Dealing with looters in a SHTF scenario?

I've spent a couple of hours reading and watching videos on the web. Here's what I have picked up:

What we call riots are political events, usually coalescing around police brutality. This covers the French riots of 2005, the London riots last year, the Los Angeles riots in 1992. Periods of rioting last between 5 and 20 days. Most of the violence seems to peak around day 9, if the problems go on that long.

In all modern riots I could read up on (including the "Arab Spring," ) media helped frame the single issue that intensified the rioting. This was partly so they could report the riots in a sensationalistic vein (if it bleeds it leads). In fact the US "occupy" movement never really found a single issue (even during instances of police brutality) and so never reached the "tipping point" that actual riots do.


Looting is a related issue, but distinct from rioting itself. We can divide it into 3 categories:

-vandalism to express rage. This seems to happen almost exclusively in urban centers (bus depots, shopping districts, police headquarters). The crowd is trying to start fires, break things, and generally create a spectacle and punish someone else.

-looting itself, taking things of value because there appear to be no consequences

-scavenging. Looking for necessities someone else isn't using at the moment. Since the goal is to enhance survival, it tends to be completely non-violent. Scavengers in L.A., Katrina and Hugo stopped when challenged by authority figures, and asked what they could take without "doing wrong."


Stuff I noticed:

1. Almost all vandalism and looting takes place in retail centers like a strip mall, shopping center, or big box retail at major intersection or confluence of foot traffic. In the US this looks like "corner pharmacy, inc." and "wally world" outlets located on the corner of major streets, but always where a crowd can approach on foot at congregate while the work up the courage to break the law. There are a lot of people looking away from the target, to see who is watching.

2. Criminals are loathe to climb through an entry into a building. Crowds stand around to see who is watching, while the bravest experiments with actually violating the law, pretending to almost do it, then looking to see of the camera crew or police will stop them.

3. While vandalism/looting require large crowds, scavenging is a much more solitary activity, unless the goods are abandoned in plain view, and of low value. The people filmed are furtive about it, yet try to be nonchalant when they see a camera, usually explaining what they are doing, i.e., "this is food for my dogs" or "the kids need milk; send us help please."

4. Looking at footage from Katrina and the L.A. riots, I picked up this critical tidbit:

When detering looters, a team with 1 gun is a more powerful deterent than an individual with 1 gun.

Let me explain that. In the LA riots, there is footage of a lone (Korean) shopkeeper, firing repeatedly from his parking lot, while the rioters circle around the perimeter of his block.

In contrast, there is another video of a number of people (the Korean shopkeeper's family, no doubt.) They only have 2 deer rifles and a shotgun, with about 10 people total. The groups completely deterred motorists from even coming down the street where the groups were standing on the roof. The men stand with one armed fellow, wearing the gun slung over his shoulder, so his profile indicates he is armed with a long gun. Two or even three men stand beside him, maybe holding binoculars, but looking around and talking and pointing.

If you have 2 guns, between you and a spouse, then get 4 friends or even just neighbors. hold 1 gun, and have 2 "helpers" stand with you, with binoculars, or at least a camera or cellphone for psychological impact. I think what this does is create the impression that the entire group is armed, even when this is not the case.

Looters did not even present themselves to the groups organized this way, and left quickly when they came around the corner and saw a "fire team." I cannot find footage of this from Katrina, but remember seeing a similar thing there.

Lesson learned: having people organized into obvious teams makes you look organized and in charge, and much less likely to be challenged.

all the best.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


L.A. riots, individual store-owner shootists:




Video starts at 1:14 of teams on a retail rooftop. Media voice-over says "every man on that roof is clearly armed" which is obviously not the case. Then commentator adds, "and thus far, there doesn't seem to be any... looting or burning....at least right where they are...."

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


Interesting analysis, though like I said in my earlier post on this thread, I think comparing rioters to looters in an SHTF scenario is a logical fallacy and ludicrous, there will be a huge difference in the later situation, starvation. The rioters were not starving, they were not looting grocery stores for food and basic supplies, they mostly were stealing electronics and clothing. The funny thing about starvation, it makes people do desperate and illogical things. It can make a large group of unarmed people run towards, a small group of armed people, overrun them and take their stuff. And if you think that can't happen I suggest you go read about the farmers in china who armed only with farm tools ran against and overran a unit of Chinese soldiers with automatic weapons and kicked their rear.

Starving people are far more dangerous, then selfish well fed looters only taking the opportunity to steal luxury items; like expensive clothing and electronics, which is what you mostly see in all the modern riots you show.

Originally posted by prisoneronashipoffools

I think comparing rioters to looters in an SHTF scenario is a logical fallacy and ludicrous, there will be a huge difference in the later situation, starvation..... It can make a large group of unarmed people run towards, a small group of armed people, overrun them and take their stuff. And if you think that can't happen I suggest you go read about the farmers in china who armed only with farm tools ran against and overran a unit of Chinese soldiers with automatic weapons and kicked their rear.

