A fog of drugs and war

reply to post by Aim64C

Thank you for the clarification. I was unsure because a friend of mine went to enlist in the Marines back in 97 and he was told that if he was diagnosed with depression, he could enlist, but at the same time, if he had taken anti-depressants, they would not accept his enlistment. My conspiratorial mind was thinking that the military did not want anyone with prozac in them because the fluoride would cloud their judgement and reaction time.

Again, thanks for the insight.
spec

reply to post by speculativeoptimist

My conspiratorial mind was thinking that the military did not want anyone with prozac in them because the fluoride would cloud their judgement and reaction time.

There are probably a number of factors behind that.

The Military, for the longest time, would not allow those who had undergone laser eye surgery to pilot aircraft - regardless of the quality of eyesight. The concerns were over whether or not the incision made on the cornea and later allowed to heal would hold up under the G-forces of combat pilots. In all reality - so long as proper time for healing is allowed and the surgeon does a quality job - there is no real risk of problems. The Navy has since allowed its aviators to come from people who have undergone laser eye surgery. I'm not sure about the Air Force.

Sometimes the military has a tendency to be just as paranoid and silly as these boards can. ... Like how, in the attempt to preserve system security, they would require everyone to change their passwords to different sites (all of which had to be accessed by separate user names and passwords); they would have people reset their 15-digit minimum alphanumeric(capitals and specials required to be included) every month, and not allowing it to match their previous ten passwords.

Then they wonder why unauthorized people were able to call in and get access to restricted sites by claiming to have forgotten their password.

Thankfully - a lot of that has gone by the way side as they've integrated a lot of sites under BUPERS, NSIPS, and NKO with CAC access... but it's only a matter of time before I have to submit a semen sample or something equally bizarre each time I want to complete the ultra-secret Equal Opportunity and Sexual Assault GMTs.

Anyway - just to give you an idea that they don't always do stuff for a sensible reason. They do it because someone has the power to set that policy and decided that it was to be the policy. The policy continued because no one saw reason to overturn the policy.

As for the anti-depressants, that could have also been due to concerns over limited real-world demographic data on the long-term effects. If I recall - a number of the re-uptake inhibitors were rather new in the 90s, and they were almost a wonder solution for a number of individuals who would have had to be institutionalized, otherwise. So I could see how there would be some concern over: "so... what happens fifteen... twenty years later?"

The Marines, also, are known for being very picky about their recruits in terms of physical criteria.

Originally posted by Leftist

A fog of drugs and war

www.latimes.com

After two long-running wars with escalating levels of combat stress, more than 110,000 active-duty Army troops last year were taking prescribed antidepressants, narcotics, sedatives, antipsychotics and anti-anxiety drugs, according to figures recently disclosed to The Times by the U.S. Army surgeon general. Nearly 8% of the active-duty Army is now on sedatives and more than 6% is on antidepressants — an eightfold increase since 2005.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Mainstream America is taking so much of the drugs it is effecting the municipal water systems across the Fruited Plain. While you will get no argument with me to enact a draft and limit Combat tours to 3 in 6 years, what ever will you do with the stress of the working man,

Judging you by your avatar I say we all stop working stop paying taxes then let your self imposed government of communism feed and house and cloth us. Maybe a nice wardrobe of Black Pajamas are in order.Some get red Berets with Cammo depending. zat Work For You? Sound about Right?

reply to post by Maxmars


Not at all, I thank you for your answer, though I don't actually agree with you on all of it... I'm not talking about being there in the situation and then pulling out. But just refusing to go to the situation at all if you deem it immoral.

I do understand you, I just don't think it is right. I mean if you were told to go massacre a village, you're telling me that you would just go do it because it is not for you to question. This is a big problem and it has allowed genocide around the world. It is what allowed hitler to get where he did.

You didn't make an oath to do whatever you were told, in the USA you're signing your oath to defend the constitution, from all enemies foreign and domestic! I hear nothing here about being a robot and doing whatever you are told to do.

Personally I would never join the army in the first place because I know enough to know that you do not fight for the people, you fight for politicians. I know you will most likely vehemently disagree here but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

If the system we live in was just and the politicians were honest and respectable then being in the army would be very noble. I don't think that is the case though.

I think we are going to hugely disagree and I don't want to get in a big row with you over it.

Again I'll thank you for your honest reply.

Originally posted by rebellender

Mainstream America is taking so much of the drugs it is effecting the municipal water systems across the Fruited Plain.

