Fabrice Muamba: Racist Twitter user jailed for 56 days (Right or Wrong)

*sigh*


This incident happened in the UK and therefore falls under UK law.

Any "well in the US this wouldn't happen" comments are irrelevant.


There is no such thing as Free Speech.... even in the US.


It comes with responsibilities, limitations.

You can't do and say certain things.

Most people understand this.

Anyway, Have fun with the thread

Originally posted by boymonkey74

Originally posted by Salamandy

Originally posted by TruthWizard

Originally posted by blupblup


Free speech stops when hate speech starts.

No It does not.

edit on 27-3-2012 by TruthWizard because: (no reason given)

Ill second that... NO IT DOES NOT.

I think we are speaking from different countries because in the US, we take the good with the bad in order to keep the cherished idea of free speech alive.

But you still have banned books in the past and in some states you still have banned books so don't tell me you have freedom of speech or the written word.

edit on 27-3-2012 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

I believe that some books were banned in schools (done by moronic parental pressure). I do not however think that you can be brought up on criminal charges for carrying any type of book. That goes for any state of the USA.

Key concept again is the fact that LEGALLY, freedom of speech should mean no crime has occurred as a result of carrying said book/s.

reply to post by Salamandy


BlupBlup is correct we are talking about UK law not US so I don't care if your law is different the OT is about someone in the UK breaking the law and paying for it.
You can bleat all you like saying "freedom of speech" but it doesn't exist on the internet, not on this forum and many other places.
Your ISP can take down pages if asked by the Government.
The only true free speech we have is in our homes.
Going round in circles I bid you all a good night .

I could never agree to a law jailing an individual that posted remarks that did not directly impose danger upon the individual targeted. I could understand worry over people shouting out death threats, blackmail, and other sorts of violent remarks. Hell, even rampant public swearing should probably warrant a good knock to the head once in a while. However, the rule of law must be followed and as such if what he said violated rules established by their society it is out of our hands. This may seem cruel but not all countries view speech the same way.

If the citizens don't like this ruling then they can vote with their minds or, in extreme cases through history, their very lives and remove the individuals responsible for the rules. At the same time, should they fail to remove politicians that due undue harm then they get whats coming to them, be it a police state or not.

There is few if any natural rights granted for free, and I truly believe that unchecked government tends to become more authoritative the longer they go unopposed. In this case, it is perhaps a grey area of being a morally unjust statement deserving ridicule. The real question is should it be the government, or private citizens job to ensure that this individual understands these kinds of remarks won't go unpunished.

My overall point, in summary, is that the people around this man would make sure he understands that what he said was wrong through their own words or outright shunning. The jail time is probably unnecessary though it is not our call to make on a legal level.

nvm

As a Brit, and a "leftie" I think this is completely wrong.

You cannot implement law excessively based solely on public sentiment. If this were any other case the guy would not have been charged, would not have been imprisoned, would not have missed his exams, and would not have been kicked out of University and had his face printed all across the UK.

This is excessive, and the kids life has been permanently damaged because of it.

I agree that what he said was disgusting, but how is it different to all the hundreds of others now tweeting that they hope he is raped in prison? They are expressing support for a violent act, why are they not all being rounded up and charged?

I'll tell you why, because the target is not a footballer, and the outcry about it isn't national.

I also saw another tweet asking why the EDL and BNP have not all been rounded up and imprisoned for their racist rants too. I guess we would have to have thousands of people screaming about it for the law to apply to them too?

You must understand about recent history of the UK - actually England. In the 1980s, racism was rife in football and this had got entangled so much that many England supporters would not show an England flag as this represented Fascist / football hooligans. in the 1990s, football cleaned up its act but when racism creeps back into the game (e.g. John Terry's rascist comment ), there is usually a furious backlash as no-one wants to be reminded or return to those dark days of the 1980s.

Hence the reason why you will not find what was actually said and whether it deserved jail or not - it seemed pretty nasty and in very bad taste (as it seemed to go to the people most affected).

The other interesting issue here is the way that people use twitter as though they are talking to someone in a pub. It is electronic evidence and hence very dangerous.

reply to post by templar knight


It will be fascinating to see how the case of John Terry is treated. I'll bet my left testicle that he doesn't get a single day of imprisonment, that he maybe gets a token fine, and then walks free for it to be forgotten about the following day.

