Homosexuality Within the Pulpit

Greetings ATS'ers. I am here today to discuss everyone's insights and opinions on homosexuality within the Christian church.

In this day and age, you get two sides of an extreme; one side is rather "flamboyant" about their anti-gay rhetoric, and the other side is OK with homosexuality, and promotes it within the church, saying that it is OK.

First off, I am not a gay basher... I am quite sympathetic towards the gay community; I opened up a time capsule a year ago that had writings of pro-homosexual marriages while I was in 8th grade. In my eyes, if homosexuals want to be legally viewed as a married couple, let them be.

However, the main point of this debate today is to discuss homosexuality within the Church; Are homosexual Pastors teaching a false doctrine by promoting homosexuality within the church, just like how the hateful pastors are teaching to stone and condemn homosexuals?

One main argument of the pro-homosexual Christian stance is that God's equal love is for everyone of his creation. My rebuttal is that, yes God does love each and every single one of His creation, but how can you say that you love Him back when you love the world more? I believe that the teachers should be set to a higher degree, they should exemplify what it means to love Christ.

In my eyes, having a homosexual pastor is like having a pastor that indulges in prostitutes, as is having a hateful pastor spewing condemnation of homosexuals is like having a pastor that steals and/or murders.

Thoughts and opinions please

I don't believe one sin is more heinous than another. I do not believe a homosexual Pastor would advocate homosexuality, his job would be to advocate Christ. I have not understood Churches who expect perfect Pastors. When a Pastor "Sins" they kick him/her to the curb. Why? I believe that God can use absolutely anyone to speak/teach for Him. It is just my opinion.

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

John 8:7

bible.cc...

Originally posted by Iamschist
I don't believe one sin is more heinous than another. I do not believe a homosexual Pastor would advocate homosexuality, his job would be to advocate Christ. I have not understood Churches who expect perfect Pastors. When a Pastor "Sins" they kick him/her to the curb. Why? I believe that God can use absolutely anyone to speak/teach for Him. It is just my opinion.

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

John 8:7

bible.cc...

Thank you for replying, and frankly, my thoughts are similar to yours, that God can use absolutely anyone to speak/teach for him.

To reply to your question of why the church kicks out a pastor if he sins, I believe that is part of God's plan for that individual, for refining of that person's character.

I also do not believe one sin is more heinous than the other, except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that is why I compared homosexual pastors teaching a false doctrine of promoting homosexuality with spiteful pastors promoting hate and condemnation.

Are homosexual Pastors teaching a false doctrine by promoting homosexuality within the church, just like how the hateful pastors are teaching to stone and condemn homosexuals?

This question arose today because I was told of an opportunity by my friend for a job that paid relatively well for someone of my age. It was basically to go door to door with flyers promoting a politician. I did a little background information on him, and I've concluded that he advocates homosexuality within his congregation. I may be wrong, but I want to hear the opinions of others.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


I think we need to stop forming our opinions of people by what they do, or what we think they do in the bedroom. Many so called straight people may, in the privacy of their own home engage in sexual acts we might find shocking or not something we understand, but it is none of our business. Just because someone prefers someone of the same sex as a partner, does not tell us what if anything goes on in their bedroom. Homosexuality is an orientation, not an act.

Originally posted by Iamschist
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

I think we need to stop forming our opinions of people by what they do, or what we think they do in the bedroom. Many so called straight people may, in the privacy of their own home engage in sexual acts we might find shocking or not something we understand, but it is none of our business. Just because someone prefers someone of the same sex as a partner, does not tell us what if anything goes on in their bedroom. Homosexuality is an orientation, not an act.

I understand with what you are saying, but you are missing the point of my thread. The main question that is being asked is: is it a false doctrine for homosexual pastors promoting homosexuality WITHIN the church.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


All right let me ask you this. Does a Pastor who commits adultery promote adultery within the Church? Does a Pastor who embezzles or becomes addicted to porn, promote these activities?

Originally posted by Iamschist
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

All right let me ask you this. Does a Pastor who commits adultery promote adultery within the Church? Does a Pastor who embezzles or becomes addicted to porn, promote these activities?

Well, to my limited knowledge, I don't know. Once I do more research, I will be able to properly articulate my response. For now, I think Yes, I think if a pastor does anything of what is listed above will set the same spirits upon the congregation. A lot of denominations and churches have gone astray so they can promote their indulgences. For example, Paul's letters to the Corinthians about a member's sexuality immorality.

www.enduringword.com...

b. That he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you: Clearly, this was Paul’s solution to the problem – to take this notoriously unrepentant man away from the protection of the fellowship of God’s people. Yet, the Corinthian Christians were not doing this. Why not? How could this kind of thing be allowed?

i. Remember that Corinth was a city notorious for sexual immorality, and the pagan religions did not value sexual purity. It wasn’t hard for a Corinthian to think you could be religious, yet still act any way you pleased when it came to sex. Greek culture could matter-of-factly say: “Mistresses we keep for the sake of pleasure, concubines for the daily care of the body, but wives to bear us legitimate children.”

ii. Wouldn’t they know it was wrong through the Old Testament? Though Leviticus 18:8 expressly forbids a man to have sex with his stepmother (The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover) some rabbis, such as Rabbi Akibah, said such a relationship was permissible for a Gentile who converted to Judaism, because they were a completely new person, and their old family relationship didn’t count at all.

iii. More than anything, the Corinthian Christians were probably allowing this in the name of “tolerance.” They probably were saying to themselves, “Look how loving we are. We are accepting this brother just as he is. Look how open-minded we are!” We should never underestimate what people will allow in the name of “open-mindedness.”

c. The Corinthian Christians were proud (you are puffed up) of their acceptance of this man; they thought it said something good about them! But instead of glorying, they should have been grieving, both for the man and for what they must do to him (be taken away from among you).

