Christianity in one word: Anti-homosexual

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
YOU are a man. Christians are men.
You and THEY are EQUAL.
Now say you are sorry for being a Christianaphobe and move on FX.
I guarantee your flags will double or more.

Christians are men and women actually...(pedantic..sry, but had to be done. heh)
Yes, my subjective opinion is equal to someone elses opposing opinion when there is no ding ding ding right answer...when its all just opinions.

I don't know what a christianaphobe is...but shouldn't it just be christaphobe for ease anyhow?
I don't fear christians, nor do I fear christianity. that makes no sense...I used to be one...arguably I still am likened to a christian to a certain extent (not in the deitycentric style, but the honoring the core morality it teaches as best possible...no need to toss the baby out with the bathwater)

I don't care for flags...if I did, I would just make a ton of political threads..those tend to rake in flags.
I do like stars though..they are tasty.

reply to post by SaturnFX


There are really no right or correct answers for all, everyone.
All is relative and evolving. I am sure most here understand that.
Understanding and acceptance minus the judgement is good humanity
IMO of course.
That's what good ole Downybrooks are all about.
Peace ljb

A few Comments

First I see excessive Evidence of a powerful, wise, intelligent being(s) when I look at the intricate Design present on both a minute and grand scale throughout this universe in which we live. Science Confirms the enourmous amount of information encoded into a single biological cell. If anyone is truly Logical, you would have to assume that this Information did not Self originate, self organize, or self compile.

Second, Regarding the actions of God in the days of the old testement. I obviously must speculate a bit in this regard and cannot prove the following, however..

After the Fall in the Garden, God cursed the serpant(satan) and prophecied that the Seed of the Woman would one day Crush his head and that Satan would forever be at war with this Seed.

Satan then set out to Corrupt the Lineage of Man in order to prevent this Promised Seed from coming to fruition. In the old testament this is seen when Fallen Angels take the woman of the earth and breed with them, producing Giants(nephilim) and other corruptions of the Original creation of Mankind.
Some ancient non biblical texts even speak of the "gods" coming down and attempting to cross breed humans with animals and the like.

Basically Satan set out to destroy and corrupt the very DNA that made humans, human. In an effort to prevent his destruction via the Seed as it was Promised.

I believe the Ancient world was wildly different then most peoples current perception of it.

Satan nearly succeded in this plan. Noah and his immediate family ended up being the ONLY ones left that had not become Corrupted on a genetic level by Satan and his ilk. It is said that he was Blameless in his generation, in the sense that he was still Pure and fully Human. The Flood then was Gods judgement on the Ancient world to wipe out the Genetic corruption and in essence Start over.

After the Flood it says in the bible that the Nephilim came back, and Satan once again was attempting to destroy the lineage of Christ.

God then choose Abraham to preserve the lineage through him and to use his offspring to bring forward the promised seed that was Christ.

When God brought the Hebrews out of Egypt, I believe that there were still bastions of civilizations that were a direct result of Satans continued attempts at manipulating human DNA.

The Law that God gave through Moses was in many ways specifically designed to Protect the Hebrews from becoming corrupted by the inhabitants of the "Promised Land". Thus God used Israel as a weapon of Judgment upon many Cities and Peoples as then made their trek out of Egypt.

Gods commands them to wipe out entire cities, including all woman, children and livestock. This, in my opinion, was purposed to prevent Israel from taking any Woman as wives or intermingling their own animals with any possible source of corruption in those lands.

The strict adherence to the Law given to the hebrews was needed in that time and its purpose was to successfully bring about the Seed that was Christ. This is why Christ said that he fulfilled the Law... not only in its letter, but also in its purpose.

Christ instituted a new Age by establishing a Church built not with human hands but by the Spirit of God.

Which brings us to Paul,

One point that I might make regarding the new testament. The new Testament does not refer to Itself as being scripture, rather whenever Christ or anyone else is speaking of scripture, it is referring to the Torrah. Paul was writing to specific churches in his day in specific Cities. Such as those in Corinth, or Ephesus. He did consider his writing to be according to the spirit of God and mentions as much in a number of places. However he would not have called it Scripture.