Chinese history is 5000 years long, and filled with actions by farmers; can you provide any specifics?

Starving people are far more dangerous, then selfish well fed looters only taking the opportunity to steal luxury items; like expensive clothing and electronics, which is what you mostly see in all the modern riots you show.

True enough. But I suspect there will be a period of "spoils" looting before the actual starvation kicks in. I expect that much of the early looting will be extremely wasteful, as looters steal mostly candy and desert items when they steal, and destroy much of what they cannot carry off.

But then the thread title is "dealing with Looters"; so I didn't think including footage of....looters.... was quite as ludicrous as you are convinced it is.

all the best.

I am more worried about looting in a ATHF scenario.

just think of the mooninites!

ERR will be the destructor, but there is hope!

Ignignokt will arrive just in time from the planet hidden behind the sun to deliver us technological advances to fight back! Perhaps even with the help of Flargon and Merle we will be able to use their device to retake our gold! and once again vanquish the enemy that an ATHF scenario will bring about.


you have been warned!

\

The LA Riots...what a waste of time...

The police bring down a suspect who was continually resisting arrest and high enough to overpower more typical measures.

I'd love to educate all those people pleading for "poor" Mr. King...on what Mr. King has done since then (such as more DUIs, numerous stints in rehab, more arrests, etc.).

This guy was (and is) a thug, and was taken down like one. Since getting a bunch of money from the city, he's only continued in these ways (and hit harder drugs)...

Those folks didn't give one rat's behind about the whole issue anyhow. They simply used it as an excuse to behave with total anarchy.

I do think it's similar to what we could expect to see though...people stealing TVs instead of food and weapons, for example.

The trick is community, if your going to stay in your homes inside a city the only way to survive for the long haul is to get every single person in your neighborhood on board with a community watch program, one way in one way out blocked off pathways and streets that all read TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT. Houses need to be interconnected either above ground or below to allow for proper defense or retreat. There would need to be dedicated night watch people who are armed and work on shifts, who at a moments notice can jump on a 2way and alert the rest of the armed guards to incoming trouble.

And from there block by block people would have to join other similar communities together and share resources and information. There would have to be raiding party's who would go out and rummage around for supply's and intel , over time banded communities like these would be a force to reckon with and would form the back bone of any civilized nation that might spring up in the aftermath of the chaos.

There is just no way a small family with limited supply's could protect and sustain themselves without the help of their neighbors.

In a situation like that it would not be unfeasible for fortress like communities to eventually form some kind of militia or policing force that would go out beyond there walls and help other people and start to bring safety and law back to the surrounding areas.

I expect the lawlessness would evolve over time.

The first 12 hours it would look like a typical riot for the basketball championship: turning over cars, setting them on fire, smashing store windows to get the TVs and sneakers. Then going for the electronics as more stores are violated.

Once their gas tanks begin to empty out, I think there'd by riots as they fought to siphon gasoline from service stations. Most of the violence would be at gas stations and pharmacies

Then, after the gas was gone, they'd begin breaking in wherever they could hope to find food.

After that, they'd begin to drift away. But with not running cars, and the streets rendered undrivable due to abandoned vehicles and just trash and bodies strewn in the roadway, people would leave mostly on foot.

At that point, the orgy of looting would be spent. You probably wouldn't draw much attention (or gunfire), as many perps would be low on ammo, and too weak from hunger/thirst to energetically pursue you.

I think if you had failed to bug out before the riots started, you could probably bug out at that point, and have some hope of success, if the roads were clear.

Maybe assemble a bugging out convoy. Couple of your people to scout ahead on foot or bicycle, moped, etc. Then a pickup or SUV with a winch to clear the road. Last comes the bulk of your supplies in the baggage train, as well as the young, old and weak.

Looters??? CHOOT EM!!!!

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
How would you all rate attack dogs(rottweilers and such) as a decent defense against looters, (at least the ones not armed with guns)?
I imagine keeping a pack handy would be very useful to conserve ammo, the only problem being that keeping them fed would cut into your rations.

Not if you fed the looters to the dogs
Happy well fed dogs
Good supply of looters if SHTF

Cran

reply to post by Retikx


Excellent points. I'm new to living out in the country, but it's a great community. In addition, it seems nearly all of these folks sense something on the horizon, and while not necessarily all-out preppers, I'd wager most do have some decent supplies, and all are armed (and live behind fences). I'm definitely going to make it a point to get to know more of my neighbors as we settle there.

reply to post by Retikx

The trick is community, if your going to stay in your homes inside a city the only way to survive for the long haul is to get every single person in your neighborhood on board with a community watch program, one way in one way out blocked off pathways and streets that all read TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT.

