Eliminate Income Tax... Instate 25% National Sales Tax. Problem Solved!

reply to post by Aqualung2012

If our government utilized our tax money honestly and efficiently then that would not be true... I suppose my thread should be written "Eliminate Income Tax... Instate 25% National Sales Tax (and elect a completely honest and responsible government). Problem Solved!

Aint that the truth!

The Human Condition however prohibits an honest government from ever existing.

reply to post by nunya13


Supporters of a national Sales Tax support it because a Progressive Tax is highly unfair. You punish people with higher taxes for making more money.. you reward those making little money with no taxes.. yet the vast majority of services are consumed by those that pay ...... no taxes.

Hence why the sales tax is also called the: FAIR TAX

That way when billy bob and shaniqua use their food stamps, subsidized housing, free health care etc .. and then buy their Xbox for their HD 3D Plasma TV ... they pay their freaking taxes as opposed to an additional massive pay day on tax day for all the little brats they spawned.

reply to post by scoobdude


No scoob... they can enjoy those luxuries, but they won't be buying them on the People's dime. Welfare is saying "help me..." not "pay me."

You see the difference? In your case, why not let people buy big screen TV's with their food stamps?
If you need help, the great people of our country should help you... if you want something, you have to earn it.

reply to post by Dbriefed

The problem is that the cost of living goes up, and those who have disposable incomes save more. Then you have the same 'rich get richer' problem that the non-rich complain about. What if government just spent less, and cut 25% of their redundant bureaucracies?

Yes, I agree, and thus hurts the economy, while benefiting the Government. A sales tax would ultimately lead to higher revenue, which we all know translates into an even larger Federal Government.

Here's my take:

Outside of the military and interstate infrastructure .. I see absolutely nothing the Federal Government does to benefit me. I get no Federal services, no Federal benefits, no Federal pension, I expect absolutely no Federal SS, Medicare or Medicaid.

My state, that I pay an obscene amount of taxes in as well, provides ALL of the services the Federal Government provides minus the Social Security.

So, outside of those leaching the system, why do we actually need this massive government when we have a redundant government system underneath it? We don't! Our Federal system shouldn't require more than $500b a year to fully operate .. get rid of the Social programs and transition into fully state funded programs.. shrink the size of the military, reduce the ABC agencies since they are all grossly redundant, and bam .. government issue solved, Federal taxes can go way, way, way down, state taxes will probably go up, but since we don't have a massive federal infrastructure to support our dollars go further.

Otherwise we are doomed to be swallowed by the Federal System.. it will never stop growing on it's own, and will only get more expensive to maintain..

reply to post by Rockpuck

The Human Condition however prohibits an honest government from ever existing.

Come on Rockpuck, I am always told that if the government just regulates more, that if we give them more power, we will have a utopia on earth!

reply to post by Rockpuck


I appreciate your take.

Focus on state gov't... empower State gov't, and shrink the Fed.

reply to post by Rockpuck


No progressive taxation whatsoever.

My idea on the fair tax was to eliminate any and all taxation on rental property, unprepared food, health care, and clothes under a certain monetary amount. Those are the things that are the highest costs to the poor. But if the poor are not required to pay, neither should anyone else.

Incentivizing is what I call it. Make people want to make more money. Make their life more comfortable but they can live if they do not want to exert themselves.

So if I do not buy anything, I pay no federal taxes. I can make as much as I want, but if I do not spend it, I pay nothing but state and local property taxes... sounds good to a degree.

But what happens when people stop buying stuff... I am pretty resourceful and tight with my money now. What happens to all of the people that lose their jobs because no one is buying stuff... they then go on government services taking money from programs that, because of decreased sales taxes, have no money coming in.

Do we increase the sales tax to increase and make up revenues? Do we create extra taxes? Does it spiral out of control?

reply to post by AlreadyGone


There is always Christmas, birthdays, random acts of kindness, better Halloween costumes, better Halloween CANDY...

People still want their nice phones, sharp duds, nice cars, etc etc... and if there were no income tax, people COULD make as much as they wanted (or could) and save it all for what they want.

It's like saying: Proceeds on everything you buy for yourself or others will go to charity... the charity which is the US population.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


Where I grew up the sales tax was 9.5%
Where I live now the sales tax is 8.5%

I've never not bought something because of a sales tax. I've met people that freak out (like my wife, who to this day bitches about the sales tax) about sales taxes if they come from the rare state that doesn't have one.. but they still buy.

So if you're middle class.. and all of a sudden the Government stops stealing 30% or more of your pay check, are you suddenly going to freak out and not buy anything because there is a new national sales tax?

