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Are You a Person or a Zombie?

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posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 06:18 PM
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How do I know your conscious? How do I know that your not just a creation of my mind?

It seems we take for granted that others are conscious. In fact it may impossible to really prove, so we just have to use logic and reason to come to any conclusions. Although I do believe people have their own consciousness, it does seem like some people are zombies, just going through life processing a program that was uploaded to them when they were young. It looks as if some people really don't think for themselves or at least think reasonably.

I live amongst zombies, for all "I" know, it is "I' who is the only real living one.




posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 06:22 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

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posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by Ralphy
How do I know your conscious? How do I know that your not just a creation of my mind?

It seems we take for granted that others are conscious. In fact it may impossible to really prove, so we just have to use logic and reason to come to any conclusions. Although I do believe people have their own consciousness, it does seem like some people are zombies, just going through life processing a program that was uploaded to them when they were young. It looks as if some people really don't think for themselves or at least think reasonably.

I live amongst zombies, for all "I" know, it is "I' who is the only real living one.


Classic definition of a sociopath. Not saying you are one, but sociopaths don't consider other people as "real."



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by Ralphy
 


Hmm. Logic, thinking, what you can prove using those tools in looking at people who are "not thinking?" Sooo much left brain. I would propose that if these are the only means by which you are searching for these answers, you are perhaps more "zombie" than you yourself realize.

Lots of other tools available if you are genuinely seeking answers. Good luck!



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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I can see where you guys are coming from, I'm just bringing this topic up to inspire thought. Like I said I believe others are conscious, I'm just mentioning the idea of how else the world could be looked at. Also at the end I was just bringing up the fact of the "I' that is universal as one and as everyone at the same time.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by Ralphy
I can see where you guys are coming from, I'm just bringing this topic up to inspire thought. Like I said I believe others are conscious, I'm just mentioning the idea of how else the world could be looked at. Also at the end I was just bringing up the fact of the "I' that is universal as one and as everyone at the same time.


The poster above is correct, it sounds like a sign of being a sociopath ..they lack empathy which is a crucial element of morality .. it's what makes them potentially dangerous.

Not saying you are.. but it's also the first thing that came to my mind



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Ralphy
How do I know your conscious? How do I know that your not just a creation of my mind?

It seems we take for granted that others are conscious. In fact it may impossible to really prove, so we just have to use logic and reason to come to any conclusions. Although I do believe people have their own consciousness, it does seem like some people are zombies, just going through life processing a program that was uploaded to them when they were young. It looks as if some people really don't think for themselves or at least think reasonably.

I live amongst zombies, for all "I" know, it is "I' who is the only real living one.


depends what time of the day you get me lol! The morning after a big night on the drink ........... well



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 06:52 PM
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reply to post by Ralphy
 



"Are You a Person or a Zombie?"


I Am.



How do I know your conscious?


What is your understanding of what consciousness is?



How do I know that your not just a creation of my mind?


Energy is neither created nor destroyed. You can not create what has always been.



"I live amongst zombies, for all "I" know, it is "I' who is the only real living one."


Such a lonely reality you come from!



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 07:04 PM
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What are you guys even going on about?? Sociopath? Are you even qualified to make that assessment?

The ideals that the OP are suggesting is pretty cookie-cutter solipsism. It's the theory that nothing exists out of one's own mind. As if reality is subjective. It's just a form of epistemology, not "sociopathology".

Just because one is using logic to determine their perspective of the world, does not meant they are a sociopath. Good grief. Besides making the claim that the OP's statement sounds like one of a "sociopath", did any of you actually try and answer their first questions?

Go ahead. Show me how you are going to prove that anyone else is real within logic. Show me that everything in your reality is not just a manifestation of your own mind. Can you do this logically? Have you experienced the consciousness of another individual from a first-hand and -person perspective? Can you prove that this life you live is not, in fact, a dream? Even if it is just an idea, or theory, how can you absolutely say to yourself "This is not a dream."?

In fact, Solipsism syndrome used to be (or perhaps still is) very common among astronauts due to extended occupancy in space. Are these astronauts sociopaths?

