How fast can you wire a building to blow up?

reply to post by maxella1

It cracks me up how they insist that the 19 hijackers were able to pull it off because of government incompetence....

Well, not just, or even primarily because of incompetence, mainly because the hijackers were able to exploit some well known weaknesses in the system, like that boxcutters were not considered weapons and that most people would cooperate with hijackers pre-9/11.

....but they expect regular office workers to keep an eye on every construction worker in 110 stories building.

No, but the "construction worker" can't depend on nobody, including the office workers, to never ask questions. What about all the maintenance workers? Inspectors? Remember, the buildings were owned by the Port Authority and their headquarters was in the World Trade Center which included their engineering and inspection staffs.

You people are hilarious!

Hey, its just the material I have to work with.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by maxella1

 

It cracks me up how they insist that the 19 hijackers were able to pull it off because of government incompetence....

Well, not just, or even primarily because of incompetence, mainly because the hijackers were able to exploit some well known weaknesses in the system, like that boxcutters were not considered weapons and that most people would cooperate with hijackers pre-9/11.

....but they expect regular office workers to keep an eye on every construction worker in 110 stories building.

No, but the "construction worker" can't depend on nobody, including the office workers, to never ask questions. What about all the maintenance workers? Inspectors? Remember, the buildings were owned by the Port Authority and their headquarters was in the World Trade Center which included their engineering and inspection staffs.

You people are hilarious!

Hey, its just the material I have to work with.

You forgot another known weakness they were able to exploit.

Like this one:

Hazmi and Mihdhar had lived in the home of an FBI informant in San Diego.

LOL

reply to post by hooper

No, but the "construction worker" can't depend on nobody, including the office workers, to never ask questions. What about all the maintenance workers? Inspectors? Remember, the buildings were owned by the Port Authority and their headquarters was in the World Trade Center which included their engineering and inspection staffs.

What's your point? LOL

reply to post by SimontheMagus

Loizeaux is talking about how no evidence for explosives was found in the rubble but fails to mention that it was hauled away and broom swept before anybody could investigate it.

The bomb squad from the local sheriff department (Passaic County NJ) spent 3 weeks at WTC doing recovery


In addition had people from NYPD bomb squads, ATF, FDNY arson investigators crawling over the debris
for months . Also demolition contractors and iron workers, who put erected the WTC complex were there

Noboby saw anything suspect......

reply to post by maxella1

Hazmi and Mihdhar had lived in the home of an FBI informant in San Diego.

Actually, I don't know that they lived in the home but, yes, there was a weakness in that the US separated our domestic law enforcement and international intelligence missions. I also don't know that the terrorist knew that so that may not be a weakness that the terrorist would have exploited.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by maxella1

 

Hazmi and Mihdhar had lived in the home of an FBI informant in San Diego.

Actually, I don't know that they lived in the home but, yes, there was a weakness in that the US separated our domestic law enforcement and international intelligence missions. I also don't know that the terrorist knew that so that may not be a weakness that the terrorist would have exploited.

that most people would cooperate with hijackers pre-9/11.

But they were confident that passengers wouldn’t try to resist?
What if other passengers had bigger box cutters?

reply to post by maxella1


OK - will take you on tour of all the terrorists hot spots here in NJ

Most are ony 2-3 miles from where I live

Clues in Paterson, N.J.

Meanwhile, investigators believe the New Jersey city of Paterson, just 25 miles from the twin towers, may have been the base for a major terrorist cell. ABCNEWS has learned that during the three months prior to the attack, 11 of the 19 suspected hijackers lived in or near Paterson.

A building at 486 Union Ave. was home to six of the terrorists until just days before the attacks. According to the FBI, the third floor apartment was rented for the last six months by Nawak Al-Hamzi and Hani Hanjour, two of the hijackers of Flight 77 that slammed into the Pentagon.

House on Union Ave was raided just after 9/11, one of my friends (no retired) was K9 handler for local sheriff
department - was (with his dog) first one through the door

At least two of the hijackers stayed at a motel in Wayne, N.J., and others rented small planes at nearby airports for flight practice. Others used phony names and addresses to rent cars for long road trips.

Airport is Essex County airport in Caldwell, used to work at building across the street

"Investigators tracing the activities of the hijackers determined that, on four occasions in August of 2001, individuals using Internet accounts registered to Nawaf Alhamzi and Khalid Almihdhar - 9/11 hijackers - used public access computers in the library of a state college in New Jersey," Wainstein testified before a House Judiciary subcommittee.

"The computers in the library were used to review and order airline tickets in an Internet travel reservations site," he said.

On Aug. 30, 2001, someone using Alhamzi's account logged on to a computer at the school to check on travel reservations for Sept. 11, 2001, that had already been made, he added.

Wainstein did not identify the college, but an official with William Paterson University in Wayne said that shortly after the attacks, investigators

Another friend worked at the library - was queastioned (along with others) if saw any of the hijackers or other
characters using the library

The terrorists were able to "blend in" and live here for months

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by maxella1

 

OK - will take you on tour of all the terrorists hot spots here in NJ

Most are ony 2-3 miles from where I live

Clues in Paterson, N.J.

