There can be no Good without Evil

Many atheists often spout such lines and thus their reasoning that there can be no supreme being, for if there is, He would not have created evil. It is and should be fully comprehensible to those of religious faith, for atheists see, read and only had not comprehended divine messages.

Atheists, too, are our fellow human brothers and sisters, not lesser humans. Their time for acknowledgement of our Creator will come, but not in yours or my time, but in His time.

For those of religious faith, we know that humans were never created to be mere robots, but thinking species to tend the gardens of our Creator. After the fall from Eden, in His compassion, He gave mankind free will along witht he gift of life.

However, He understood the power of free will, which are choices. Robots have no free will, are one track minded and will follow programmes faithfully, even if there were a programming errors, to continue making mistakes, and are fully incapable of correcting themselves nor able to solve multiple simple issues, let alone complex issues of civilisation.

Robots have their limitations and thus mankind were never created as such, but as thinking species to make wise choices with their free will.

With choices come both good and bad decisions that will ultimately affect all mankind and its destiny. Our Creator is aware of such and had allowed bad choices, but under containment by Him so that it does not goes out of control. He understood that we as a species can only learn from mistakes, by banging our heads upon walls, even if the best divine tutors are sent, because we all have free will to choose.

And only by suffering from bad choices, can one and entire societies learn from it, to correct them, and return to the path. Evil had been allowed to win battles, for it serves an evolutionary purpose, but had NEVER been allowed to win the war. Evil had never truimp over Good in the long run.

Some chosed to do Evil with their choices. Many had never gotten away doing evil, while some gets untouched in their lifetime. But ultimately, retribution comes, at times, through the next generations.

Example:- Bernie Madoff had done evil to others. He scammed and cheated billions off both selfish rich and the hardworking workers savings. In the end, his evil was brought to Light. Today, he pays in retribution, under just and humane secular laws. His next generation - one of his sons, hanged himself for the shame, even though none, not even our compassionate Creator, sought for it.

Catholicism from the 3rd to 16th Century had saw the murders, denial of knowledge and enslavement of mankind, and it had to change when the western world faithfuls rose up.

Radical beliefs such as fanatical Islamization had seen billions of religious muslim faithful denouncing murders done in the name of peaceful religions. I can list more, but many would see the point at this stage.

Therefore, when one considers doing evil to others, may they pause to think. It will never work out. Not in the long run for oneself and one's future generations or loved ones. Evil is a created dragnet, to ensure mankind knows the sufferings and pains that can come with doing it so as to correct that course, improve and evolutionise.

It is created door that free will can open, for one to sink to the nose level in it, but at the same it, it is a door that one can climb out of it, if they acknowledge those choices, pay for it with remorse and seek for redemption. If one continues into that pit and refuses to come out of it, pain, suffering and doom only awaits. Evil does not truimph in the long run.

Yeah ... its pretty simple. There is no good or evil. Just societies rules put in place for order and advancement.

agreed. one cannot be without the other. how would we even know what a shadow looks like if it weren't surrounded by light???

I don't disagree with you, but you have to be careful when you make the equivalency that "choices" = "free will". This seems trivial at first, but those same atheists who stubbornly deny the existence of a Creator will pounce on this like a lion stalking prey.

If you equate choices with free will, a logical consequence of this identity is "I can choose either A or B, therefore I have free will". This is false and also a devastating flaw in the argument that leaves you vulnerable to those logical positivists and materialists that want nothing more than to ridicule those who believe in a Creator. This can also be used as a cop out for people who want to absolve themselves of moral obligations. If I were to restrict all of your choices, would you then lose your Free Will? I do not think this is the case, but if you are to equate choice with free will, that is what you must also accept.

"Choices" in the material world are an illusion and control mechanisms so that those currently in power on Earth use to keep us from realizing our true potential Free Will is exercised spiritually/psychologically and has nothing to do with choices in this material realm.

But you are thinking about these things, and that is the important part. Free Will is one the reasons we exist, so keep thinking about these things, as not many people do or are willing to.

reply to post by underduck


Agreed. What is considered "evil" is a result of cultural conditioning. What is "good" for one or some is almost always "evil" for another even if you can't see it.

Also your avatar looks like Satan's penis =)

got to be more careful about this. we cant be making metaphysical claims and then ground them on experience. you have given an argument such that it would resemble a ying-yang. Good being only perceivable with evil, a harmonious existence. When you say that God is all good, it shouldn't follow that evil, therefore exists. An all good God, could be said to never create/allow evil. An all good God would say when we ram our head into a wall, provide sensations like those of ultimately happiness. An all good God would necessarily be circle of gray representing good, rather than black and white corresponding to good and evil. God would abide by no rules of causation(which we simply perceive) to allow evil. When you say God is ALL GOOD, thats it, it would be such that God is never not good(or simply, allow evil). Its also imperative to note that not allowing evil doesn't by some way hinder our free will.

If God can create the day and night cycle BEFORE he created the sun surely he can create a universe without evil? I thought God was infinitely powerful?

reply to post by Firepac


This is a typical straw man argument that attacks Religions and their narrow definition of the divine. You pre-textually define "God" with logical flaws and then attack those flaws and smugly deny the existence of the divine because the definition is weak. Essentially you have just punched a mannequin and think you have done something spectacular because it didn't fight back.

This little quip is along the lines of "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot move it", which is just an adolescent argument that is flawed because of the assumptions you are making.

There can be no Good without Evil...in a universe based on duality.

Originally posted by mirrormaker326
reply to post by Firepac

 

This is a typical straw man argument that attacks Religions and their narrow definition of the divine. You pre-textually define "God" with logical flaws and then attack those flaws and smugly deny the existence of the divine because the definition is weak. Essentially you have just punched a mannequin and think you have done something spectacular because it didn't fight back.