No.

Unless you're really freaking weird .. but you'll be in the minority. I'm sure there will be some people living like trolls in a cave on a mound of cash petrified of buying anything less the Fed get their quarter cut .. but those are usually the same people that are disconnected from the system already.

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by Aqualung2012

 

Short version...a flat national sales ax is inherantly flawed as it adversely affects consumers the less money they make.

The math:

Person A and Person B each purchase a $100 printer

Person a makes $200 a day
Person B makes $100 a day

They each pay $25 intaxes on the printer.

This is 12.5% of person A's income for that day
It is 25% of person B's income for that day

Lower income people also spend a larger portion of their income on taxble sales items, which compounds the problem.

But you're working under the assumption that the spending habits betwee the two types would be identical.

They are not.

reply to post by Aqualung2012


Your friend regurgitated an idea that is at least 100 years old. Anyway, it is a great one, but 25% is much too high. More like 5 - 10%

Originally posted by Aqualung2012
reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

 

All absolutely correct. Note: I did not specify how simple this would be to implement. We all understand that government is a self serving establishment. I have a comment above which relates to this point.

These people you've mentioned... they need a problem to exist, or else they're out of a job! I understand this as well as the next man. However, if there is any hope for us... I believe it has to be through simplifying our goals (as a people) so that if we are ever actually in the position to decide for ourselves again, we won't be subject to the typical in-fighting which has allowed us to be so duped and confounded as we are.

It is not so simple, to be sure... but isn't that our problem?

edit on 3-3-2012 by Aqualung2012 because: (no reason given)

Finally, someone is getting to the core of the problem. Everyone wants an easy fix, but they don't want that fix to affect them directly or indirectly. This just isn't going to happen. Whatever revamping gets done to the system to "set it right" is going to hurt. It's going to be painful. And some are going to feel it more than others. We've come way too far for an easy fix now folks.

The sales tax is, and always has been a good solution. However, until we put government in its constitutional place, and proper perspective in our society, even a sales tax system will get abused beyond measure.

There was a time in this country when the president actually answered the phone at the White House, because he wasn't allotted a staff to do it for him. This is the direction we should be heading.

Our governments place is to make sure the American peoples rights are not trampled on, and that we remain a self governing society, with the goal of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

You don't have to leave ATS to find out exactly what is troubling America. The fact that anyone thinks this is a good idea is extremely dissapointing and evidence of the lack of knowledge in our society. It would virtually destroy our economy.

We need to eliminate income taxation and print our own debt free money to operate. Government expenditures would be directly tied to the nation's productivity, thus limiting any negative effects of inflation.

If we still need taxation after that, simply throw a tax on accumulated wealth above say $2 million.

According to the latest figures, 49.5% do not pay any federal taxes. If a fair tax system were employed that would take care of that problem, because everyone buys stuff, and so everyone would pay taxes. If half do not pay now, then it would be easy to cut taxes in half if everyone paid.

when you ,OP, say "eliminate income tax

to which law exactly are you referring?

please quote the law so i know what you are talking about


im european but nevertheless would like to join the discussion

reply to post by Aqualung2012


I deem your response appropriate. Please continue.

reply to post by Aqualung2012

Point is: Eliminate income tax, and create a 25% National Sales Tax

So if I buy a home or a car at half a million dollars....at 25% sales tax I would have to pay 125,000 dollars to the government just so I could buy that item. Doesn't make sense.

25% is way too high. when you buy a car for $40,000 it will now cost $50,000 plus local taxes.

A better type of sales tax would be federal sales tax on all internet sales. All transaction originating or ending in the US are tagged with a sliding scale, starting at a penny and working up to a cap of $10 or something. It would have very little impact on the sale price and, given the fact that most online items are less expensive than store bought versions, the consumer should still be getting a break.

There are a variety of ways that people avoid paying sales tax and they will continue to do the same thing with a federal sales tax so why not make it small, make it harder to avoid (no cash deals on the internet) and easier to implement (tell online vendors it must be included in their shopping carts). The windfall of cash would eradicate many of our problems.

Simply eliminating the income tax would be enough. Income tax goes towards paying off a national debt that will never be paid off, so why bother trying so hard.

If the income tax was eliminated there would be an explosion of consumer activity. Taxing individuals on the sweat of their labour only retards the individual and doesn't even put a dent in the national debt.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Yes... I am "really freaking weird." I buy when I have to, but not very often... and getting better and better at "yard saling" and making something from nothing... like nice furniture from wooden packing crates and pallets. I already contribute to charities and the needy, I don't really consider the government a charity.