Muslims: I'm becoming very tired of your violence

reply to post by beezzer

Because they don't put the same value on life as western cultures do.

Really? Seems to be quite a blanket statement there, when we are the ones using drones to bomb muslims in countries all around the world, with absolutely no concern for any innocent caught up in the process. More innocents than terrorist s are being killed. We don't value life unless it's a westerners life.

I was prepared to simply dismiss this thread off-hand; just more anti-muslim propaganda, etc.

But the more responses I read, the more I realized that you really do have to think deeply about the topic, and perhaps face some realities that you may not be comfortable with. For that reason alone, kudos to Petrus. I enjoy a thread that actually makes you think it over (and admitedlly I've authored some that require no such thing).

If anything, you could simply shrug it off as the inevitable evils of religion, but there is no denying that there are those who would kill others and even sacrifice themselves in the furtherance of what they believe. Be they followers of Islam, Christianity, the Jewish faith, what have you, it is a reality.

For those who believe strongly in a particular set of ideas, there is no "getting along" with others who believe differently. An unfortunate situation, to be sure, and one with no good answer. Good topic, OP, and hopefully one that will produce positive debate.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by beezzer

 

Let me remind you that when Islam was living its Golden Age during the Dark Ages of Europe, Europeans didn't put as much value into human endeavor either. Human history is littered with cultural ups and downs.
It is true they don't value human life in the ME as much as westerners do right now, but this does not mean that the tides will not turn on you someday, that they will somehow learn to value life more than you and you will find yourself in a culture that has gone downhill. No bodys culture is free from the ability to fall is it?

edit on 26-2-2012 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

I agree that no-ones culture is free from the ebb and flow of time and respect for the value of human life.

But this can't be so easily dismissed.

Regardless of how they used to think, what they think now, and the policies from their thinking now, is what we have to deal with.

reply to post by nusnus


I don't mean to attack you personally, nusnus. I know this isn't about everyone.

I just wish those people who are doing it would stop. I don't know how to create a scenario where they will stop.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

I've been musing about a thread on America hegemony. We've been at war, as a nation, more than we've been at peace.

But to the topic at hand, if we as a western culture, backed away completely, I feel that it wouldn't be enough to stop the violence.

Middle Eastern cultures see that as a sign of weakness, as an oppourtunity for expansion.

We can play the numbers game, but it's a false foundation for honest debate. Because they don't put the same value on life as western cultures do.

I can't express my frustration in words after reading such comments.
What exactly is western culture???
Plz tell me.
Read the history of your culture and if you have any amount of sense you will feel shame.
The problem in middle east is your creation and forcing peace and any brand of culture doesn't work.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by beezzer

 

Because they don't put the same value on life as western cultures do.

Really? Seems to be quite a blanket statement there, when we are the ones using drones to bomb muslims in countries all around the world, with absolutely no concern for any innocent caught up in the process. More innocents than terrorist s are being killed. We don't value life unless it's a westerners life.

No. We're trying (feebly) to win a war. They chose the field of battle. And just because it's a rather general statement, doesn't lose it's validity.

Tell me this doesn't ring true with our society we live in, its scary how much power they have over people who create threads like this.

Inverted totalitarianism is a term coined by political philosopher Sheldon Wolin to describe an "ideal type" government.[clarification needed] Wolin uses the term to describe the government of the United States as it has evolved since World War II. Wolin contrasts the inverted totalitarianism of the United States with the totalitarian regimes such as Nazi Germany and the Stalinist Soviet Union.

Each superpower possessed extraterritorial power to influence countries within its sphere of influence: The Soviet Union mostly through military occupation, and the United States through its domination of multilateral institutions that were set up at the end of World War II. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States became the world's sole superpower (or hyperpower). Wolin capitalizes the word "superpower" to mark the United States' uniqueness as being an actual form of government and not an ideal type.

And finally this is why you have this irrational view towards Muslim's as a collective.