The new testament is a Witness through the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to the coming of the Promised Seed that is Christ. It is a witness that can either be believed or rejected, but it is not consider Scripture in the Strictest sense.

Paul then is essentially an Early Church historian and one of the First major Theologians. That is, he is giving us his understanding of what Christs coming meant for the Church in his Age and in the Ages to come. I personally believe his understanding of the Law and Gospel far exceeds my own and I would be very hesitant to oppose Paul on any point of Doctrine. However, I do not believe that Paul expected his Letters to real Churchs of his day to be considered the "inherent word of God". And I think it is a mistake to hold it up as such.

The bottom line then is that Each Christian is guided in his understanding according to the Power of the Holy Spirit. We get it wrong when we attempt to use our own understanding of things and make up our own perceptions of Theology. Unfortunately we are very good at getting things wrong.. hence the many different sects and subsects.

How we relate to the Law given to the Hebrews is a whole other discussion...

Originally posted by SoulReaper
A few Comments

First I see excessive Evidence of a powerful, wise, intelligent being(s) when I look at the intricate Design present on both a minute and grand scale throughout this universe in which we live.

Wanted to just comment on this bit here (no need to go into a mega response hitting all the points...but will kick the ball a little bit just to demonstrate something.

Personally, I find the weather patterns on earth to be a intricate design..sorry...lemme cap that, Design.
Now
If I seen it, but had no clue of the science behind it, I would point to it and go "look, see...only a deity could do such complexity and intricate designing!"
Then I would learn about the science behind it..pressure systems, percipitation, etc..aka, realizing there is nothing paranormal or spiritual about it..its all accounted for. A bunch of simple reactions on a large scale.

The issue you present is..if you don't understand it personally, or we don't understand it yet scientifically, you stuff a god in directly controlling it all.

If you didn't understand how erosion happened, would you automatically assumed god came down and dug out a canyon or cliff? chances are, using your logic, yes..you would. You might even decide to prove it by tossing a glass of water on the ground and pointing at it, saying it didn't magically turn into a canyon when you did that due to your desire to simplify complex systems into a single word or act.

aka: stop sticking god in questionmarks..that more than anything slows the pace of understanding.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
I personally believe his understanding of the Law and Gospel far exceeds my own and I would be very hesitant to oppose Paul on any point of Doctrine.

Time to decide then. Is the "religion" that Christ brought a personal religion, or a impersonal organization.
If its a personal connection, then you should oppose any views outside of what connects you personally to the message and life of christ..be it Paul, the pope, or Tom Cruise. Not literally..no need to start punching them, or even debating..its a personal connection.

I have no problems at all with personal connections/spirituality of people. I think its good for people...Paul turned this connection, in my opinion, into a impersonal organization.
Jesus kept trying to tell us that divinity is within us and our faith alone..no need for a brick and morter place, no need for holy men to jump between you and sell you a ticket..he sort of opposed such notions.

So, Paul...jumps in front of christ and says to ignore his message, but instead bow to me and I will bring you to god, through christ, by the doorway of the organization...
its all nonsense, it is completely opposite of what jesus said..it is...well, might as well say it, its anti-christ in regards to message and meaning.
it removes the personal salvation of your spirit and the spirit of god and its direct connection.

thats just my perception based on the overall picture of the religion. Not saying Paul was intentionally doing this mind you. He may have been acting and speaking with the best of intentions and a true belief in his perceptions...the problem is, he tried (successfully) to establish rules, ceremonies, and impersonal perceptions and apply it to everyone whom would hear the words of christ...to hear christ means you must also listen to Paul yammer on about how he see's things..and enforced his perceptions by sword.

reply to post by SaturnFX


I will let you in on a little secret. Promise you won't take it back to communist headquarters.
The first life form in evolution is the father/mother of all life. There was only one. FIRST
That is the beginning of the evolution of life. Without life there is no thought.
Weather wouldn't matter. Like a tree in the woods makes no noise unless someone hears it.
The ONE the FIRST is acknowledged universally and cannot be denied.

reply to post by SaturnFX


." I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son." Jeremiah 31:9

Ephraim was prophecied and blessed to become a "fullness of nations".