As per Wikipedia:

Solipsism is a philosophical position that nothing outside one's own mind can be known to exist, or, sometimes, the position that nothing outside one's own mind does exist. Solipsism syndrome is, by extension, the overwhelming feeling that nothing is real, that all is a dream. Sufferers become lonely and detached from the world and eventually become completely indifferent.[3] Some people claim to have suffered from Solipsism Syndrome[4] but it is not currently recognized as a psychiatric disorder by the American Psychiatric Association.[5]
Shortly after the first manned space efforts, scientists recognized that future space missions might face different scenarios, environments, and challenges, than those of short flight duration.[6] Psychologists have noted that some astronauts and cosmonauts have exhibited symptoms of the syndrome.[7] Concern was raised by scholars regarding the role of the syndrome in fostering disputes within space colonies, including those such as Skylab.[8]

Solipsism
Solipsism syndrome

As far as the OP's claim about people being zombies... This is ATS... have you never heard the term "Sheeple"? People don't think for themselves, they don't think rationally, and yes, they go through life as if they are programmed to just flow with the system, work their job, and then die. How is this even outlandish for ATS's standards?

Of course, I am not saying that any philosophical system is how it is, but I do see the logic in solipsism. But seriously... four useless replies??

I really love to hear about different philosophical views and ideals and was hoping this could be a good thread filled with shared ideals and maybe some awesome information, but the replies really ruined that...

Do go on, OP.
edit on 15-2-2012 by ErroneousDylan because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by miniatus

Originally posted by Ralphy
I can see where you guys are coming from, I'm just bringing this topic up to inspire thought. Like I said I believe others are conscious, I'm just mentioning the idea of how else the world could be looked at. Also at the end I was just bringing up the fact of the "I' that is universal as one and as everyone at the same time.


The poster above is correct, it sounds like a sign of being a sociopath ..they lack empathy which is a crucial element of morality .. it's what makes them potentially dangerous.

Not saying you are.. but it's also the first thing that came to my mind


By definition the majority who visit this website are sociopathic when applied to the wider society they live in as they are 'denying' what everyone else is accepting. Also the social majority decide what the social norm is, so when being called a sociopath it doesn't necessarily discredit any of the OP's beliefs or opinions as the social majority presently are clearly insane.

As for the topic at hand the OP is definitely touching on an interesting topic, have you ever re-watched any classic child-hood movie that you really loved? If you haven't go out and find a movie you really felt emotionally attached to as a child, hopefully you will discover a very strange re-occurring theme among each of the movies :

They all help psycho-sexual and psycho-social development in children and adults, what i am trying to allude to is the 'programming' many try to speak about as if experts. Basically a large majority of the human population are, simply put, 'animals' . Animals that need to be trained into the society that a few gifted people have built, i know i sound like a sociopath (joke intended) but it is true, these animals are what you are referring to as 'zombies', they are the unwilling masses.

The best thing to do is to try and break out of every routine you have built for yourself, because the thing about routine is that it only trains the parts of the brain needed to repeat behavior, this part of the brain is so 'lowly' or 'primordial' it is actually shameful how much we revere it in society. Another bad thing about routine is that if the routine is broken via an unexpected variable the brain does not know how to cope, it doesn't have the capacity to 'think on the fly'. which is again degrading for anyone who observes such an event.





edit on 15-2-2012 by TruthIncarnate because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-2-2012 by TruthIncarnate because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by Ralphy
 


u mean to b honest but you are not, everyone else here said what u already know, when truth is then anyone is free, even animals awareness

that insistance to invent excuses in meaning to justify freedom lies wills is too widely known by now

true objective existence sense is abused from being a sense and not a fact yet
while truth freedom meaning objective existence rights did it that way on purpose to isolate liars before starting to b the absolute fact

it is pathetic to mean taking from what is the only fact existing, it says clearly how u cant b true so u would preach the nonsense of nothing truth being god enjoying boredom constancy from opposites creations in negative inferiority realms constancy way of beings with the illusion of powers when opposites meet

it is all crazy inventions of evil lies but over soon since truth is starting to show up being real



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by ErroneousDylan
What are you guys even going on about?? Sociopath? Are you even qualified to make that assessment?

The ideals that the OP are suggesting is pretty cookie-cutter solipsism. It's the theory that nothing exists out of one's own mind. As if reality is subjective. It's just a form of epistemology, not "sociopathology".

Just because one is using logic to determine their perspective of the world, does not meant they are a sociopath. Good grief. Besides making the claim that the OP's statement sounds like one of a "sociopath", did any of you actually try and answer their first questions?

Go ahead. Show me how you are going to prove that anyone else is real within logic. Show me that everything in your reality is not just a manifestation of your own mind. Can you do this logically? Have you experienced the consciousness of another individual from a first-hand and -person perspective? Can you prove that this life you live is not, in fact, a dream? Even if it is just an idea, or theory, how can you absolutely say to yourself "This is not a dream."?

In fact, Solipsism syndrome used to be (or perhaps still is) very common among astronauts due to extended occupancy in space. Are these astronauts sociopaths?