This little quip is along the lines of "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot move it", which is just an adolescent argument that is flawed because of the assumptions you are making.

I "pre-texturally" defined God? ROFLMAO HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Excuuuuuuse me but it is the religious nutters who are always claiming that their god has unlimited/infinite powers so please get your facts straight.

And the question "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot move it" is something that perfectly demonstrates the stupidity of the idea of an "infintely powerful" being. This is something that your fellow nutjobs cannot handle.

The problem with free will is that there is absolutely no evidence anywhere to suggest it exists or even is necessary to enable to allow people to make choices. The brain is what makes those decisions, not a magical force that allows you to make them. Personally, I believe the concept of free will as referenced in the bible actually refers to freedom from slavery in the distant past where the majority of people were enslaved.

But as far as the original argument, I've never seen an "atheist" or skeptic claim that good can't exist without evil. The argument that I have heard refers to the bad things in the world and why they are there if created by a benevolent creator. Personally, I feel if god exists he's not the guy from the bible, and does not interfere with creation. But that's a big if.

reply to post by Barcs


There is a difference between "Free will" and "Freedom". If I were tied to a the floor with restraints, my freedom would be gone, however, physical bondage does not restrict "Free Will". Slaves had their freedom denied, but not their free will.

reply to post by Firepac


Here is another logical fallacy, its called "ad hominem". That is when you cannot defend yourself philosophically, so you resort to attacking the person. I don't really fell attacked, because you completely misunderstood what I am trying to relay. That is not your fault, I'm sorry the nuances of philosophy are not accessible to you. However, before you call someone a "nutter" for believing in God, you should probably think about what your are saying and not regurgitate Richard Dawkins.

reply to post by Barcs


Let's put free will to the test.

You can reply, or not to reply to my post to you.

Is this free will, or an act of consciousness from your mind? If it is consciousness as you presume, then what are the facts that support consciousness acting on its own, for you implied that it is a neurological response to environment, something akin to a computer, but yet, I had never seen my computer acting on its own intelligently to respond on forums, let alone turning itself 'on'.?

I do agree to a certain extent on your right to believe that the Creator may not be that who is portrayed in the Bible. Religion and religious beliefs are personal issues, and is best kept within one's privacy unless one wishes to share it, as is a right too that governs our progress from slavery and serfdom.

However, much of the bible, as well as majority's mainstream religion, had taught mankind much of civilisational ways. Much of what you see - the bad - happening in our world today, are only a reflection of paths that had diverged from such teachings by the selfish some amongst the ruling economic - socio - political leaders worldwide.

Perhaps, you may wonder and even ponder, in your free time and free will, on WHO have taught such civilisation guidelines to mankind whom we humanity had ignored time and time again.

I seriously doubt if cavemen could even comprehend the 10 commandments if left alone on their own, with their barbaric way of life using one simple jungle law where only the fittest survive, let alone them avoiding immediate extinction. I had never seen monkeys building towers, healing their sick such as diabetes or taking care of their aged, whom were often left to die by being food to other predetors.

Originally posted by mirrormaker326
reply to post by Barcs

 

There is a difference between "Free will" and "Freedom". If I were tied to a the floor with restraints, my freedom would be gone, however, physical bondage does not restrict "Free Will". Slaves had their freedom denied, but not their free will.

Define "free-will" and then define an experiment that can be conducted to prove its existence. Sorry but "it said so in the Bible" will not be accepted here.

Originally posted by mirrormaker326
reply to post by Firepac

 

Here is another logical fallacy, its called "ad hominem". That is when you cannot defend yourself philosophically, so you resort to attacking the person. I don't really fell attacked, because you completely misunderstood what I am trying to relay. That is not your fault, I'm sorry the nuances of philosophy are not accessible to you. However, before you call someone a "nutter" for believing in God, you should probably think about what your are saying and not regurgitate Richard Dawkins.

How about you actually answer my questions instead of dancing around it with accusations? Please explain why an infintely powerful God can't create a Universe with good but without evil? I know it doesn't make any sense but God does plenty of things that don't make sense so that shouldn't stop him. So please do enlighten me on what it is that I'm misunderstanding.

Originally posted by mirrormaker326
reply to post by Firepac

 

This little quip is along the lines of "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot move it", which is just an adolescent argument that is flawed because of the assumptions you are making.

While I agree with the premise of the rest of what you said, his quip ISN'T along those same lines.

The "Rock so big he can't move it" has always been and always will be an analogy for free will.

Originally posted by Violets
agreed. one cannot be without the other. how would we even know what a shadow looks like if it weren't surrounded by light???

By logicly understanding ego and devine. Not all people/souls need practical examples to understand but it can help. To say bad is needed for good is to accept nonevolution of the whole and become stagnant. It is from my point of view the viewpoint of laziness of not wanting to do the work to evolve. I myself is not the fastest evolver but I am at least moving.

I am at work right now, so I have to be brief, but if you can find anywhere on this site that I've used the bible as my foundation for the existence of anything, let me know, because I haven't used it to support anything I've said. I am not a christian or a jew (those two groups being the main proponents of the Bible), and I am not basing my belief in the divine on any religious text, but that seems to be the only thing you are capable of arguing against. I say the the Divine exists, and you tell me that I am wrong by attacking religions that I don't subscribe to.

reply to post by graphuto


How is this related to Free Will? The God Making A Rock... is meant to try and desiccate the idea of omnipotence, not to demonstrate free will.

reply to post by mirrormaker326


What are you talking about? Just google the phrase, you'll see a myriad of things verifying what I said.