Oetzi the Iceman, Ötzi the Iceman: Latest News

reply to post by longjohnbritches


Hi folks,
Seems like this guy is from out of town according to the consensus so far.
Could he be from a place not as far as Asia?
Do you know anything about the Tattoos Dan remarked about.
There must have been some influence in the Balkans from the East at that date??
Your info on metal work is fascinating Hans.
Early art in what ever medium is awesome including the utility items and weapons.
the best ljb
PS see my avatar

reply to post by iforget

Hi ifo,
For some reason I lost my theory in the mix.
I was wondering if it would match up with the info you posted earlier. I was thinking Icy slipped wounded himself hunting and went back to the camp to bleed and freeze to death.
Now the blood analyses seems to implicate OTHERS to skirmish proportions. (Blood of others on his knife)
Was the ax not available to him at the time? I would take it over a crude knife as a hand to hand weapon
His extended body is a big clue. His gear says he came back to camp.
I think yes and alone. Perhaps his comrades met their fate elsewhere?
the best ljb

This report makes him a local

Origin of Oetzi

The full report is unfortunately behind a pay wall

The abstact says

The Alpine Iceman provides a unique window into the Neolithic-Copper Age of Europe. We compared the radiogenic (strontium and lead) and stable (oxygen and carbon) isotope composition of the Iceman's teeth and bones, as well as 40Ar/39Ar mica ages from his intestine, to local geology and hydrology, and we inferred his habitat and range from childhood to adult life. The Iceman's origin can be restricted to a few valleys within ∼60 kilometers south(east) of the discovery site. His migration during adulthood is indicated by contrasting isotopic compositions of enamel, bones, and intestinal content. This demonstrates that the Alpine valleys of central Europe were permanently inhabited during the terminal Neolithic.

Originally posted by Hanslune
This report makes him a local

Origin of Oetzi

The full report is unfortunately behind a pay wall

The abstact says

The Alpine Iceman provides a unique window into the Neolithic-Copper Age of Europe. We compared the radiogenic (strontium and lead) and stable (oxygen and carbon) isotope composition of the Iceman's teeth and bones, as well as 40Ar/39Ar mica ages from his intestine, to local geology and hydrology, and we inferred his habitat and range from childhood to adult life. The Iceman's origin can be restricted to a few valleys within ∼60 kilometers south(east) of the discovery site. His migration during adulthood is indicated by contrasting isotopic compositions of enamel, bones, and intestinal content. This demonstrates that the Alpine valleys of central Europe were permanently inhabited during the terminal Neolithic.

I would have to educate myself about this means of body and eco connections.
Can't argue with science but at this point I wouldn't mind pointing out that if this individual was originally from an eco zone that was similar or identical to the location he was found in-- His make up might be the same.
Northern India for example, Here is another place I like the first one way better lol--

Western Alps Snow Conditions & Weather Map
www.snow-forecast.com/maps/dynamic/west-alps



- Similarto Western Alps Snow Conditions & Weather Map

Animated Western Alps mountain weather map for snowfall, snow conditions map, snow depth map, current wind map, temperature map, freezing level and live ...

Can we not trust the DNA??

The best ljb

Without a doubt otzi was being chased, in one of the links posted in this thread , researchers have identified two wounds on his hands qnd chest.
From wiki's otzi article.

" Further research found that the arrow's shaft had been removed before death, and close examination of the body found bruises and cuts to the hands, wrists and chest and cerebral trauma indicative of a blow to the head. One of the cuts was to the base of his thumb that reached down to the bone but had no time to heal before his death. Currently it is believed that death was caused by a blow to the head, though researchers are unsure if this was due to a fall, or from being struck with a rock by another person. [43] Unpublished and thus unconfirmed DNA analyses claim they revealed traces of blood from four other people on his gear: one from his knife, two from the same arrowhead, and a fourth from his coat. [44] Interpretations of these findings were that Ötzi killed two people with the same arrow, and was able to retrieve it on both occasions, and the blood on his coat was from a wounded comrade he may have carried over his back. [41] Ötzi's unnatural posture in death (frozen body, face down, left arm bent across the chest) suggests that the theory of a solitary death from blood loss, hunger, cold and weakness is untenable. Rather, before death occurred and rigor mortis set in, the Iceman was turned on to his stomach in the effort to remove the arrow shaft. [45]"
The source

en.m.wikipedia.org...
It has been a while since I delved nto otzi's past and new things have come to light, like his DNA analysis, which shows that he was a southern European, his general DNA type is only found in corsica.