Meanwhile, investigators believe the New Jersey city of Paterson, just 25 miles from the twin towers, may have been the base for a major terrorist cell. ABCNEWS has learned that during the three months prior to the attack, 11 of the 19 suspected hijackers lived in or near Paterson.

A building at 486 Union Ave. was home to six of the terrorists until just days before the attacks. According to the FBI, the third floor apartment was rented for the last six months by Nawak Al-Hamzi and Hani Hanjour, two of the hijackers of Flight 77 that slammed into the Pentagon.

House on Union Ave was raided just after 9/11, one of my friends (no retired) was K9 handler for local sheriff
department - was (with his dog) first one through the door

At least two of the hijackers stayed at a motel in Wayne, N.J., and others rented small planes at nearby airports for flight practice. Others used phony names and addresses to rent cars for long road trips.

Airport is Essex County airport in Caldwell, used to work at building across the street

"Investigators tracing the activities of the hijackers determined that, on four occasions in August of 2001, individuals using Internet accounts registered to Nawaf Alhamzi and Khalid Almihdhar - 9/11 hijackers - used public access computers in the library of a state college in New Jersey," Wainstein testified before a House Judiciary subcommittee.

"The computers in the library were used to review and order airline tickets in an Internet travel reservations site," he said.

On Aug. 30, 2001, someone using Alhamzi's account logged on to a computer at the school to check on travel reservations for Sept. 11, 2001, that had already been made, he added.

Wainstein did not identify the college, but an official with William Paterson University in Wayne said that shortly after the attacks, investigators

Another friend worked at the library - was queastioned (along with others) if saw any of the hijackers or other
characters using the library

The terrorists were able to "blend in" and live here for months

I agree with you, they were able to "blend in".
If WTC buildings had explosives in them, is it also possible that whoever planted the explosives were able to “blend in” like the hijackers were able to?

reply to post by maxella1

But they were confident that passengers wouldn’t try to resist?
What if other passengers had bigger box cutters?

Prior to 9/11 that was the rule - you did not resist a hijacking. FAA regulations actually made it an offense to
resist a hijacking

Rule was before 9/11 hijackers were not kamikazes bent on flying planes into buildings

Theory was hijackers wanted plane & passengers as hostages, will land somewhere and demand government
pay ransoms or release jailed terrorists

Also on the 2 earliest flight (American 11/United 175) flight attendents following the rules did not inform
passengers of hijacking. Idea was keep everyone calm, no heroics, hijackers will land plane and police will
handle it

On United 93 passngers had enough time to make phone calls and find out hijackers plans - this lead to
attempt to storm cockpit wheras hijackers crashed the plane before could wrestle control from them

reply to post by thedman


What if the terrorists hadn't crashed those jets on 9/11, but it was America's two biggest dumbas*** instead?

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by maxella1

 

But they were confident that passengers wouldn’t try to resist?
What if other passengers had bigger box cutters?

Prior to 9/11 that was the rule - you did not resist a hijacking. FAA regulations actually made it an offense to
resist a hijacking

Rule was before 9/11 hijackers were not kamikazes bent on flying planes into buildings

Theory was hijackers wanted plane & passengers as hostages, will land somewhere and demand government
pay ransoms or release jailed terrorists

Also on the 2 earliest flight (American 11/United 175) flight attendents following the rules did not inform
passengers of hijacking. Idea was keep everyone calm, no heroics, hijackers will land plane and police will
handle it

On United 93 passngers had enough time to make phone calls and find out hijackers plans - this lead to
attempt to storm cockpit wheras hijackers crashed the plane before could wrestle control from them

really? what textbook did you get these rules from?

reply to post by maxella1

I agree with you, they were able to "blend in".
If WTC buildings had explosives in them, is it also possible that whoever planted the explosives were able to “blend in” like the hijackers were able to?

.

I guess you never had a "real job" in a modern skyscraper

Anyone entering building has to present ID and be on access list. Frequently must, if doing work, provide
proof of insurance

You dont just waltz in and tell 'em "We are from NWO Demolition here to plant explosives in building..."

Have to go through vetting process

Also in NYC, all the freight elevators are controlled by unions. Must make arrangements to use them and have
union operators (who want big bucks...)

So explain how get explosives in building and up to the imapct floors

reply to post by maxella1

But they were confident that passengers wouldn’t try to resist?

I think they were pretty confident.

What if other passengers had bigger box cutters?

Always a possibility, but pretty remote. These were domestic flights and most Americans didn't fly around with machetes in their carry on.

reply to post by maxella1

really? what textbook did you get these rules from?

911 Commission

Statement of James C. May to the
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States

May 22, 2003

Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, I am James May, president and CEO of the Air Transport Association of America. The ATA member airlines provide in excess of ninety-five percent of commercial air transportation in this country. Working through ATA, our members address common concerns of the airline industry and the government, including issues relating to aviation security. On behalf of the ATA, let me begin by thanking the Commission for the service it is performing-there can be no higher goal than ensuring that we learn everything possible from the events of September 11, 2001.

