The Lie about the DOW JONES

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Compare the price of the dow to gold in 2008 vs dow to gold in 2012. Is it really above 13,000? Hmm makes you think:

That's not an accurate way to make comparisons, as the two are not related.

Gold is a hard commodity, the price determined by it's value compared to the value of a currency.

Publicly traded stocks are not a commodity. For investors, the prices are determined by those betting on the success or failure of each company. For speculators, small fluctuations in price are exploited for short term gain.

Perhaps overly simplistic, but you get the idea.


Some better comparative data can be found here:
Gold Market Price vs. Dow Jones Index
and here
Here’s that Gold-Versus-the-Dow Chart You Wanted
In short, this type of cycle has been happening a lot. And when the DOW outperforms gold by a wide margin, historically that means those playing the market are speculating on economic improvements.

edit on 29-2-2012 by SkepticOverlord because: added link

Yes and housing was an investment for a families future once too
same with education and student loans for degrees that don't mean much today as compared to 2003 when banks would give anyone a home loan car loan and a student loan.
Gold in 2003 cost $300> an ounce that was less then or equal to an ounce of marijuana
Knowing this where would you have put your money for long term protection of assets
housing went bust taking most of middle America's 401ks with it
the euro is about to kick the bucket
The dollar is off its bi polar medication
(good for exports/bad for anyone dollars as an income and assets like pesos where in 1993-1994)
Japan has more problems then everyone on this forme has fingers and toes combined
If gold wasn't isn't and/or was maybe still is the best and safest place for a persons wealth over the last decade then I would love to hear where was because if the Dow and current gold trading rate aren't directly tied to each other
They are without a doubt indirectly representive of the current stability of overall wealth and health of the global economy.

When you play in the casino, you have to expect the odds to favor the house.

Markets keep going up because they are cheap. They will keep going up uness we get another shock to the system. The time to sell is when you look back and realize that the markets have deivered what they were suppose to over the years. That will probably be the same time every gives up on gold as well.

reply to post by Maxmars


The DOW is starting to tip again today. Oil prices are going down.
Once it hits a certain level of oil price, it starts to rebound.

Up and dow, up and dow. That's how it goes.

reply to post by Maxmars


The DOW is starting to tip again today. Oil prices are going down.
Once it hits a certain level of oil price, it starts to rebound.

Up and dow, up and dow. That's how it goes.

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


It's called inflation.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Compare the price of the dow to gold in 2008 vs dow to gold in 2012. Is it really above 13,000? Hmm makes you think:

That's not an accurate way to make comparisons, as the two are not related.

Gold is a hard commodity, the price determined by it's value compared to the value of a currency.

Publicly traded stocks are not a commodity. For investors, the prices are determined by those betting on the success or failure of each company. For speculators, small fluctuations in price are exploited for short term gain.

Perhaps overly simplistic, but you get the idea.


Some better comparative data can be found here:
Gold Market Price vs. Dow Jones Index
and here
Here’s that Gold-Versus-the-Dow Chart You Wanted


In short, this type of cycle has been happening a lot. And when the DOW outperforms gold by a wide margin, historically that means those playing the market are speculating on economic improvements.

edit on 29-2-2012 by SkepticOverlord because: added link

Respectfully, I find you post rather disturbing. You are telling us to trust the very same metrics and formulas that were responsible for the fall in late 2008? There are some here that know more than remedial math, and several orthogonal functions can be applied to current values to clearly see the nature of the Dow's inaccurate value.

Even if this were not the case, you said the value of hard commodities is related to the value of a currency. If this is indeed the case, then perhaps the value of the dollar is not as publicly indicated(which, using the same functions as stated above- it is not).

There are many of us in the world who see the deception currently taking place- we simply do not go out and advertise it. If people cannot figure things out for themselves from time to time, how can they be expected to survive having everything handed to them?

Originally posted by Maxmars
When you play in the casino, you have to expect the odds to favor the house.

That's why you want to play as the banker in a California Card Room
And why I hate, no wait loathe California Blackjack ; the banker plus automatic shuffle machines but particularly the F en banker cause the dealer or the house can bust but the bank can still beat you dirty rats

But life is like gambling only it's informal gambling but a choice is still a choice right wrong or doesn't matter outcomes still ending up the same that why Doyle says put your opposition to the decision in his book super systems

But don't take my word for it I quote "America's Mad Genius" Mike Caro

Suddenly you're awake. But where are you? Everywhere you look there's white. White walls hug and confine you, stretching deeper and deeper, marking the boundaries of a straight, narrow, featureless hallway. You're bewildered, but who wouldn't be? Finally you stand and look behind you. All white, everything, going back to where it all vanishes. You push against the hard white floor, swaying and almost losing your balance because you've been asleep so long. Looking ahead, you realize the hallway is not exactly like it was behind you. Almost the same, but not quite. Way, way in the distance you can see some specks. And, reasoning that specks are better than nothing, you begin walking toward them. It takes a long time, but then the specks grow and define themselves. They have become signs, gold in color and arrow-shaped. They hang at the end of the hallway, and you can see lettering on them. Closer and closer you walk, until you can see that there's a second hallway perpendicular to the this one. One arrow points left and reads: "Casino." The other points right and reads: "Life." It's decisions like this that make you cry out for your mommy. Let me help. Turn right toward the real world, and I'll give you some advice as you're walking. In the future I'll provide plenty of strategy for winning at formal gambling, including some tips that will help you fare better inside the casino. But there's something you have to understand today. Gambling games are merely formalized, simplified ways of experiencing exactly the same risks we experience in everyday life. If you're alive--as most of my readers are--you gamble. Formally or informally, you gamble.