reply to post by punkinworks10


handmade arrows were like signatures, they would identify who made the arrow. They are also hard to make so why waste one?

reply to post by punkinworks10


Hi punkin,
Again, another very vivid post. The possibilities here are quite broad.
Nevertheless the wonderment of these visuals to me is worth all the time and work. Optimistically the blended views of the participating members come to fruition with a much better understanding of the past.
There is no science to be letf out here.
That is how you and the other are helping us learn.
the best ljb

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by punkinworks10

 

handmade arrows were like signatures, they would identify who made the arrow. They are also hard to make so why waste one?

edit on 2/5/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

I can't argue here. Personal experience. When I was a teenage killer.
Well, it was just a goose. Long story short the law traced the fletching on the arrow that passed through the squacking goose to the local fellow I bought it from. I learned my first lesson in law.
He wanted to sell me more arrows so he didn't snitch. Sooo ljb

Originally posted by longjohnbritches

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by punkinworks10

 

handmade arrows were like signatures, they would identify who made the arrow. They are also hard to make so why waste one?

edit on 2/5/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

I can't argue here. Personal experience. When I was a teenage killer.
Well, it was just a goose. Long story short the law traced the fletching on the arrow that passed through the squacking goose to the local fellow I bought it from. I learned my first lesson in law.
He wanted to sell me more arrows so he didn't snitch. Sooo ljb

Probably the same reason the axe wasn't taken, it would be a piece identified with the victim. One would need a Sherlock Holmes and Watson to figure out this mystery

reply to post by longjohnbritches


As far as it goes the article I posted only stated that he most probably died shortly after being wounded in the shoulder and hand. So yes I suppose your thoughts would fit with that.

Has anyone considered that Icy's camp could have been an igloo type camp.
The campsite was in a depression and protected from the river of ice that passed over top of him.
Any evidence that was not in this small area has been ground to powder and may never be found.
From my perspective-- The arrow point and the direction of entry could have happened when he slipped prone during pursuit. Giving his assailant a momentary still shot. Making the insertion look like it came from below.
Igloo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igloo - Similarto Igloo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are three traditional types of igloos, all of different sizes and all used for different purposes. The smallest was constructed as a temporary shelter, usually ...

Nomenclature - Types - Construction - Nanook of the North

cheers ljb

Originally posted by iforget
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

As far as it goes the article I posted only stated that he most probably died shortly after being wounded in the shoulder and hand. So yes I suppose your thoughts would fit with that.

Hi ifo,
I showed a spear point I found years ago to a friend, This was before blood residue technology. (DNA)
He took the point off the bar and licked it. He held it to his brow like Johnny Carson (Carnac)
He said, " doe, 1326 ad, late fall". The point was way older for sure but the wit and stupidity are both indelibly cashed in my noggin. I found that point right in a cow pen full of paddies and yellow liquid.
yuuccck ljb


Blood residue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_residue - Similarto Blood residue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In forensic science, blood residue – wet and dry remnants of blood, as well the ... the crime. Blood residue analysis is also an important technique in archeology.

reply to post by Hanslune

Well I think this dynamic douo is up for the job LOL

Watson and Crick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_and_Crick- Similarto Watson and Crick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

James D. Watson and Francis Crick were the two co-discoverers of the structure of DNA in 1953. They used x-ray diffraction data collected by Rosalind Franklin ...

James D. Watson - Rosalind Franklin - Molecular Structure of Nucleic ...
cheers ljb

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by punkinworks10

 

handmade arrows were like signatures, they would identify who made the arrow. They are also hard to make so why waste one?

edit on 2/5/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

Yes arrows are reasonably hard to make unless that's what you do. I once watched a man make a couple dozen arrows in a couple hrs, but that is beside the point.
My reasoning for the arrows and bow being left behind, is that the unfinished and broken arrows and unfinished bow were useless to his companions, in the " right here right now" circumstances of thier situation.
So they took his good arrows and his bow , but they left him with what he needed for the after life, after all there is plenty of time to make new arrows and a bow.
The fact that he had such high levels of copper in his hair is indicative of his being involved in the copper making process, also his black lung was likely caused by the same smelting process, as it takes tremendous amounts of.wood of charcoal to make copper.

reply to post by punkinworks10


Good points but I would add that they may have gotten the arrow but left the other stuff because the death occurred in a larger melee, they were in danger from Oetzi associates. Somehow Oetzi body wasn't found

Just speculation of course

reply to post by longjohnbritches


My dad was the kind of lucky sob that could always find a four leaf clover in 5 minutes if he was looking. I never have found one myself. He had quite a collection of arrowheads and the like. Once he found a football sized meteorite that he donated to the University of Michigan.