A while ago i read an article linked to on another forum about fish changing sex due to some type of drug getting into the water supply. Cant remember which but may have been birth control. Sounded frightening UNTIL one takes into consideration this little biological FACT that i happened to read about in a marine biology book nearly two decades ago...and happens to be true:

SEX CHANGE IN FISH FOUND COMMON

www.nytimes.com...

Just goes to show what happens when reporters are not qualified or do not know what they are talking about.

Here is another link to whet your whistle:

megan-jungwi.suite101.com...

Originally posted by mee30
reply to post by usmc0311

 

Can i just ask you something? Did you not know that you were going in and attacking another country that had done nothing to your own? Please I don't want to come across as though I'm attacking you. I just genuinely want to understand why soldiers go to a war most other people know is unjustified and immoral.

Couldn't you have just told them to stick it? Couldn't you of refused?

I do want to commend you for doing the right thing now though and I'm glad you got off the drugs and are feeling better for it.

I signed up pre-911 so I did not expect what was to come. I think there were some good things done though. I personally believe it was a good thing to get Sadaam out of power but I also feel that it should not have required an invasion/occupation. Maxmars summed it up preety good in his post. We will follow our orders if they are lawfull and most aren't willing to face the punishment for refusing lawful orders, including me.

Now unlawful orders are a different story. I did once refuse an order that I deemed to be unlawful and was correct in doing so. My platoon commander at the time was just a moron. Most of us 'good ones', just try to make the best out of a bad situation. We are a warrior culture and we will never let our fellow Marines/Soldiers down while we are in combat. It just is really unfortunate how things are turining out with this whole situation.

reply to post by mee30

I do understand you, I just don't think it is right. I mean if you were told to go massacre a village, you're telling me that you would just go do it because it is not for you to question. This is a big problem and it has allowed genocide around the world. It is what allowed hitler to get where he did.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice stipulates that members of the military are to follow all lawful orders.

usmilitary.about.com...

Seems like pretty good motivation to obey any order you're given, right? Nope. These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders -- if the order was illegal.

"I was only following orders," has been unsuccessfully used as a legal defense in hundreds of cases (probably most notably by Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg tribunals following World War II). The defense didn't work for them, nor has it worked in hundreds of cases since.

. . .The Court of Military Appeals held that "the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal." (Interestingly, the soldier who gave Keenan the order, Corporal Luczko, was acquitted by reason of insanity).

Personally I would never join the army in the first place because I know enough to know that you do not fight for the people, you fight for politicians. I know you will most likely vehemently disagree here but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

We fight for our comrades more than anything... and the people you can help while you are there. You don't always get a choice in where you go, or what your mission is. But you take it upon yourself to see to it that things are done the best way you can possibly do them.

You might be trying to make a swimming pool in a glacier... but at least you'll be seeing to it that it is built to code.

Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
reply to post by usmc0311

 

"I will never forgive the government for the things I have been through"

Like what, I am just curious as a person who supports our troops no matter what, unlike some others here at ATS.

Send me a U2U if you need to.

The thing that bothers me the most about the deployments and srvice in combat is how we are forced to treat the people. We were made to go into houses in the middle of the night and roust everyone up while women and children are screaming and just overall being made to look at them as if they are not humans, or equal to us in anyway. The mentality they push on us is terrible but nessasary to their success. I have friends that are still duped by the system and it really sucks.

Also my health was excellent before the military and now I am considered 100% disabled with a heart condition and a digestive track that is wasting away from still unconfirmed cuases. Not to mention all the other smaller health issues I am plauged with on a daily basis. I'm thirty years old this year and my body is permanently damaged. I know that I will not live a long time and I only wait to see what cancer I will get first. My mind is still as sharp and as strong as ever so I am prepared for whatever comes my way. I just wish there was a better way to help others, and most importantly those who are much worse off then myself.

reply to post by usmc0311


But 9/11 was not the only time the government has pulled this stunt. Gulf of Tonkin incident springs to mind as but one example. They have done it in pretty much every war imaginable! The guys at the top (I'm not talking government here) fund both sides and play all sorts of games to get money and power! That's all it's about.

The whole warrior class thing is rather odd... It comes across like, "yeah we be killers! Word". Sorry but I gotta be honest.

And saying you fight for your fellow comrade more than anything else is just wrong! Your comrade is not paying you! I get why you would have that mentality, it doesn't make it right though...

You say it was good to get rid of sadam, really? So it's a better place over there now would you say?