Great comparison.

I've watched the markets and the economy since I was a kid Pa insisted on it.
I never made that connection though.

I wonder though is it really saying the DOW index is worth much less then they are saying or is it more indicative of inflation.

I think the comparison goes a long way to pointing out a more true inflation level than actually saying there is a problem with the DOW index and we are being lied to.

I believe we are being lied to I just think it's more complex than just the true values of stocks.

Everyone in this thread should give me 20 dollars.

If I do well I'll pay you 1 cent a quarter. If I fail, you will lose your investment.

As crazy as this seems, this is the reality of the stock market.

This is the worst casino around and its legal.

reply to post by St Udio

the flash trading that takes place does not require the transfer of funds... and these flash traders can move a market with the trading of hundreds of million shares (naked trading) in seconds...

While I don’t agree with the concept of flash trading, I don’t believe they ‘move’ the market. Their whole premise is to catch a penny or two in a very short period on companies that have a tremendous amount of outstanding shares. It does not work with 99% of the stocks out there. At best they might move one or two stocks for a few minutes but the price will still revolve around the true value of the stock.

just like JPM & their alleged hold on Silver Futures to the tune of some 500 million ounces when the records show only 300 million oz. are in the physical market on a daily basis...

It’s not unusual to trade more futures than exist physically at a point in time. That’s why they are called ‘futures’. You are buying something that doesn’t exist yet.
What’s wrong with buying July corn from an Ohio farmer today because I believe Kansas will be flooded in July?
Were you complaining three years ago when Southwest airlines held the line on ticket prices because they had bought fuel futures several years ahead? All the other airlines were screaming about how hard the prices increase was hitting them.

You can complain all you want about crooked markets. But as long as you let someone else manage your money you will never get anywhere. I took me decades to figure this one out. This is one of the many things I am teaching my college kids.

Stay out of mutual funds whenever you can. The manager takes the credit when times are good and blame the market when times are bad. Either way they get their percentage. Either way they get paid more money than you or I do in a decade.

Originally posted by Pigraphia
Great comparison.

I've watched the markets and the economy since I was a kid Pa insisted on it.
I never made that connection though.

I wonder though is it really saying the DOW index is worth much less then they are saying or is it more indicative of inflation.

I think the comparison goes a long way to pointing out a more true inflation level than actually saying there is a problem with the DOW index and we are being lied to.

I believe we are being lied to I just think it's more complex than just the true values of stocks.

yes but not exactly
you see these are the effects of currency manipulation due to the global practice of unorthodox economics which has become a system that is both systemic and self staining as well as amplified because of globalizations transformation of capitalism into what Robert Reich termed as "Supercapitalism" in his book of the same name

It argued that turbo-charged corperate competition fueled by consumers and investors seeking the best deal is generating great social problems.
And that this could be best remedied by refocusing corporations away from politics and back to making better products.
We all know how that's turning out.

reply to post by IblisLucifer


I think it might be more than just the directions of the corporations.

Isolationist economies eventually crumble without several things, new land, more people(workers and consumers), and raw material.
The cure to this used to be open up trade with other countries and both countries would prosper.

I think we might be reaching a point due to globalization where the world as a whole is an isolated economy.
There are no more new trade partners or huge unknown natural resources to tap.
We are simply reaching the peak potential of the global economy.

It's happened before to individual countries when they practice isolationism, this is just on a larger scale.

Just my take on how the global economy is going.

The DOW is sinking this week. Gold and Oil are going with it, which is a good thing really.

Originally posted by badconduct
The DOW is sinking this week. Gold and Oil are going with it, which is a good thing really.

as it should be i mean hey they can only sling the chit for so long. the BDI is down 41.9 % in the last year and down 55.01% year to date. recession over my arse.

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle

Originally posted by badconduct
The DOW is sinking this week. Gold and Oil are going with it, which is a good thing really.

as it should be i mean hey they can only sling the chit for so long. the BDI is down 41.9 % in the last year and down 55.01% year to date. recession over my arse.

It's like they are tossing piles of printed money into the bonfire to keep it big and bright until they run out.

Oil going down is good though, keeps more purchase power in the hands of the public. Might be time to move into physical metals.

reply to post by badconduct


you're right that's exactly what they're doing. oil has been going down, but not as fast as the value of the dollar, thanks to bernanki and friends.

reply to post by badconduct


I'm glad gold is going down.
Honestly I don't know why anyone would buy a commodity when it's been rising for more than 3 months.

If a commodity is cyclic as gold is, buy just as it starts to tick up, and sell just as it starts to tick down.

Buying close to the peak on the way up or close to the trough on the way down will cost so much money.

Everyone who falls for the buy gold now deserves the losses they will take when the economy improves.

Gold should be bought in a good economy and sold in a bad economy not the other way around.

reply to post by Pigraphia


Protection from inflation. I have actually been buying silver at the $33 mark.

reply to post by badconduct
you should have waited to buy for everything is down the dow is down gold silver down, could this be the start of the big fall? www.monex.com... from news source yahoo

Dow Jones Industrial Average (^DJI)
-DJI

12,759.76 Down 203.05(1.57%) 3:53PM EST

ouch that hurts