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American Patriotism is Misunderstood

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posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 08:48 PM
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Hey, a question has occurred to me. Seabag shared a nice little video here of some kids being Americans and NOT feeling downright bad about it for a change. So many call brainwashing though or blatant manipulation of the kids. Learned behavior or pure memorization are offered as reasons..... Well..Here is what bothers me. If some kids simply going through a ceremony with the American Flag is seen as pure propaganda and ugly examples of kids being used....

What do we call the 'mm mm mm' song kids WERE made to sing as a class project and requirement of participation in support of Obama in 2008?? We ARE going to be entirely fair here and note that kids being used as Props in White House events or being, again, made to sing campaign songs and give political support, are as bad or worse than a simply scene with the Flag, right?

Support to a candidate in SCHOOL is as much a manipulation and cruel stunt with the children as many are saying this flag video was..and I sure didn't see a teacher or other adult hovering over the kids here and correcting them every step to make sure they performed properly. Such IS the case when we watch the videos of school kids.

So..while everyone bashes some American kids simply enjoying the fact they are American..lets keep it real and call ALL political presentation of children in ANY way equally vile.

edit on 19-4-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000


So..while everyone bashes some American kids simply enjoying the fact they are American..lets keep it real and call ALL political presentation of children in ANY way equally vile.

edit on 19-4-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)


I dont think everyone is 'bashing' American kids. I'm certainly not.

They contention is with the OP's claim that this was entirely spontaneous, unlearned behavior, which is an absurd claim. They are mimicking what they see others around them do. That is not spontaneous, that is learned behavior.

And, as you point out, no different than kids being taught to sing a song about Obama.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by stanguilles7
 



Umm, they are kids emulating what they see.

I think one can argue thats brainwashing.

Your speculation into the intent, is just that


You’re either being intellectually dishonest or you’re intellectually challenged.


Do you see uniforms and organization in the video I posted in the OP??






The pic is an example of learned behavior disguised as patriotism

You have not even attempted to respond to my main point, which is that their behavior is a learned one, not a spontaneous one as you claim.

OBVIOUSLY this is something these kids have learned. As for your attempts at ascribing intent to their actions, that is just your speculation.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:04 PM
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That really brought a tear to my eye. I learned about that when I was in military school many years ago.

It's good to see that there are still people in this country who know what that flag really stands for, and teach that respect to their children.

As aggravated as I get about the jerks that are running this country into the ground, I still remember what that flag of ours stands for. It isn't what they stand for. All of those who have given their time and lives for what I have today, have earned my undying respect for their sacrifice. That includes you and all the others on ATS who are or have served the country.

They are the reason I get aggravated about the state of our country. I don't want their sacrifice to be in vain. By the way I still fly the flag in front of my home every day.
edit on 4/19/2012 by lonegurkha because: (no reason given)

edit on 4/19/2012 by lonegurkha because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by stanguilles7
 


Do you think these kids just stood up and did this because they have seen others doing it and have no Idea why they are doing it?

These are military kids on a military base. I'm sure their parents have explained to them what the colors ceremonies are about and why they are honored and respected in the manner that they are. These kids were doing what they felt was the right thing to do. Again, just because they respect the colors ceremony does not mean they are brainwashed.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by usmc0311
 

I had a strong feeling that was what I was watching here. I just haven't been on U.S. base housing to recognize it that quickly and for certain. I wondered where such a thing could be playing loud enough for kids on a playground in modern America to even hear, let along stop playing to respond to. Sad..when that is the best reasoning for having thought these probably were Military kids in base housing.


I'm sad that we can't look at this and honestly wonder if it may be a school in a big city or small town...anywhere at all around our nation.

When did loving our nation become something we are supposed to feel awkward about at best..and downright BAD about for so many?? I don't begrudge any Non-American for hating us. I really don't. There are a few nations I hate, myself. I'd still find it sad if the people living in those nations were literally made to feel bad by their own leaders for merely being born there though.
Ugh



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by usmc0311
reply to post by stanguilles7
 


Do you think these kids just stood up and did this because they have seen others doing it and have no Idea why they are doing it?


