ZERO objective evidence to prove that claim

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

It doesn't matter what they believe given the ABSOLUTE lack of objective evidence proving their claims. The "God did it" track record is awful! In the past people attributed floods or lightning to God because they didn't understand it...but they were clearly wrong.

I'd like to think that in the 21st century we can finally stop filling gaps in knowledge with magic...especially given that the "god did it" argument lacks any real objective evidence.

Ohh now i see.... you were arguing against your own interpretation of god.... If you look back at my side of the "argument".. you will note that i dont mention man,, his religion, his attributions, his beliefs,, or anything,,, only the fact that a universe exists,, and so that leads to me believe ( especially with how it is established and what it is capable of, its all around impressiveness) that "something" which I do not know, nor am worthy enough to give attributes,, may have intended to create the universe...

Doesn't change the FACT that you attribute it to some intelligence while providing ZERO objective evidence to prove that claim

Its organized in a manner that seems like an intelligence may be responsible for its manner of organization,,,. it produces what we know as intelligence,.,. I think it would be difficult for an intelligence we are familiar with on earth to have established the universe so that it may turn out the way it did and allow for all the things it did,, including human life on earth and what humans can do,,, and assumingly all life and potential civilizations of life on other planets as well,, meaning I do not think a human intelligence could come up with the aesthetics and physics, and chemistry, and geometry, and metaphysics of the universe from scratch,,, therefor I posit that an intelligence of greater power and knowing, initiated this universe into existence,,

reply to post by MrXYZ


If It turns out there is an intelligent creator of this universe.... lets pretend there is for a fact,.,..

that doesnt change anything for us in regards to perceiving the physical universe,, it still is as it is,,,

so knowing exactly how the universe is ( and according to this thought experiment, knowing that a creator did create the universe) how would you expect me to objectively prove to you the creator did create it? because as I see it,, this is what you are asking me to do

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

If It turns out there is an intelligent creator of this universe.... lets pretend there is for a fact,.,..

that doesnt change anything for us in regards to perceiving the physical universe,, it still is as it is,,,

so knowing exactly how the universe is ( and according to this thought experiment, knowing that a creator did create the universe) how would you expect me to objectively prove to you the creator did create it? because as I see it,, this is what you are asking me to do

edit on 21-8-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

But again, why are you trying to fill a gap in knowledge with magic? You have zero objective evidence to prove your claim, just like the guys who claimed God is responsible for floods.

At least the scientists studying abiogenesis are conducting real experiments looking for evidence. Your argument on the other hand is based on the God of the gaps, the argument from complexity, and "well, it MIGHT be possible".

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

If It turns out there is an intelligent creator of this universe.... lets pretend there is for a fact,.,..

that doesnt change anything for us in regards to perceiving the physical universe,, it still is as it is,,,

so knowing exactly how the universe is ( and according to this thought experiment, knowing that a creator did create the universe) how would you expect me to objectively prove to you the creator did create it? because as I see it,, this is what you are asking me to do

edit on 21-8-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

But again, why are you trying to fill a gap in knowledge with magic? You have zero objective evidence to prove your claim, just like the guys who claimed God is responsible for floods.

At least the scientists studying abiogenesis are conducting real experiments looking for evidence. Your argument on the other hand is based on the God of the gaps, the argument from complexity, and "well, it MIGHT be possible".

you are right there is no way to test my hypothesis other then traveling back in time to the moment before the big bang,, or dying,.,,,.

I am not filling the gap of knowledge with magic,,, unless you think the cause of everything science discovers is a magician,, as ive been saying i prefer to call it an intelligent creator,,

"at least the scientists are....." I have nothing against science or scientists,, ive said this if you read my earlier posts,.,. Im merely stating there is a chance an intelligent creator created the universe,,, and if that were true or not there is nothing you could do about it,,, except trying to gather the evidence required to prove it true or false,, or die....

reply to post by ImaFungi


As long as you don't pretend your BELIEF is fact or somehow proven that's not a problem...

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

As long as you don't pretend your BELIEF is fact or somehow proven that's not a problem...

As long as you don't pretend your BELIEF ( there is no god) is fact or somehow proven that's not a problem...

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

As long as you don't pretend your BELIEF is fact or somehow proven that's not a problem...

As long as you don't pretend your BELIEF ( there is no god) is fact or somehow proven that's not a problem...

edit on 21-8-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

Of course I can't know for sure...just like I can't know whether there are really no unicorns