I hope I'm proven wrong, but I think the way his case is dealt with will show that this was solely a judge ignoring common sense and placating the baying mob of knee-jerk loons.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by Salamandy

 

BlupBlup is correct we are talking about UK law not US so I don't care if your law is different the OT is about someone in the UK breaking the law and paying for it.
You can bleat all you like saying "freedom of speech" but it doesn't exist on the internet, not on this forum and many other places.
Your ISP can take down pages if asked by the Government.
The only true free speech we have is in our homes.
Going round in circles I bid you all a good night

.

Yes sir, I agree that private entities can remove a post but when the law gets involved - then it becomes wrong.

I like that term "bleat". Like a sheep or a goat. Funny stuff. I bid you a good night.

Originally posted by templar knight
You must understand about recent history of the UK - actually England. In the 1980s, racism was rife in football and this had got entangled so much that many England supporters would not show an England flag as this represented Fascist / football hooligans. in the 1990s, football cleaned up its act but when racism creeps back into the game (e.g. John Terry's rascist comment ), there is usually a furious backlash as no-one wants to be reminded or return to those dark days of the 1980s.

Hence the reason why you will not find what was actually said and whether it deserved jail or not - it seemed pretty nasty and in very bad taste (as it seemed to go to the people most affected).

The other interesting issue here is the way that people use twitter as though they are talking to someone in a pub. It is electronic evidence and hence very dangerous.

I just find it interesting. The fact that so much time is wasted over words. Childish words too. The law should have no involvement.

When Mike Vic play for Atlanta, I always heard them refferred to as the Atlanta Fal-Coons. Yes its immature and racist but its only words and football. Getting the law involved is such a waste and is not what the legal system is for.

Originally posted by blupblup
*sigh*


This incident happened in the UK and therefore falls under UK law.

Any "well in the US this wouldn't happen" comments are irrelevant.


There is no such thing as Free Speech.... even in the US.


It comes with responsibilities, limitations.

You can't do and say certain things.

Most people understand this.

Anyway, Have fun with the thread

I agree that you cant "do" anything you want. But you sure as hell should be able to "say" whatever you want - even if it is a vile diatribe.

In my opinion it's wrong morally but right legally. It sucks when that happens but it happens. Who among us hasn't said something completely rude/irrational/bigoted at some point in our life?

Tbh, I think some prison would do these fellows some good. However, I was genuinely surprised at how quickly this particular case was pushed through as if to say; you are either with us or against us.

That said, it doesn't mean you should be a complete douchebag to people and think there will be no consequences for your actions.

Originally posted by judus
It still comes down to the fact that he was jailed for something he said.

Right or Wrong.

The thought police will be on to us next

what about slander/libel/defamation laws - are they outdated or unnecessary do you think? Is there a line between freedom of speech and harassment? Is speech directed towards an individual or group different from speech that targets an idea or situation?

Can speech be considered abusive? Is abuse a crime?

Difficult things to prove in court - but harassment is no small thing. Anyone that wants to use the 'sticks and stones' argument is counting on the fact that words leave invisible bruises. No mark - no crime?

Those ugly racist remarks may have been directed by one person towards one person - but the blows actually land on everyone of that race. Even here in America - there's a line between hate speech and free speech. Many think there shouldn't be any lines - but what then?

If he had been standing in a very public place like a mall and shouting the same stuff - would that be OK?

So - how public is Twitter? The internet is where we meet now - times change - things change

Originally posted by Rising Against

Should this man go to jail for racial comments he made on twitter ?

My question in reply... Why not?

A young 23 year old athlete collapsed during a game and actually died for around 2 hours after a cardiac arrest. He somehow was brought back to life and is still struggling to stay alive to this day. During all of this some moron decides to use twitter and abuse him racially.. Why on earth should the abuser not face punishment for his idiotic behavior? Racism is racism, no matter where you do it and it's always wrong and should always face punishment, in my opinion.

It doesn't matter if he's on the streets shouting his nonsense or in the comfort of his bedroom.. he should grow up, learn to live in this century and stop saying stupid stuff about another human being simply because of their skin colour. Or anything else like that for the record. This is 2012 for goodness sake, we should be moving past all that crap already.

This man was jailed for his racism.. I say good. Well done to those responsible for jailing him.

Just my opinion of course and I'm sure I'll get flamed but honestly, I don't see why these kind of questions continue to come up. Why should someone be allowed to say something on the internet where what they're saying is going to reach many people and yet not be allowed to say the same thing on the street where it's also going to reach people? It doesn't make sense to me.

edit on 27-3-2012 by Rising Against because: (no reason given)

Really? Jail sentences for verbal audible sounds??

This is nonsense RA you should know that...Im surprised to see your "this is 2012 for goodness sake" comment, yet you refer back to censoring and illegalizing words...as that is the "evolved and modern thing to do"...