No, that's exactly my point. The OP is trying to claim it isnt learned behavior. My point is that of course it is, as is your point.


These are military kids on a military base. I'm sure their parents have explained to them what the colors ceremonies are about and why they are honored and respected in the manner that they are. These kids were doing what they felt was the right thing to do. Again, just because they respect the colors ceremony does not mean they are brainwashed.


"These kids were doing what they felt was the right thing to do."

And you know that because you did an extensive interview with them?



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:21 PM
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reply to post by stanguilles7
 



I dont think everyone is 'bashing' American kids. I'm certainly not. They contention is with the OP's claim that this was entirely spontaneous, unlearned behavior, which is an absurd claim.


What I said was:

They did so NOT because they were told to or because they are brainwashed. These kids did so innocently on their own because it’s what they know….it’s their environment….it’s their PATRIOTISM. They are paying respect to America’s ‘colors’ as their parents do.


It is a LEARNED behavior not a TAUGHT behavior. China, N. Korea et al MAKE kids do things like this.



They are mimicking what they see others around them do. That is not spontaneous, that is learned behavior.


It IS learned (mimicking) and it WAS spontaneous. Did you see an adult telling them to do that or did they do it on their own??



And, as you point out, no different than kids being taught to sing a song about Obama.


If you don’t see a difference between some kids mimicking what they’ve seen their parents do and a SONG TAUGHT BY THEIR TEACHER AND REHEARSED then something is wrong with your perception. You CAN’T be serious!




edit on 19-4-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by seabag

It is a LEARNED behavior not a TAUGHT behavior.


I had not realized there was a distinction.

Doesnt someone need to be taught something to learn it?



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:35 PM
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reply to post by stanguilles7
 


Well, I didn't see anyone standing there ordering them to do it. By judgeing from my many years on military bases I still say that yes, they probably know exactly what they are doing and are doing it because they feel it is right. Now I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by stanguilles7

Originally posted by seabag

It is a LEARNED behavior not a TAUGHT behavior.


I had not realized there was a distinction.

Doesnt someone need to be taught something to learn it?



So you don’t learn without instruction from another human being? Did your parents teach you that it hurts when you fall down or did you learn that on your own? How about sex? Were you really instructed how to do it or did you learn that on your own through other means? Are you saying that everything you know was TAUGHT? You don’t possess the ability to learn on your own without instruction?


edit on 19-4-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by seabag

Originally posted by stanguilles7

Originally posted by seabag

It is a LEARNED behavior not a TAUGHT behavior.


I had not realized there was a distinction.

Doesnt someone need to be taught something to learn it?



So you don’t learn without instruction from another human being? Did your parents teach you that it hurts when you fall down or did you learn that on your own? How about sex? Were you really instructed how to do it or did you learn that on your own through other means? Are you saying that everything you know was TAUGHT? You don’t possess the ability to learn on your own without instruction?





So your claim is that these kids had an innate understanding of this ceremony, much like their experience of pain, or passion, and that it wasn't just them doing something they see others do?

That, as American children, they are born with an innate sense of American Patriotism that is akin to an innate sex drive?



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 10:13 PM
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reply to post by stanguilles7
 



So your claim is that these kids had an innate understanding of this ceremony, much like their experience of pain, or passion, and that it wasn't just them doing something they see others do? That, as American children, they are born with an innate sense of American Patriotism that is akin to an innate sex drive?


WOW!


It’s a learned behavior…they witnessed it and are emulating the behavior. Nobody pulled them aside and said, “KIDS, THIS IS WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU HEAR THIS SOUND.” Do you know what TEACH means?

It’s touching to see kids do something like this (not just to ME but to many Americans). If you don’t get it and you think it’s a sad thing I understand your perspective….I’ve been hearing it here on ATS for a while.


Some people get it!






edit on 19-4-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by seabag
 

S&F

Two words I have yet to see here (on this thread)
Dignity
Honour.
(I can wiki the definitions if needed, but I think everyone here is smart enough)

Many who feel patriotism, specifically americans, have a sense of dignity about them. It spans socio-, economic, cultural barriers. There is a certain nobility surrounding a person who is patriotic. A person who is willing to step beyond his or her personal needs for an ideal far greater than themselves.
The honour, the unselfish approach to doing what is right versus what is right for them, imbued in a patriot is the antithesis of what many consider as modern thinking in America.

