I have an insulting question to ask Christians...

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by Grumble

 

American Christians often forget the "Sell all your riches, give it to the poor, and follow me" part, Jesus was a Communist Hippie.

Sell something and give it away to the poor sounds like capitalism as much as communism.

Why was this moved to Religion in Off Topic? This is a question about political beliefs and is relevant to current events.

You have to understand that TPTB like to divide everyone into red/blue, black/white, religious/atheist, etc. As such, people are pigeonholed according to this belief, that belief, and the media propagates those stereotypes to keep us divided. It is sad to see so many ATSers fall in line with the program, too.

It has nothing to do with how individuals feel about anything. It is all propaganda, and each "side" has its propagandists.

Originally posted by Grumble
So here is my question: how can you sit through bible class/Sunday school and the sermons of a man or woman of God and still agree with the Republicans on most issues? By most issues, I mean most of the following: pro-war, pro-accumulation of wealth, anti-social programs, anti-education, etc.

Yes, your question is loaded because it is full of assumption. Republicans are

1. "Pro-war" Really? Let;s see WW II started under a Democratic President, just as an example. Many many democrats have voted :"pro war" over the years. Just look at tghe record. To lay "war" at the foot of Republicans is absurd. Plus, consider; Who wanted to keep slavery? Democrats. Who was anti civil-rights? Democrats. Who founded and participated in the Ku Klux Klan? Democrats. Who wanted to end slavery: Republicans.

2. "Pro accumulation of wealth" That's right. Incentive creates prosperity. Disincentive creates slavery. In the Soviet Union an popular phrase was, "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us." If you don't have incentive, you lose. Wealth creates jobs. It is either sopent or invested. Both create jobs. If you have incentive to do better for yourself, you'll work harder. There's nothing preventing you from doing it, but lots of people just want to be taken care of cradle to grave. It's not a matter of accumulatuing wealth; it's a matter of creating it. How many millionaires has Microsoft created? Thousands. They didn't "take" any money, they created a new product that had not been there before. Yeah yeah I know, M$ is abig evil corporation. Schmucks.

3. "anti social programs" Not entirely, but okay. Why? Because generally they don't work. How many trillions of dollars have been spent on the "anti-poverty program:? Do you see any progress? Neither do I. Why? Because giving away money doesn't help people out of poverty; it entrenches them into it. It's all about entitlement. People quickly figure out the more babies you have, the more money you can get free from the government.

4. "Anti-education" Where in heavens name do you get that republicans are anti-education. Anti DEPARTMENT of Education, sure. They are a useless agency that wants governmental control over all schools. They basically force all school districts to do things their way or they cut off funding. Of course, it is us who give them funding in the first place. Why not keep it local? The Dept of Education does not hekp education; it hurts it. Just like the Department of Energy has done absolutely nothing in the last 30-odd years to make us energy independent. It has done the exact opposite.

Now, just where in the Bible does Jesus suggest that the answer to human suffering is to let the government take over everything? Isn't the overall theme in Jesus' ministry anti-government? Doesn't he have a lot negative to say about tax collectors? Doesn't Jesus suggest that self-reliance is better than having the government take over your life? Doesn't he suggest that charity (social programs) should start at the home and come from the heart? Didn't Jesus suggests (as did the Republicans) that people ough to be free and not owned? What do you think Jesus would say about abortion? Would he take the Republican position or the Democrat position?

I would suggest to you that based on the phrasing of your "insulting" question to Christians that you have a very naive view on what Republicans stand for, and what Jesus meant by his teachings. I think you need to study the issue a little more in-depth. You go study the specifics and cite your choices,and then come back here and see if your position is the same. I doubt it can be.

We all have different religious beliefs and political beliefs and the freedom of choice.
Your question implys there is only one choice that is right, yet none of us knows for a fact what that is, when in fact
all we can do is choose what to believe and hope for the best.
If you seek guidence look into yourself or consult the bible.
Matthew: 22:21
"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"

It's not about party affiliation, but how you treat others.
Make your own choice.It is your God given right.
If you believe in God, you will answer to God if your choice is wrong in his eyes.

reply to post by Grumble


Yea, this is typical. You're making your view of their policies THEIR view of their policies. This is where liberals go off the logic tracks every time.