This brings us to one major respect in which Superpower resembles Nazi Germany without an inversion: the essential role that propaganda plays in the system. Whereas the production of propaganda was crudely centralized in Nazi Germany, in Superpower it is left to highly concentrated media corporations, thus maintaining the illusion of a "free press". Dissent is allowed, although the corporate media serves as a filter, allowing most people, with limited time available to keep themselves apprised of current events, only to hear points of view which the corporate media deems to be "serious".

Superpower has two main totalizing dynamics. The first, directed outward, finds its expression in the Global War on Terror and in the Bush Doctrine that Superpower has the right to launch preemptive wars. This amounts to Superpower seeing as illegitimate the attempt by any state to resist its domination. The second dynamic, directed inward, involves the subjection of the mass of the population to economic "rationalization", with continual "downsizing" and "outsourcing" of jobs abroad and dismantling of what remains of the welfare state created by U.S. Presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal and Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society. (Thus, neoliberalism is an integral component of inverted totalitarianism.) The state of insecurity in which this places the public serves the useful function of making people feel helpless, thus making it less likely that they will become politically active, and thus helping to maintain the first dynamic.

Yeah so that basically clears up why you have such views towards Muslim's.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by deepankarm

I can't express my frustration in words after reading such comments.
What exactly is western culture???
Plz tell me.
Read the history of your culture and if you have any amount of sense you will feel shame.
The problem in middle east is your creation and forcing peace and any brand of culture doesn't work.

Sorry.
Western culture, european, north american.
No shame. Frustration, maybe, but no shame.
The ME "problem" has been ongoing for millenia. As for forcing peace? What would be another option? Forcing war?

reply to post by beezzer


This is not a war that will be won by dropping more bombs or collectively punishing every Afghani, Pakistani, Palestinian and Iraqi.

Surely our presence in the region and our actions in the region fuel this hatred and violence towards the west. We have been carving up the middle east for decades, supporting Israel's illegal actions, supporting corrupt regimes, propping up dodgy dictators, pitting one against the other, supplying chemical weapons and illegally invading nations.

I imagine if the roles were reversed there would be some pretty angry westerners out there.

Don't get me wrong. I am no fan of Islam and the culture of these middle eastern countries, but I imagine if we minded our own business and hadn't played such a negative role in their region, there would not be such a problem. We could just leave them to get on with their own affairs and trade with them, rather than control them.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by METACOMET
reply to post by beezzer

 

Winning the war would be hitting them so hard that they actually respected us. To hell with winning hearts and minds. That's never going to happen. .

Um, the Australian SASR was making phenomenal progress in WHAM, especially as of late. Then the American military comes along with stupid acts such as the dead soldiers problem and now this Quran problem and # everything up.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by beezzer

 

This is not a war that will be won by dropping more bombs or collectively punishing every Afghani, Pakistani, Palestinian and Iraqi.

Surely our presence in the region and our actions in the region fuel this hatred and violence towards the west. We have been carving up the middle east for decades, supporting Israel's illegal actions, supporting corrupt regimes, propping up dodgy dictators, pitting one against the other, supplying chemical weapons and illegally invading nations.

I imagine if the roles were reversed there would be some pretty angry westerners out there.

Don't get me wrong. I am no fan of Islam and the culture of these middle eastern countries, but I imagine if we minded our own business and hadn't played such a negative role in their region, there would not be such a problem. We could just leave them to get on with their own affairs and trade with them, rather than control them.

This is a war we'll never win.
If neither side has won after a couple of millenia, then I don't see any hope for a solution in the near future.

A cease-fire, a truce is the best we can hope for.

Our culture doesn't have the stones to win it.
Their culture would risk total destructio to win it.

So we're losing, regardless of the intent.

reply to post by daaskapital
If American actions could rock any gains that easily, then the foundations must not have been too solid to begin with. Not to belittle attempts, but big picture?
It would never last.

reply to post by beezzer


Reading into the SASR's WHAM scenarios, they are very effective and have led to the capture of high profile terrorists. Whenever, the allies need intel, the SASR can either do Recon and get it, or WHAM. WHAM definitely works, and the US military pays them out for doing it for some reason.