I remember watching a documentary years ago when I was a lad, it was called behind the lines, I remember it clear as day! A investigator or reporter whatever you want to call him went over there to talk to the people. He was followed around by the police and found it quite hard to talk to people but he did manage. Anyway he was sat it some cafe and he got talking to someone, just general chit chat at first, then... "why are you still bombing us? 10 years now you bomb us. why?"

Right then I knew that what was going on wasn't right and that we were not getting the story in the press (hence why the guy went over there I suppose).

The iraq invasion has been deemed unlawful hasn't it?

reply to post by Aim64C


I'm not talking about the military code though! What is lawful is subjective. The wars have been deemed illegal by some people. And if the "military code" goes against the oath you take to defend the constitution, which wins out? The code? Or is it the programming you receive during "training"? I don't mean that to sound horrible. Or is it just the buzz of blowing s**t up and hanging with your comrades?

I think the only time you can use force is in self defense, that's the only moral time anyway. Otherwise you're just the aggressor/bully, nothing noble about that...

Anyway its midnight here and if I get into this I'll be here all night! Again!

Twas nice talking to you chaps... Just want to make something clear, I don't hate you, I hate what you do...

Goodnight all... If you want to give me a piece of your mind u2u me and I'll get you back tomorrow.

reply to post by mee30

The whole warrior class thing is rather odd... It comes across like, "yeah we be killers! Word". Sorry but I gotta be honest.

No, it's more of a brotherhood type thing. When under fire we fight mostly for the men next to us becuase when you are under fire that's the only people you can depend on.

You say it was good to get rid of sadam, really? So it's a better place over there now would you say?

Absolutely not. If he had been taken out and the country was given back to the people they would be much better off though. Our occupation has cuased many problems but it has fixed a few.

reply to post by mee30


I fully appreciate what you're saying.

But the truth is, when you are told to go to grid 54 by 12 and secure the village there... once someone starts shooting at you,, you're not expected to reassess whether this village will (ostensibly) be wrongly destroyed.

You went were you were told, and you are now faced with lethal force... if, in the aftermath, hindsight makes you realize that these people were not necessarily "the enemy", you have to consider - does that mean you were supposed to stand there and get shot?

I don't think you can characterize all actions taken by soldiers in the theater of combat as simply "going in there and shooting everything up, and making lot's of mayhem." It often happens that such actions don't end up as combat engagement.

Of course the cases where it does are the only things soldiers get associated with, because that is what those responsible for communicating such stories insist that's ALL you want to hear. (Not you personally, I mean that in the pejorative sense.)

I would normally complain about the unbalance, but in this case, I a somewhat muted because I prefer this message is clear... war is not 'clinical' or precise, and it is under only the most malignant logic, a "constructive" ordeal. Problem is, those who commit us to war RARELY if ever risk anything on it.... only "we" do.

I served to defend. Others serve to attack. But in war both are essential and necessary. Of course the ideal would be no war. Which is why I make sure people know, that "military" does not mean "war" - nor the other way around. We pledge ourselves to serve in the military because someone "must" (and it won't be our so-called leaders, or their associates.)


Soldiers do good things too... some more pertinent than anything the war was about in the first place.

When the battle-cry was raised after 9-11 I strongly resisted considering it a "solution" to what had happened.... it made me .. unpopular - as you can probably imagine. But I know what war does... it kills people.. mostly innocent people... and war's only true purpose is to serve itself.

I hope I am not breaking any forum rules by mentioning this. If I am I apologize. I strongly encourage anyone suffering from PTSD to ask their care provider about a new compound being used to treat PTSD. MDAI discovered by Sahsa Shulgin is and effective treatment that does not require a life spent ingesting dangerous medications. There are few side effects and risks associated with this chemical compound. Another plus is this is not something you will have to take every day or for the rest of your life. The current medications overtime will damage your vital organs. For anyone suffering from PTSD please read the research and if you like what you see I encourage you to ask your care provider if it is available to you in your area.

My heart goes out to anyone suffering PTSD. You have been done a great misdeed and I wish you well on your road to recovery.

Originally posted by usmc0311. We either run into people who constantly thank us for what we do or people that constantly berate us as well. Neither of which we appreciate

I thank vets for their service whenever I meet them - it's all I can offer them. Do vets not like this? I don't understand why it would annoy them - but then again, I've never been to war. I once thanked a 90 year old WWII vet for his service - he was standing, alone, outside a grocery store on a rainy day waiting for his grandson to pick him up. I recognised him as a friend of my late-great grandfather's.