When I joined the Air Transport Association earlier this year, one of the top priorities I was given by our board of directors was to build upon and improve the industry's already very strong relationship with the Transportation Security Administration (TSA).

In coming to better understand the TSA/industry dynamic, I have, of course, been briefed on the history of the relationship between the government and the airlines relating to security, both before and after the events of 9/11. On that basis, let me offer a few observations relevant to your inquiry.


On 9/11, the airlines administered an aviation security program, directed and approved by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), which originated 30 years earlier and had been developed, fundamentally, to avert the threat of a "conventional" hijacking. (That term refers to the type of hijacking pre-dating 9/11, which involved the diverting of aircraft and subsequent negotiations with the hijacker(s).) This system was specifically designed as a "prevent or deter" system and was not a more intrusive "prevent and detect" system. The system was designed by the government to screen passengers and their hand luggage for various prohibited items-predominantly guns, but including an array of other weapons and devices as well. These items were believed by the FAA and law enforcement to be the likely tools of choice for a hijacker. In the event of a hijacking, the policy, which reflected the government's long-standing assessment of how to respond to such situations, was one of cooperation.

In addition, in cooperation with the government, the industry was engaged in deploying and testing various explosive baggage-screening technologies, to avert the threat of a terrorist bombing of an aircraft. Under the Security Equipment Integrated Product Team Program, which was established in the mid-1990s, approximately one hundred and sixty explosive-detection machines, purchased by the FAA, were installed and utilized by the airlines, to both screen for explosive materials and provide real-world testing of technologies that had been certified under laboratory conditions.

While, with tragic hindsight, we can now see that the pre-9/11 government security regime in its totality did not anticipate this type of attack, I am aware of no deviation from the established screening laws and regulations in effect on 9/11 that contributed in any way to the terrorist attack on the United States.

Let me be completely candid with regard to the reported role of box cutting devices in the attack. Under pre-9/11 FAA regulations only "knives with blades four inches long or longer and/or knives considered illegal under local law" were prohibited. Under a non-regulatory Checkpoint Operations Guide, developed by the FAA, the Regional Airline Association and the ATA, with FAA approval interpreting the FAA regulations, box cutting devices were considered a restricted item posing a potential danger. This meant that if such a device was identified, it could be kept off the aircraft. The FAA mandated metal-detection walk-through systems, however, were designed and tested to detect metallic items about the size of a small handgun or larger. The pre-9/11 screening system was not designed to detect or prohibit these types of small items, and we have no information indicating they were identified in the actual 9/11 screening of the terrorists.

Prior to 9/11, there had not been a hijacking of a U.S. carrier since 1991. In the three years prior, that there had been three hijacking events involving U.S. airlines worldwide.

In 2001, prior to 9/11, the FAA had issued fifteen Information Circulars relating security information to the industry. (An I.C. is used to communicate routine, non-specific security information.) Of these, four mentioned the term "hijacking"-three of them making a generic reference to the threat and one providing a more descriptive reference to a conventional hijacking concern. Beyond this, there was no general industry intelligence threat briefing co

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by maxella1

 

I agree with you, they were able to "blend in".
If WTC buildings had explosives in them, is it also possible that whoever planted the explosives were able to “blend in” like the hijackers were able to?

.

I guess you never had a "real job" in a modern skyscraper

Anyone entering building has to present ID and be on access list. Frequently must, if doing work, provide
proof of insurance

You dont just waltz in and tell 'em "We are from NWO Demolition here to plant explosives in building..."

Have to go through vetting process

Also in NYC, all the freight elevators are controlled by unions. Must make arrangements to use them and have
union operators (who want big bucks...)

So explain how get explosives in building and up to the imapct floors

it's pretty hard to hijack 4 airplanes, hit three of the targets, armed with box cutters all in one day too, but it sill happened, didn't it?
Not to mention the fact that some of the hijackers were know to CIA, and FBI.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by maxella1

 

But they were confident that passengers wouldn’t try to resist?

I think they were pretty confident.

What if other passengers had bigger box cutters?

Always a possibility, but pretty remote. These were domestic flights and most Americans didn't fly around with machetes in their carry on.

LOL, check this out...
blog.tsa.gov...

reply to post by thedman

911 Commission

So every passenger read the commission report before 9/11?

reply to post by maxella1

LOL, check this out...
blog.tsa.gov...

Yep, there are idiots out there. However, that does not mean most US passengers are regularly armed. The terrorist knew that but I am sure they also knew there was some risk involved.

If that was the case then they would have just said terrorist planted explosives in the buliding. Idk about you but I saw a plane. To answer the question, I could wire a building in 2-3 hours tops... but I will charge you for a full day.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by maxella1

 

LOL, check this out...
blog.tsa.gov...

Yep, there are idiots out there. However, that does not mean most US passengers are regularly armed. The terrorist knew that but I am sure they also knew there was some risk involved.

So I should just disregard your earlier statement?

No, but the "construction worker" can't depend on nobody, including the office workers, to never ask questions. What about all the maintenance workers? Inspectors? Remember, the buildings were owned by the Port Authority and their headquarters was in the World Trade Center which included their engineering and inspection staffs.