The same can be applied to the US instead of Corinth. Corinth was known for its sexual activities, and homosexuality is trending in the US.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


Yes Paul is the basis for the extreme intolerance of the right wing conservative church these days. My question is how much do you "sin" and even though you repent, you will most likely and indeed do commit that same sin again. I believe it is my job as a believer to lift people up, to be about forgiveness and reparation rather than judgement and separation. It is the job of God to judge, imho I can trust Him with this.

I think it's hypocritical to exclude anyone from the pulpit based on cultural biases. You're implying that gays can't be "true" Christians based on their sexual orientation. In fact, it seems to me, that the Catholic church with its abhorance of sexuality of any kind is a hotbed for homosexual monks and priests. Should gay catholic priests be defrocked?

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


If the doctrine of the church is anti-homosexual and that doctrine is absolute and not subject to change, then, yes, it would go against said doctrine to promote homosexuality.

That said, the main consideration is the statement that religious doctrine is absolute and not subject to change. Many will state emphatically that this is the case. However, one example of the the fallacy of this statement is the change in doctrine regarding Jesus. When I was a child going to Sunday school I happened to refer to Jesus as God and was firmly told that Jesus was the Son of God and not God himself. Doctrine today, on the other hand, decrees that Jesus was God incarnate, and they will also state that this has always been the case; which I know, through personal experience, is not so. This is only one example of a change in doctrine in recent times.

That would also seem to be the case, in some churches, where homosexuality is concerned. In the past, if a Preacher were to take a pro-homosexual position, he would be excommunicated from the church. He violated doctrine and was swiftly removed as a representative. Which, by the way, was the case of the founder of the Metropolitan Community Church. Today, though, many denominations are re-evaluating their stance regarding homosexuality and are beginning to accept gays into their congregations. A change in doctrine.

I will go out on a limb here and comment as to my hypothesis of the actual purpose of this thread. You stated that you have a decent paying job opportunity, but that job is working for some one who is supportive of homosexuality. You state that you are not a gay basher, yet associate its practice with that of prostitution, theft, and murder. Your belief system, at this time, decrees that homosexuality is a sin, so to work for this man it would require that you: re-evaluate your belief system, reject it entirely, or suffer hypocrisy in order to make a good wage. Am I close? Quite the quandary if that is the case. My only response is that you have to follow your heart as to which is more important to you.

But then, I am an old homosexual; so, in some person's opinion, everything I have written is tainted anyway.

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
Greetings ATS'ers. I am here today to discuss everyone's insights and opinions on homosexuality within the Christian church.

In this day and age, you get two sides of an extreme; one side is rather "flamboyant" about their anti-gay rhetoric, and the other side is OK with homosexuality, and promotes it within the church, saying that it is OK.

First off, I am not a gay basher... I am quite sympathetic towards the gay community; I opened up a time capsule a year ago that had writings of pro-homosexual marriages while I was in 8th grade. In my eyes, if homosexuals want to be legally viewed as a married couple, let them be.

However, the main point of this debate today is to discuss homosexuality within the Church; Are homosexual Pastors teaching a false doctrine by promoting homosexuality within the church, just like how the hateful pastors are teaching to stone and condemn homosexuals?

One main argument of the pro-homosexual Christian stance is that God's equal love is for everyone of his creation. My rebuttal is that, yes God does love each and every single one of His creation, but how can you say that you love Him back when you love the world more? I believe that the teachers should be set to a higher degree, they should exemplify what it means to love Christ.

In my eyes, having a homosexual pastor is like having a pastor that indulges in prostitutes, as is having a hateful pastor spewing condemnation of homosexuals is like having a pastor that steals and/or murders.

Thoughts and opinions please

I think that pastors should teach mercy towards homosexuals, as per shown in the bible when there was a group of folks (who believed in the existence of God) with intent upon stoning an unfaithful woman, and Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." When the woman realized that she wasn't about to die at that moment, Jesus asked her, "Where are your accusers?", “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Jesus sought to spare her life because he believed that she was fully capable of leaving her life of sin. Christians who teach that "There is none righteous." and "All your good works are like dirty rags." really ought to be careful of what they are saying, as we all should. That we who believe in the existence of God should learn from Jesus, to put into practice his teachings. You don't condone sin when you tell another to leave their life of sin, you don't condemn to death those who know they have sinned but tell them to stop sinning lest something worse happen to them. Many of those whom Jesus loves are walking to hell, Jesus sends his followers with the task of fishing for men. Those who do not gather, scatter abroad. Most important thing any of us can do is to learn from Jesus, not to be loved by others but to be loved by God, for He has the power to destroy both body and soul in hell.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


Yes they are preaching false doctrine if they are pro-gay, but there are worse things than being homosexual to Christ, and that is being unforgiving and unmerciful and incompassionate.

Why does this even keep popping up when there are tons of other threads addressing the very issue? If you are truly saved you will not want to be gay because Christ writes his laws on your minds and on your hearts so you want to keep them, you want to please him, not walk after your own lusts. Yeshua is God, he is the very same who wrote the old laws in the first place but those laws are gone. He was against sexual immorality amoung many other things and homosexuality is classifed in the Holy Bible as a sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 6: 1-11

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

When you accept Christ homosexuality is to be taken from you, this means you put it down and repent. Repent means to change your mind and no longer do a thing you once did. If Christ really dwells within you, you will want to please him and not yourself and you will want to put it down.

Now enough of this, if anyone else wants to discuss this matter for the millionth time, that is what the search bar is for!