The whole idea of tax and entitlement reform, for conservatives, is that limiting intrusion by the government into the market will make a more robust economy overall. You know exactly what I'm talking about, and you can disagree with it all you want. But that's what they believe.

So don't act like just because you 'know what the real effect of those policies will be' - that the people proposing them are actually sitting around scheming to reach that result and are anything worse than misguided, bad economists.

So, ditch this 'mistake' (its not a mistake its willful ignorance at best). Further, yes republicans actually are forced to stand in front of cameras and say that they don't want to eliminate entitlements. They do it all the time. In fact, every time in my lifetime there has been an attempt by the right to reform entitlements (welfare reform, bush's ss push, ryan budget, drug testing) republicans have been forced at some point to express their lack of desire to actually dismantle the entire system).

To bring it back to Jesus. There's no way around this. Jesus lived 2000 years ago and only breached the subject of politics when asked about the current system he was living in. If you want to make some more gigantic logical leaps, you can take 'give unto casesar' as an endorsement of taxes, and then an endorsement of entitlement programs. Or hey, I can take his endorsement of taxes as an endorsement of foreign wars and occupation, since, hey, that's what caesar was doing.

I think its safe to say Jesus was a-political. Not a-moral of course, just a-political.

Originally posted by snusfanatic

Originally posted by Grumble
By most issues, I mean most of the following: pro-war, pro-accumulation of wealth, anti-social programs, anti-education, etc.

lol what?

Its 'give unto caesar' not 'give unto caesar so that he may fund alternative sources of wind energy and fight back welfare reform.'

Then is it "give unto ceasar" so he may wage war, promote rebellion in other countries and leave this country broken morally and finacially?

reply to post by grubblesnert


No, its an a-political statement. That's my point. Reading it as an affirmative endorsement of anything is ridiculous. In fact, you just greatly helped my argument. Look at what you wrote about wars and occupation: What exactly was Caesar doing in the mid-east again? Hmmm.....

I'd argue you've made a great addition to my post. If you're going to take 'give unto caesar' as an affirmative endorsement of any policies. It has to be the policies of oppression and occupation that were being carried out in that place at that period.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
You have to understand that TPTB like to divide everyone into red/blue, black/white, religious/atheist, etc. As such, people are pigeonholed according to this belief, that belief, and the media propagates those stereotypes to keep us divided. It is sad to see so many ATSers fall in line with the program, too.

It has nothing to do with how individuals feel about anything. It is all propaganda, and each "side" has its propagandists.

I could not agree MORE! You can see it happening on this thread already. Even my last response could be interpreted as supporting on party/president over the other.
My true take is like yours. Or as I've heard descriped before. "Reds & Blues" are just different wings of the same bird.

reply to post by grubblesnert


I might as well just state at this point that while I'll be voting republican in 2012. My ultimate fantasy is an abolition of political parties.

Originally posted by schuyler
[Yes, your question is loaded because it is full of assumption. Republicans are

1. "Pro-war" Really? Let;s see WW II started under a Democratic President, just as an example. Many many democrats have voted :"pro war" over the years. Just look at tghe record. To lay "war" at the foot of Republicans is absurd. Plus, consider; Who wanted to keep slavery? Democrats. Who was anti civil-rights? Democrats. Who founded and participated in the Ku Klux Klan? Democrats. Who wanted to end slavery: Republicans.

In WWII we were attacked. FDR had little choice but to go to war against the growing evil in the world. All of your other examples come from time when Democrats were the Conservatives and Republicans were the Progressives.

Originally posted by schuyler
[2. "Pro accumulation of wealth" That's right. Incentive creates prosperity. Disincentive creates slavery. In the Soviet Union an popular phrase was, "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us." If you don't have incentive, you lose. Wealth creates jobs. It is either sopent or invested. Both create jobs. If you have incentive to do better for yourself, you'll work harder. There's nothing preventing you from doing it, but lots of people just want to be taken care of cradle to grave. It's not a matter of accumulatuing wealth; it's a matter of creating it. How many millionaires has Microsoft created? Thousands. They didn't "take" any money, they created a new product that had not been there before. Yeah yeah I know, M$ is abig evil corporation. Schmucks.