He and I stood there in the rain, and he recounted to me his experiences at the battle of Dieppe, which was a so-called 'practice run' for D-Day devised by the British and paid for in blood by Canadians, suffering nearly 3500 kia, mia and wounded. This elderly gentleman lost of a lot of friends that day, and lost others as the war progressed.

The man was a true hero, honest to goodness. And yet here he was, beaming with joy after being approached by a virtual stranger who thnaked him for his sevice.

He passed away about 10 years ago. That generation is disappearing quickly - our grandchildren will have only black and white images - they don't convey the true nature of hearing the story from a living breathing human being.

reply to post by Monger


I guess with myself and many others I know it just makes us uncomfortable becuase it is hard to tell why some people thank us. But in the case you stated I fully understand and I hope that we can be looked at like that one day, but with the complexity of the situation of these current wars, I don't believe it will be the same.

Maybe some like the attention but I prefer to not be put on a pedistal just for serving my country and doing what I felt at the time was the right thing to do. I love the Marine Corps and all my fellow Marines, but I am very bitter about how we are, and have been treated by the government.

Originally posted by usmc0311
reply to post by Monger

 

I guess with myself and many others I know it just makes us uncomfortable becuase it is hard to tell why some people thank us. But in the case you stated I fully understand and I hope that we can be looked at like that one day, but with the complexity of the situation of these current wars, I don't believe it will be the same.

Well I can tell you that that resonates with me, I've had family and friends who have served, including in the Afghan conflict. Like I said, I never served myself, although I'm a bit of an idealist I guess and I see it as an honourable thing to do. But then again, we live in a world where honour has no merit alongside greed and petty disputes. Sometimes a war a very clearly justified thing, but other times.. the water's pretty muddy, to say the least.

Just know that when a stranger approaches you and offers their thanks for your service, he or she does so with the best of intentions. And with that said, I'll go ahead and thank you for your service. You can take it or leave it

Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
I had the same thing happen to me a while back.
I believe it may be the source you cited, was it SOTT by chance? ATS has disqualified them because they have spread lies about ATS.
I think the mods should send out a member wide u2 so that everyone is aware.

This makes the site sound already more interesting!

Pharma is evil business and this just proves even more that war isn't natural for humans.

Oh my goodness... I hadn't given much thought to the idea that the Military was doping their people as heavily and frequently as the general public is getting it. Oh now doesn't that just put a new spin on behavior we see? I'd rather have 1,000 depressed Marines than ONE Marine on Anti-depressants. Natural human depression can be dealt with a WHOLE lot easier for predicting actions and relying on the person than drugs which have their own forms of highs and lows with other problems tossed in.

Am I the crazy one or would it be reasonable to say that when a man reaches the point for *ANY* reason that Psych drugs...OF ANY KIND...are necessary, that man is better off NOT going into combat with automatic weapons and nothing but his own judgement to rely on????

Yet another very pressing reason to call this war a draw or whatever and get out. Quickly. Now we get to imagine 18-19-20 somethings ALSO dealing with the effects and interactions of all forms of Pharma solutions at the same time they're in the most intense and emotional activity Mankind ever engages in. Oh jeeze.. what could possibly go wrong?!

how many taliban do you think are on prozac. the answer is zero since their concious is clean, they invaded and attacked no one.

second, americans live in disneyland, an isolated patch of land where they are constantly told they are the best by a talking head.

not the real world, the one outside not protected by nuclear missiles.

when these soldiers see gruesome deaths and murder afghani's, because that's what it is murder. afghani's are fighting in self defence, it is not like in the movies, it has consequences.

reply to post by randomname


The ISAF soldier is fighting for self defense, as well. Fighting for the chance to go back to base that night, fighting to defend their comrads to either side of them. Believe it or not, say what you will, but there are some western soldiers who believe that they're doing good for the Afghanis and endeavour to do so. The individual soldier didn't ask to be deployed to serve in Iraq of Afghanistan. Some join because they feel they owe their service to their country, not out of animosity toward the muslim world. In our society, military service is heavily honoured. Young people either see it as a way to escape poverty, or to escape criminality.

Some, but not all.

Just as not all jihadis or mujahid are local Afghans fighting the 'evil' foreign invader. Some just like to fight, to maim, murder and distroy. Just to all around cause mayhem, for any cause. A certain type of person is just way into killing other people.

And that type of person is on both sides of every war.