This is all sensitive baby talk that does no one any good. I work with the criminally insane and get called every name in the book every day…it doesn’t bother me one bit…you know why? Because ultimately, I’m in control of how I respond to what they say. Ultimately I am the one who decides how much “power” to give their remarks…I pay them no attention…

Its no wonder with BS like this that the prison population is increasing to the point we can’t maintain them. It’s no wonder “crime is rampant” because what we determine as a “crime” is getting increasingly “absurd”…It’s no wonder our economies are failing to tax their law abiding citizens enough to pay to incarcerate and care for people who committed such a heinous crime as voicing their opinion regardless of how ignorant or stupid it may be.

Honestly I like stupid people being able to say whatever they want without fear of legal recourse, it makes it easier for me spot them and avoid them or treat them appropriately.

If words were illegal it just means all the racists would be speaking under their breath and I would have a hard time identifying them…hell I might even accidentally help a Nazi out in a time of need because he wasn’t displaying his ignorance in full force…

I say let these people identify themselves to be the idiots they are and let society treat them appropriately. I don’t feel like having my tax money pay to incarcerate these fools with 3 hots and a cot for ANY period of time…

People thinking illegalizing words of any kind need to reconsider the implications of doing such a ridiculous thing.

Originally posted by Rising Against
reply to post by judus

 

Just so you know I added a bit more content to my post just before you replied.

A Horrendous incident ? He had a heart attack ( In total, 146000 people have a heart attack every year and 94000 of them die. ... 179 people lose one of their parents every day to a fatal heart attack)

I would hardly call it a horrendous incident.

Yes, and it's still a horrendous incident. As is any heart attack. Obviously.

Bear in mind the person in question here was only 23 years old as well. So yeah, I do stand by what I said.

My point is that due to him been a footballer the man has been jailed for racial comments. If he was not a footballer and just a average joe would the man have been jailed ?

Yes he still would have been jailed. But I see what you're saying still. Because Fabrice is famous and is a footballer the abuser has received much more attention for his comments. In fact I don't think I, or anyone else for that matter, said otherwise. And of course that's not fair to everyone else, again no one said otherwise there. But so what. This is a racist and he's facing punishment for his racist comments and we're shining a spotlight on him and what he's done.. how you, or anyone else, can defend him is beyond me. The fact he's facing punishment is a great thing. I hope this incident causes us to look closer at other incidents going on and put a stop to them - Like I said before, there's no room for such hatred in our world in my opinion.

You should know though, if anyone's ever being racist, whether it be face to face or through any social network out there, they can still be punished by the law if the incident is reported. It may not get all that much publicity, but people will still face punishment for it.

really speech police,where is the line drawn at what can be said and what cant be said? What about misinterpretations of what people say, do they require jail time too? I dont think your fit to use that avatar and I'm irish American so i find your use of his avatar racially insensitive you should pay a fine to me right? How about you grow up being a big boy means not everyone is going to be nice 100% of the time.

Originally posted by neformore
I think that anyone who is stupid enough to make racially motivated abohrrent comments on a public forum deserves everything they get.

Freedom of speech is not freedom to hate.

Actually freedom of speech is freedom to hate...(verbally anyway). There are laws already in place that address the "hate" issue when it becomes a real issue such as harassment, assault etc...

Any censorship of speech whether it be hate or ignorance or whatever = NOT FREE SPEECH

Since "hate" is relative...(I hate potatoes, you may love them...) LAWS have NO PLACE regulating such things. Its absurd and if you can't acknowledge it as such, maybe you will one day when some oversenstive person takes something you said as "hate" speech that lands you in jail with a nothing but a foot in your mouth.

LAWS have a place and there is a clear (or at least was) line at which point LAWS can be of use.

I know people may not like it in thier dreamworld utopian law laden candy land but freedom of speech = freedom to verbally say whatever you want up until it crosses the line as harrassment.

Wrong.

I can't quit thinking the people in GB are lost.

if you revengeful people have to have something done to him fine him, dont put him in jail. you put him in jail, he loses his job and he gets to hang around criminals. what a good mix. the people trying to punish society into being peaceful are the people pushing it further and further into #. better to be like christ and forgive. but christ is only there to help most to sleep at night. not to liberate them

This is dumb. No one should be arrested for speech. Why would anyone support censorship? Say what is on your mind. Better to get it out there so someone could debate and possibly change your mind. Worst case scenario, you say the wrong thing in front of a very "hot tempered" person and a fight breaks out. Like we say in da dirty south "There ain't nothin' an a** whippin' can't cure".