I agree with this.
I imagine looting parties would be limited to a few dozens.
A larger community that's armed to the teeth and is focused on "survival" has a better chance of resisting looters.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


yea my plan is to head for the everglades just as things are starting to get crappy....

heres the problem to many people who have an exit plan when shtf.....


2 words.... MARTIAL LAW... there will be cops at the end of every block...keeping people trapped where they are... if there isnt enough cops to guard the streets...they will have our military on checkpoints at every key exit in every community...

what do you do about that?..

well you can wait it out inside your house...and wait for the following to happen...

*cops leave checkpoints to protect their own families
*looters overwhelm those on checkpoints and take over the communities...

if you are inside your house, and you hear the mob going from house to house looting them, all i could do it barricade all entrances to my residence, and stay as quiet as possible, if they start breaking into your house, leave through the back door or any available windows...

just pray that they dont set your house on fire to "smoke you out"

If it is TOTAL lawlessness, there may not be a "mob" going house-to-house in the more suburban areas.

I hear soldiers say that patrolling residential areas is the worst, because every rooftop or open window may conceal a sniper. And with junked-out cars everywhere, and corners, there are endless chances for enfilade. Where deer rifles are more popular than pistols, the range of an individual defender could easily pin down a group of looters pretty much indefinitely. Without the range to return fire, and several independent strong-points with covered lines of retreat, even the martial lawyers might find it too costly to penetrate.

"Escape from New York City" is what I see with barracades and razor-wire for a nice fence, but to keep people out and not in like the movie. Turn cars on their sides and stagger them at angles in relation to other barracade/cars, so that there is no "straight shot" through them and blind corners for your "safe" area in the middle of your neighborly compound. Don't leave any holes but one for everyone to get in and out if need be, and play some really loud music to drown out movement noises within the compound. Then we might get to be able to play "Road Warriors", woohoo, can't wait. Xenongod More to come after this commercial!

This is an interesting topic because of the many variables and unknowns and It's impossible to prepare for everything especially with commo down and no way to know whether you're jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Staying put to marshal your resources and test the wind while organizing any remaining neighbors for mutual defense seems preferable to the suicide of competing with roving bands of hungry animals in unfamiliar territory, and big cities would be the most dangerous places of all.

Ultimately it would be difficult to tell the good guys from the bad guys and with the passage of time the need to survive would likely blur any lines and everybody would be pretty much alike: hungry, needy and desperate.

If unspecified disease prevails it's again better to be hunkered down and away from people for as long as possible and hope that as many people as possible die as quickly as possible. Plenty of supplies available after that.

There are philosophical questions as well. Given the total destruction of civilization with no expectation of return, will there come a point when life in the badlands literally isn't worth living? Especially when prepped provisions run out in a year.

Another reality is that despite winning the small battles a time will come when you'll surely be worn down by a larger force that will come after you simply because you're still there and might have something. What will be your endgame?

As for myself: I have a fireproof earthquake resistant house and all provisions for a year. That gives me time (if there is any) to see how things play out in relative comfort and have some fun with it meanwhile. Then it's off to the next lifetime for me.

Looters? Not worried about them, they're opportunistic shoplifters. Now if someone is trying to enter my home while it's occupied, that's a home invader. They'll be met with the appropriate amount of force needed to convince them to find a softer target. If they're armed I go straight to lethal force, no questions asked, no regrets. It's the choices that the individual made that brought them to their end and it's pretty much out of my hands at that point, vaya con dios.

I won't list what I have weapon wise, or even the ammo count.
However, my brother just returned from Iraq and will be living with me from this point on, him being a Marine I'm confident in his shooting skills more so than mine, and I hit 7 out of 10 on moving targets.
Worried about looters? Not at all, in a SHTF scenario it means anyone caught on my land is subject to torture and then killed however I see fit.

For many, these scenarios are what they secretly dream of.
That's why there are so many threads.
Lockers full of guns and ammo, never getting to use them.
Spending a life time preparing for the social apocalypse,
just so that new sniper rifle & laser sight can be put to use.
When they get closer? Well that's what the automatic shotgun is for.
Many act like "God forbid!" But really, they just wanna shoot someone.
This is who ALEC has in mind for their "Stand your ground" laws.
The NRA loves the paranoid gun enthusiast . Good business.
I'm sure not for most. But for some, I think shooting
minorities is the dress rehearsal.

The Answer to dealing with looters has already been answered because it's already been in Practice.

Hurricane Katrina, Tornadoes in the central states and other disasters have been the testing grounds for these strategies.

Gather as many people who you know you can trust in as large numbers as you can, fortify you location and stay well armed and vigilant. Then pray a larger force doesn't come to prey on you.