Paul preached to the "Gentiles".... which means nations. The "fullness of the 'Gentiles"

13 tribes......13 apostles.....Faith.

All this for a fantasy prophet who hung with a dozen guys and a hooker.
I'd like to see ALL religious fanatics permanently moved to theme parks where they can live their illusion without harming the sane.

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I will let you in on a little secret. Promise you won't take it back to communist headquarters.
The first life form in evolution is the father/mother of all life. There was only one. FIRST
That is the beginning of the evolution of life. Without life there is no thought.
Weather wouldn't matter. Like a tree in the woods makes no noise unless someone hears it.
The ONE the FIRST is acknowledged universally and cannot be denied.

Not following.
The first life form is not understood at the moment. the transition from amino acids and the like to replicating RNA. There are hypothesis's out, and some testing being done to further it along..some insite, but for now, it is a open question.

That is a interesting study though...the evolution from inanimate to animate...fascinating stuff. If its proven to be a simple process, then not only will the study break open the potential for life existing almost anywhere out there simply, but also may leap nanotechnology forward by decades.

and in regards to the rest of the stuff you said..I think you missed the point. I didn't say it mattered, I simply said things we don't understand due to complexity doesn't mean it is defaulted to a deity doing it...just means we currently have no understanding of the process (as the example I just posted about the transition from sand to cell.)

Originally posted by Star128
All this for a fantasy prophet who hung with a dozen guys and a hooker.
I'd like to see ALL religious fanatics permanently moved to theme parks where they can live their illusion without harming the sane.

Not sure how that progresses the discussion, be it this topic, or the atheist v theist discussion.

Why do you dislike religious fanatics?
consider the traits
then ask yourself, in your opposition, are you also demonstrating the same traits?

Keep in mind, the religious fanatic think the non-fanatic is living in a insane delusion.

reply to post by SaturnFX


You completely misunderstand,

I'm saying the More we comprehend... the harder it is to believe that all of the Natural Physical Forces at work just happened along all by themselves. The more I learn about the beautiful Balance that has been achieved holding all the massive forces together.. the more I see the Mark of a Creator.

Science helps us understand how things work. I see the Mark of someone who designed them to work.

Force when not applied intelligently just causes destruction and chaos.

The information contained in a single Human cell is massive. The mechanisms in place in the Human cell are akin to a self replicating Manufacturing planet. INFORMATION is the giant stumbling block for people who deny some form of Intelligent creation. It is illogical to assume that the Information present in creation self originated itself. Many more examples could be cited... but that is unnecessary.

Do you really think Creationists think that the Weather patterns happen devoid of Scientific explanations? Please... Science and God are not at odds with each other. There is no scientific discovery that could possibly Prove that God is not the Origin of all that we can see, feel, touch, or know. Granted, it is impossible to identify God in a laboratory in some Physical Form.... God is Spirit, not Flesh. But he is a Logical, reasonable and Cohesive Explanation for how our existence Came to be.

I've not heard one even vaguely Cohesive explanation from Any Atheist ever as a substitute for where all the information came from.

Soul

reply to post by SaturnFX


Paul himself lamented at the fact that the Early Church right away was so devoid of Unity on thought and Belief.

His letters are largely an attempt at developing some sort of Structure to help maintain unity and instruct new believers on the deeper points of doctrine and theology.

You see most Converts to Christianity in his day only had knowledge of the old adherence to the law as taught by the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin.

This was all new, and even the workings and function of the Holy Spirit from within was an entirely new Concept. The organized Church was a workable institution toward useful instruction in the way of Christ. It was and is certainly not Perfect, yet despite its short comings, Churches with good leaders are still beneficial for the community of Believers.

So yes the Human institution of the Church has always been and will always be Flawed, for it is conceived in the flesh.

The institution of the "invisible" Church is purposed, empowered, and maintained by the Spirit of God and Cannot be subject to human regulation. It can't be destroyed either, it is outside the reach of human hands.