But yes, the foundations of WHAM are strong, but it doesn't exactly help when they get a whiff of the riots.

well gee bubba what the hell do you expect them to do when the u.s illegaly invades their countries ... bombs them to oblivion ... murders them in cold blood...

their doing what anyone would .... fighting for their homes ... lives and way of life...

not everyone wants to live under american tyrany and oppression.. erm freedumb and dumbocracy... erm .. whatever the hell the americans are calling their bolloxed system of murder and oppression this week..

...

Originally posted by abominatonofdesolation
Tell me this doesn't ring true with our society we live in, its scary how much power they have over people who create threads like this.

I've already said that I am well aware of America's use of Islam, in accordance with Mussolini's/Wolfowitz's external threat doctrine.

My point was that, despite my awareness of such, I have seen Islamic individuals behaving in such a way which strongly implies that Islam genuinely is a threat, irrespective of American exploitation of said threat's existence, for totalitarian purposes.

Violent, expansionist fanaticism exists within Islam, and has existed historically, irrespective of the American government's contemporary demonisation of Islam. As nusnus said, the most effective lie, is one that has an element of genuine truth.

reply to post by beezzer


Well this clearly clears up why present generation of westerners don't know anything about history.
Are you telling me that the western world has never seen wars throughout history???
Are you telling me the problem of terrorism has been going on for millenia???
Peace can't be forced through force.
Why don't you understand???
You never bothered about ME peace for millenia but yeah when it comes to one's own interest, everyone becomes a moral police.

Originally posted by deepankarm
I am tired of these foolish threads.
There are about 180 million muslims in my country called India and i haven't heard of any violence over this issue.

en.wikipedia.org...

im going to go ahead and take a guess that you dont live in mumbai??

If you really want "peace" to exist then you have to give people time for find their "peace". Leave their country, stop killing their mothers, sisters, brothers, fathers, sons, daughters. Try to imagine what it would feel like if your house was bombed and most of your family died and the rest lived in horror and grief and wanted vengeance. Wouldn't you be mad? wouldn't you want revenge? wouldn't you want to kill those who killed your family? would you really try to find a easier way to making peace with your enemy? what if they killed you after you found peace? The stupidity of those in the west that try to understand this is enormous.
Imagine if you kill one person, then you've put anger and revenge in the chest of a whole village. And if you were to bomb a house? you could gather the same in a larger scale. Now try to imagine what people think about the "west" after 1,5 million killed in Iraq. People aren't any longer feared by violence, If violence is the solution that some of you may think, then why are you so afraid of it? we will all die eventually. Muslims do not prepare themselves to live on this earth forever, they're preparing for the next. Besides the fastest growing religion is Islam and will always be, If you're having trouble to see the truth, I doubt others are. If you believe in the propaganda that's been given to you about Islam, then it will be your own destruction.
As some in the west may think that Islam is from the "stone age" it's in fact that most of the laws that are used today in Europe to build a society that lasts and can think for itself has been brought from Islam. Islam has existed since the beginning of life and will continue to exist, you'll never be able to "clean them" from the face of this earth.
Religion is not what brings violence to life, It's politics, people's interests are what keeps people in conflict. I want oil and you want oil, you'll make sure to do everything in your power to get that oil. And from there the propaganda has arrived, getting people's support for your own agenda. Do you really think that the US can fight those wars in the ME if the troops had not followed them? The blame is to be put on your leaders, but you yourself as a individual in that of a society you call "Democracy" where you think that you can have any affect on the decisions of your leaders must know that most of the fault is actually in your hands. The leaders are leading "you" to their own agenda, If you don't want war then what's your government doing there? If you don't want a country to retaliate then why begin the fight? If you want peace, then why are you sacrificing innocent human life just for oil? US is the most pathetic country that has ever existed, It's in such error that only a fall of it would bring at least some peace to this world.

Here is the break-down of a story I have been working on for the past 2 years.

The Governments of the world build a huge Island, kind of like the man-made Islands in Dubai.

Then, all of the people who want to fight over religion, hatred and ignorance go there and have the war to end all wars.


The rest of the human race tunes in to the war, on every computer and television screen on the Planet.

The show will be called Armageddon, and the every-day man is happy to watch the maniacs kill each other once and for all.