[3. "anti social programs" Not entirely, but okay. Why? Because generally they don't work. How many trillions of dollars have been spent on the "anti-poverty program:? Do you see any progress? Neither do I. Why? Because giving away money doesn't help people out of poverty; it entrenches them into it. It's all about entitlement. People quickly figure out the more babies you have, the more money you can get free from the government.

I am pro-growth, schooled in Economics. Your fallacy here is in thinking this issue is all-or-nothing. Pure capitalism would be hell, as would pure socialism be. There is no reason we cannot have the best of both. But letting all of those who cannot produce for themselve starve to prevent a few freeloaders from getting away with something is NOT consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by schuyler
[4. "Anti-education" Where in heavens name do you get that republicans are anti-education. Anti DEPARTMENT of Education, sure. They are a useless agency that wants governmental control over all schools. They basically force all school districts to do things their way or they cut off funding. Of course, it is us who give them funding in the first place. Why not keep it local? The Dept of Education does not hekp education; it hurts it. Just like the Department of Energy has done absolutely nothing in the last 30-odd years to make us energy independent. It has done the exact opposite.

Perhaps I should have said anti-public education. You poor kids go dig some ditches or something.

Originally posted by schuyler
[Now, just where in the Bible does Jesus suggest that the answer to human suffering is to let the government take over everything? Isn't the overall theme in Jesus' ministry anti-government? Doesn't he have a lot negative to say about tax collectors? Doesn't Jesus suggest that self-reliance is better than having the government take over your life? Doesn't he suggest that charity (social programs) should start at the home and come from the heart? Didn't Jesus suggests (as did the Republicans) that people ough to be free and not owned? What do you think Jesus would say about abortion? Would he take the Republican position or the Democrat position?

Again, I am interested in the higher principles. Peace. Charity. Tolerance. Kindness. Draw your own conclusions.

Originally posted by schuyler
[I would suggest to you that based on the phrasing of your "insulting" question to Christians that you have a very naive view on what Republicans stand for, and what Jesus meant by his teachings. I think you need to study the issue a little more in-depth. You go study the specifics and cite your choices,and then come back here and

I spent many years as a Republican, including working in the local party. I know what I am talking about.

Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by grubblesnert

 

No, its an a-political statement. That's my point. Reading it as an affirmative endorsement of anything is ridiculous. In fact, you just greatly helped my argument. Look at what you wrote about wars and occupation: What exactly was Caesar doing in the mid-east again? Hmmm.....

I'd argue you've made a great addition to my post. If you're going to take 'give unto caesar' as an affirmative endorsement of any policies. It has to be the policies of oppression and occupation that were being carried out in that place at that period.

snusfanatic, I obviously mis-interpreted your comment
I agree 100% my friend!
I often reference the Roman Empire when talk "politics" (or more precisely the present course our goverment is on) with those who are'nt smart enough or forunate enough to flee from the sound of my "conspiracy/radical talk

PS stick around I think this tread will only get more entertaining.

Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by grubblesnert

 

I might as well just state at this point that while I'll be voting republican in 2012. My ultimate fantasy is an abolition of political parties.

scroll up a couple of posts you'll see an apology for mis-interpreting your original response to the OP.
When I responded it was posted as a response back to my self (I wanted to include your post as a quote)

Originally posted by Grumble
So I am Christian myself though I have rejected organized religion, and I am generally politically liberal because of it. It seems rather impossible to me that one can study the teachings of Jesus, actually believe in them, and then be a right-winger.

So here is my question: how can you sit through bible class/Sunday school and the sermons of a man or woman of God and still agree with the Republicans on most issues? By most issues, I mean most of the following: pro-war, pro-accumulation of wealth, anti-social programs, anti-education, etc.

Your question isn't insulting, the story about the Herodians and Pharisees and the poll tax comes to mind.