I have one piece here that is a stone tool. I guess it is most like a pestle or grinding stone. It is counter balanced by this long smooth rounded spade like portion that runs back through your hand from the grip .I've never seen anything like it before I should get a picture of it up. My kids kind of painted it though

Otzi's tools, clothing and tattoos fascinate me more than any guess's about the why's and hows of his story.

Originally posted by iforget
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

My dad was the kind of lucky sob that could always find a four leaf clover in 5 minutes if he was looking. I never have found one myself. He had quite a collection of arrowheads and the like. Once he found a football sized meteorite that he donated to the University of Michigan.

I have one piece here that is a stone tool. I guess it is most like a pestle or grinding stone. It is counter balanced by this long smooth rounded spade like portion that runs back through your hand from the grip .I've never seen anything like it before I should get a picture of it up. My kids kind of painted it though

Otzi's tools, clothing and tattoos fascinate me more than any guess's about the why's and hows of his story.

edit on 5/3/2012 by iforget because: (no reason given)

Hi Ifo,Right on.
I hope your dad is still with us. He sounds like my kinda guy.

I don't think Icy was out there in that harsh area unprepared.
He had most every thing a guy of his day could have had IMO.
Insulated shoes boots His ax must have been the 5500 year old equivalent to a Howitzer today.
I think he had a forward observers camp. Maybe camoed in the snow and ice.
He went out on a recon or hunt. He was ambushed but toughed it out. Possibly injuring or killing others.
Well, he was victorious and able to get back to camp and bleed to death.
His home town may or may not be discovered. As members have pointed out the clues are many and seem to keep on coming. I favor the tattoos for the layman and DNA for the professionals to make the find of his origin.
Here is the tool kit of a camper not a wanderer. The author speculates about no shelter?
My answer in the, igloo sense, is that his house melted. His DNA to date says only that the pros think he has no local descendants. Makes sense to me.

Here is a real good look at his gear.


Wood Trekker: Tool Kit of Otzi the Iceman
woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2010/10/tool-kit-of-otzi-iceman.html

Oct 29, 2010 ... Tool Kit of Otzi the Iceman. In 1991 two tourists in the Italian Alps discovered a mummified body. After an investigation, it was revealed that the ...

Where are the tattoo experts ??

lol ljb

reply to post by Hanslune


Yep its all just speculation,
But that's all you can do in such a situation, you have to take the hard facts and fill in the blanks with what we know about people and how they react and respond to certain conditions.
I will lay out how I came to my speculations,

1st)
The time of year and the terrain.
Otzi died in late spring and was found at a elevation of over 10k feet
I live at the base of the sierra Nevada mountains, they are analogous to the alps in terms of climate and terrain.
And I have hunted fished, hiked, skied and snowshoed these mountains all of my life, and the fact that Otzi tried to cross the mountains at this time of year show that he REALLY REALLY wanted to cross. At this time of year there is at leas15 feet of snow in the high passes. I would suspect that the snow pack was much greater in the region of the alps where he as found, because his body was covered with snow and remained so for 5 k years shows that the snows never melted off during the summer months.
With modern equipment a trek across the mountains would be quite arduous, and with Otzis level of tech crossing this time of year would be almost inconceivable., not impossible, but so difficult that even attempting it means that there were extenuating circumstances forcing the trek.
2) Otzi was certainly involved in the production of copper, this alone shows that he was part of a complex sizable community. Mining, refining and producing copper items requires a great number of people across a broad spectrum of skills. This means he wasnt a lone wandering oucast, as has been postulated by some .

reply to post by punkinworks10


Hi punkin,
Are you sure there is no way to convince you that perhaps he was encamped there in an igloo type shelter?
And he made scheduled sorties for staples and recourses?
His un molested gear and there close circular location seems to indicate a open or covered campsite.Well to me at least. What if he was foreign to the area and got caught trying to steel a chicken from the lower village. There was a skirmish and he took a shaft but managed to get back to camp to die.
I see no indication that anybody had to of ever been at the place the body of Icy was found.
I find you well versed in understanding Ostzi and respect your thinking
cheers ljb