Paul was a FLAWED Christian who was doing his best to allow himself to be Guided by the Holy Spirit in his words and deeds. Any Christian today is nothing more then the same, a human with flaws who is reliant on the Spirit of God for guidance. We as a whole are simple not very good at listening to that guidance and it certainly shows. We are reminded daily of our insufficiency which causes us to look toward Christ for our answers... Not within our own Flesh. And the Spirit is there specifically to point us toward Christ.

Soul

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

You completely misunderstand,

I'm saying the More we comprehend... the harder it is to believe that all of the Natural Physical Forces at work just happened along all by themselves. The more I learn about the beautiful Balance that has been achieved holding all the massive forces together.. the more I see the Mark of a Creator.

Your argument would be more compelling if all planets held idealistic complex environments to support life..but it doesn't.
No venus people, nor are we able to one day take a rocketship and have a picnic on our moon.
In a infinate universe, all things will occur that can occur. you look at earth and think..wow, wild..imagine all the complex interactions that required this to happen..must be proof of god.
Well, look then at mars, mercury, etc...whats the point of those planets? Why not have beautiful rainforests and ripe rich soil everywhere we go to expand out...

oh, because those wonderful complex life supporting interactions didn't happen there.

We are a one in a million (or more) chance to be here...but, one in a million happens often when you have trillions of opportunities..there is no need for a paranormal force to account for this.

We are standing in that one in a million spots...which is fantastic..life...love it..excellent experience, this whole consciousness thing. But, the one in a million spot does not mean its all the time. The lotto winner isn't foolish enough to think that everyone won the lottery because he did..nor -should- a lotto winner think a deity decided he should win (because that means that same deity refused everyone else..even people more needy). Its chance, its possible, and if its possible, given enough chances, it is likely

The rest of your post more or less sits on that premise

I like to think there is a order in the universe...and it would be fantastic to find out there is a sort of benevolent entity directing it all...would be awesome to one day discover actual proper evidence of such a thing..but until that day comes...its just tossing deities into questionmarks verses trying to understand.

reply to post by SoulReaper


You know...I get the feeling there is not a tremendous amount of difference between you and I.
Some differences are that you see Pauls actions as still relevant today. I don't.
I understand the people at that time were a bit savage, and this new dude named christ came along to show a different way...Paul, in his trying to spread the message, had to answer a lot of questions..and instead of simply stating "I don't know"...he best guessed things which became doctrine of the church (flawed).
I just don't think this matters today. Time to wipe away paul's attempts to fill in the gaps for the savage men and let modern man simply interpret christs direct message and life for themselves...its not a bad message.

You also see Christ as a menifestation of god..or something, aka, paranormal.
I don't. But, that doesn't mean I deny his wisdom he imparted..its simplistic and yet very complex
love thy neighbor is a hell of a tall order when you ponder it...love myself...another huge order..those two rules right there are enough to keep a person busy trying to understand both for a lifetime..but it also allows for being true to yourself...to love yourself means to understand yourself..to love your neighbor means to understand them also, which in turn makes them part of you.

I think the message speaks for itself...regardless of christ was god, or a angel, alien, just some carpenter, ghost, etc...it doesn't matter, I don't see the need to accept jesus as the son of god and is god and etc etc etc...why not just accept his message, believer or not, and help improve the world.

too many rules creates lawyers...the more simple it is for us, the more difficult it is for us to get around...following the "spirit" of the message is far more encompassing than following the technicals.

But, we both clearly don't just mindlessly drone on without thinking things through...just arrive at different conclusions seeing the same thing it appears.
and diverse opinions makes experiencing others far more interesting..else we might as well just be listening to ourselves.

reply to post by SaturnFX


your entire argument is based on a lame concept.

The universe doesn't exist the way it would if you were God... therefore no God could possibly exist?

There is no point here. its completely moot.

And you have no answer for the source of the Massive Amounts of Information in just one Human Cell. Your 1 million to 1 odds become infinity to 1 that this sort of information would self originate out of a mass of gas's swirling around in a universe that apparently also Self originated.

Soul

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

your entire argument is based on a lame concept.

The universe doesn't exist the way it would if you were God... therefore no God could possibly exist?

There is no point here. its completely moot.