None of those things are against the Bible. There is a time for peace and a time for war, God wants peace, but there is a time where evil prevails if good men do nothing, God isn't against wealth, He is against a greedy wealthy person, God isn't against social programs, He's against social programs that enslave people rather than free them. And He's certainly not against education, He is however against indoctrination.

Both parties have ISSUES. So you have to look at things with His eyes, what's the agenda with certain politicians? Look at His teachings and vote accordingly. Seek His face in prayer and ask Him.

Originally posted by Grumble
So I am Christian myself though I have rejected organized religion, and I am generally politically liberal because of it. It seems rather impossible to me that one can study the teachings of Jesus, actually believe in them, and then be a right-winger.

So here is my question: how can you sit through bible class/Sunday school and the sermons of a man or woman of God and still agree with the Republicans on most issues? By most issues, I mean most of the following: pro-war, pro-accumulation of wealth, anti-social programs, anti-education, etc.

I do not agree with any politician republican or otherwise. In fact i do not even vote because i do not agree with any of them. Yeshua never gave us permission to gain worldly power or worldly wealth, nor did he command us to join a hierarchy and any republican that is onboard with having anything to do with murdering people is not one of us.

So because one willing pays their taxes that means they fully agree with all policys ?
We all have a soul and that is our moral compass and what guides that compass is what we believe and what
motivates our choices.

"Grandfather Tells" which is also known as "The Wolves Within"
An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an injustice, "Let me tell you a story.

I too, at times, have felt a great hate for those that have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do.

But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It is like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times." He continued, "It is as if there are two wolves inside me. One is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him, and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way.

But the other wolf, ah! He is full of anger. The littlest thing will set him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all the time, for no reason. He cannot think because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger,for his anger will change nothing.

Sometimes, it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit."

The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather?"

The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed."

You can't fully follow the teachings of Christ if you define limit yourself to political titles. Christians shouldn't describe themselves as liberals OR conservatives, because at the end of the day society defines both definitions. That leads to Christians picking and choosing which words of Christ to follow.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by Grumble
So I am Christian myself though I have rejected organized religion, and I am generally politically liberal because of it. It seems rather impossible to me that one can study the teachings of Jesus, actually believe in them, and then be a right-winger.

So here is my question: how can you sit through bible class/Sunday school and the sermons of a man or woman of God and still agree with the Republicans on most issues? By most issues, I mean most of the following: pro-war, pro-accumulation of wealth, anti-social programs, anti-education, etc.

I do not agree with any politician republican or otherwise. In fact i do not even vote because i do not agree with any of them. Yeshua never gave us permission to gain worldly power or worldly wealth, nor did he command us to join a hierarchy and any republican that is onboard with having anything to do with murdering people is not one of us.

Soldiers serving the President as their job isn't "murder", murder is taking the innocent life of someone. If God sends a nation to war it's His judgment against another nation. NOTHING happens on this Earth that isn't Father filtered. That includes war. Israel was conquered by her enemies, and it was God's judgment against them for turning from His ways.

If soldiers are Christians they pray for peace, but if their "king" sends them into battle, they serve the "king" and this is glory to the Lord. If God has a servant in an Army and is using that Army to judge another nation or "king", refusing to serve in the place one is called to service is dishonor to that person, to their king, and going against the will of the Lord for that place and time.

Originally posted by CaptainNemo
You can't fully follow the teachings of Christ if you define limit yourself to political titles. Christians shouldn't describe themselves as liberals OR conservatives, because at the end of the day society defines both definitions. That leads to Christians picking and choosing which words of Christ to follow.

Amen, like in my example of the Herodians and the Pharisees Jesus was on neither side. The Herodians didn't like Jesus because he was to religious for them, the Pharisees didn't like Him because He didn't follow all their rules and have day-long Bible studies and sing all the "right" Psalms and Hymns.

Jesus was too busy for both of them out doing the work of the Kingdom. The story is a picture of the secular world and the Religious Legalists coming together against a common enemy, the Son of God doing the work of God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Love your enemies as you love your neighbors. I doubt that encompasses filling them full of lead. He doesn't need us to fulfill his judgement, he punished Sodom and Gomorah and a few other cities all on his own without the need for any man to lift a finger for him.