Some cringe at the concept of patriotism because that may mean personal sacrifice. Patriotism have been twisted into "paying taxes" and obeying the government edicts. But that is a sacrifice of ones worth. Not of ones self.

Just my humble 2 cents.

*Salute*



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 10:47 PM
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reply to post by seabag
 


Just Awesome!

My Uncle used to play Reveille,every morning.


All the kids,were at the Table,before it ended. It was a mad dash to get to the kitchen!!!



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 10:58 PM
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reply to post by seabag
 


Your attempt to characterize my response as anti-patriotic is incorrect and unsupported by anything Ive stated.

I merely pointed out that despite what the OP claims, this is a LEARNED behavior, not a spontaneous one.

But if you just want a thread celebrating blind patriotism amongst kids deeply indoctrinated in military culture, I'll leave you to it.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 11:22 PM
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reply to post by seabag
 


Did I say it wasn't my opinion?



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 11:26 PM
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reply to post by stanguilles7
 



Your attempt to characterize my response as anti-patriotic is incorrect and unsupported by anything Ive stated.

I merely pointed out that despite what the OP claims, this is a LEARNED behavior, not a spontaneous one.

But if you just want a thread celebrating blind patriotism amongst kids deeply indoctrinated in military culture, I'll leave you to it.


I’m the one who said it’s a LEARNED behavior. You, sir, are conducting an argument with yourself.

I think you should start a thread and debate yourself….I think you can pull it off.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by RealSpoke
 



Did I say it wasn't my opinion?


No.

I’m not sure which post of yours you’re talking about but you should use quotations if it’s not your own words.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 11:46 PM
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One has to understand what patriotism IS, first and foremost. I believe it was Samuel Johnson who defined patriotism as "the last refuge of scoundrels", so the misconceptions of what is patriotism have been around for a long time.

Patriotism is an allegiance. It's not an allegiance to a flag. A flag is a bit of colorful cloth. It represents something else, but at the end of the day it's a piece of cloth if left to stand alone. It's not an allegiance to a government. Governments often find themselves at odds with the people they are supposed to represent, and undeserving of the allegiance of those people they run roughshod over. It's not an allegiance to a patch of ground. A patch of ground is, after all, nothing more than dirt, a collection of mineral bits that happens not to be under water.

Patriotism is an allegiance to a people, more specifically, YOUR people. It is the people of a nation that give meaning to that nation, it's government, it's flag, even it's dirt. Without that people, a nation is nothing... LITERALLY nothing. A nation does not exist at all, in any form, independent of it's people.

When you pledge allegiance, you do not do so to the flag, the government, or the land. when you go to war, you do not do so for a flag, a government, or a land. If you die there, you do not die for a flag, a government, or a patch of dirt.

You do it for PEOPLE. Your mothers, brothers, sisters, cousins, friends, opponents, and all permutations thereof. Without them, your nation is nothing, your sacrifice is nothing, your respect is nothing.

When you pledge allegiance, when you face the Colors, your not doing it for a flag or a government, a god or a king, you're showing respect for your people. You can, of course, and many DO, choose to disrespect them instead. That is your prerogative. The hell of it is, even if you do, someone, somewhere, will still respect YOU enough, in spite of your disrespect of him, to lay it all on the line at the sharp end on your behalf so that you never, ever have to. Some of you may be able to face yourself in the mirror knowing that, and it's fine with me if you can. I can't. I have to respect myself, because respect for the self comes first, before you can ever know what respect even is to give it to any one else.

Thank you for this thread. I've been wresting with my own "patriotism" for a couple of weeks now in the face of injustice delivered by a self-proclaimed justice system to another individual. This thread crystallized it for me, clarified it, got everything back in order and prioritized for me.

It got my ducks back in a row, and for that, I salute you.




edit on 2012/4/20 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)




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