And you have no answer for the source of the Massive Amounts of Information in just one Human Cell. Your 1 million to 1 odds become infinity to 1 that this sort of information would self originate out of a mass of gas's swirling around in a universe that apparently also Self originated.

Soul

massive amounts is subjective.
much of that is redundancy.
what is the proper amount for things to be completely mundane and natural anyhow?

Give me 2 billion years to slowly work on tech by process of adding and removing naturally occuring elements and no doubt I will be able to do all sorts of crazy things. 2 billion years is a very, very long time, and all it has to do is happen once..

Notice also I said naturally occuring. If I am using tech and such, then that implies a creator..

Also, I say 2 billion years because (offhand) for the first 2b years, the earth was just a floating rock according to pop theory...not much going on...amino acids, electricity, meteors, aliens (of course), wind, radiation, etc etc etc...lots of stuff being moved around, eventually something is going to pop up and form..some sort of hybrid..from that, complexity starts forming.

This is not my strong suit though, I am in way over my head and wouldn't do the subject justice. I read enough to become convinced that it was a stable hypothesis...if your interested, you might also check it out..but I won't do the disservice of giving a super retarded narration based on my slight recollection. Instead, I will say I personally don't know how it happened..but it clearly did....
Science says: lets figure out how it happened

reply to post by SoulReaper


To the atheist it is much easier just to relegate all the complexity to happenstance and accident rather than admit the omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence of an Intelligent Being with Consciousness which can encompass all that IS.

reply to post by SaturnFX


You must remember that Paul was a disciple. That means that he walked with Jesus, and talked with Jesus and listened to his teachings. He got the inside scoop, so to speak. It is likely he was well trained. He endeavored to carry on the work of Jesus after the resurrection and ascension. Why you must rip him apart so? Is it because you don't like his message about homosexuality?

Gays take the easy rout. No kids. No Real responsibility or contribution to the evolution society to include their genes.

Athiests have no need to waste time thinking past a third grade science book.
Spend all week focused on themselves. Plenty of time to go round picking on people of faith.

They are truly the self centered of societies. Bi sexual is even lazier.

"Bisexuality immediately doubles your chances for a date on
Saturday night." -- Rodney Dangerfield

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

You must remember that Paul was a disciple. That means that he walked with Jesus, and talked with Jesus and listened to his teachings. He got the inside scoop, so to speak. It is likely he was well trained. He endeavored to carry on the work of Jesus after the resurrection and ascension. Why you must rip him apart so? Is it because you don't like his message about homosexuality?

Oh, well, lets then put diciples views as something better than our common view.

So lets then learn of what the disciple, Judas taught us...lets see...overruled for some silver.
gotcha.

Disciples were little more than scribes..people whom kept following him around, and often getting barked at by jesus for being a bunch of idiots (in a way).

Paul is outspoken. I don't like his views on human interaction in general.

Paul also proves in romans that he doesn't even see the wisdom in the laws..he acknowledges these rules (from leviticus) are arbitrary and not trying to stop some greater estoric happening...just a "ok, everyone has to rub their bellys, else your sinning..and go" type rule

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

aka, its bull..even he knew it, but he didn't question it (or rather, he may have been teaching not to question rules no matter how confusing and obscure it is...if the church says it, you do it without question, else you have sinned.)

I don't understand Paul. He is a confusing figure. He claims to be a follower of christ, yet the moment he died, paul turned his ole buddy from just that...whom offered to be a brother, into something that is out of reach and we must pray and worship him (christ) verses envoke christ to worship god (as jesus said..else the our father would be quite different).
Paul is arguably quite confused, or personally trying to start a rulebook based on his personal random views that altered over time from message direct to best guess based on ???

And ya, his views on homosexuality. Overall, I don't care much about the subject outside of how it shows his flawed thinking. Pauls words has allowed all the crimes christianity has spread throughout the world to happen..when people went on crusades, burned witches, went gay bashing, etc etc etc..it was not speaking the words of christ..it was following the concepts of paul.

Again, Christ's views were simple here..love self, love neighbor, love god. it encompasses all, and can be extremely complex to a thinking man.
Paul allowed lawyers with the complex weave he created. should to go to heaven, bring an attorney..because there are loopholes and all sorts that can get you off.