As per Wikipedia:

Solipsism is a philosophical position that nothing outside one's own mind can be known to exist, or, sometimes, the position that nothing outside one's own mind does exist. Solipsism syndrome is, by extension, the overwhelming feeling that nothing is real, that all is a dream. Sufferers become lonely and detached from the world and eventually become completely indifferent.[3] Some people claim to have suffered from Solipsism Syndrome[4] but it is not currently recognized as a psychiatric disorder by the American Psychiatric Association.[5]
Shortly after the first manned space efforts, scientists recognized that future space missions might face different scenarios, environments, and challenges, than those of short flight duration.[6] Psychologists have noted that some astronauts and cosmonauts have exhibited symptoms of the syndrome.[7] Concern was raised by scholars regarding the role of the syndrome in fostering disputes within space colonies, including those such as Skylab.[8]

Solipsism
Solipsism syndrome

As far as the OP's claim about people being zombies... This is ATS... have you never heard the term "Sheeple"? People don't think for themselves, they don't think rationally, and yes, they go through life as if they are programmed to just flow with the system, work their job, and then die. How is this even outlandish for ATS's standards?

Of course, I am not saying that any philosophical system is how it is, but I do see the logic in solipsism. But seriously... four useless replies??

I really love to hear about different philosophical views and ideals and was hoping this could be a good thread filled with shared ideals and maybe some awesome information, but the replies really ruined that...

Do go on, OP.
edit on 15-2-2012 by ErroneousDylan because: (no reason given)


You are correct. I, too, have read philosophical arguments about the nature of reality. However, I also know from my studies that sociopaths also have a "egotistical," viewpoint about reality. And sociopathy is more prevelant than most people realize.

The op asked for our thoughts. That is what I thought. Hence the post.

Op, to clarify: I am NOT calling you a sociopath, and if you thought that and were offended then I apologize



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by mileysubet
post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.




I only wish I remembered what I said...

I think I may have said something about not doing drugs.
edit on 15-2-2012 by mileysubet because: just remembered



posted on Feb, 16 2012 @ 04:19 AM
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I fail to see how anyone immediately jumps to sociopath when considering the OP... Posing a question about other people consciousness or lack there of does not a sociopath make. Even by making the statement that the OP believes some are in fact zombies or on autopilot doesn't scream sociopath either. The OP posed valid questions and their opinion, none which elude to their incapacity to empathize or that they possess a self indulgent egotistical nature. With all the talk of psycho and sociopaths recently, I think people are regurgitating information that has yet to be digested in a way that can be intelligently and coherently applied. Therefore, people should stop trying to label others with very serious implications to their personality and character. More research and thought is greatly needed... So many here are misinformed and only make themselves look foolish.

My apologies for kicking your proverbial soapboxes out from underneath you.

Back to the original topic at hand. I do believe that it's obvious many people are on auto pilot and appear zombie like, but I don't think it's due to soullessness or lack of consciousness, I think it's the success of years of programming, poor nutrition, fluoridation, radiation, tv, sleep deprivation, medication, stress... The list is long and vast. We are bombarded on every possible level to conform, to be good drones, and have to spend most of our lives working hard for very little in return. However most won't see it that way, because we've been told that is success.

The best slaves are the ones who believe they're free.
edit on 16-2-2012 by SilverStarGazer because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2012 @ 06:22 AM
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Originally posted by SilverStarGazer
I fail to see how anyone immediately jumps to sociopath when considering the OP... Posing a question about other people consciousness or lack there of does not a sociopath make. Even by making the statement that the OP believes some are in fact zombies or on autopilot doesn't scream sociopath either. The OP posed valid questions and their opinion, none which elude to their incapacity to empathize or that they possess a self indulgent egotistical nature. With all the talk of psycho and sociopaths recently, I think people are regurgitating information that has yet to be digested in a way that can be intelligently and coherently applied. Therefore, people should stop trying to label others with very serious implications to their personality and character. More research and thought is greatly needed... So many here are misinformed and only make themselves look foolish.

My apologies for kicking your proverbial soapboxes out from underneath you.

Back to the original topic at hand. I do believe that it's obvious many people are on auto pilot and appear zombie like, but I don't think it's due to soullessness or lack of consciousness, I think it's the success of years of programming, poor nutrition, fluoridation, radiation, tv, sleep deprivation, medication, stress... The list is long and vast. We are bombarded on every possible level to conform, to be good drones, and have to spend most of our lives working hard for very little in return. However most won't see it that way, because we've been told that is success.

The best slaves are the ones who believe they're free.
edit on 16-2-2012 by SilverStarGazer because: (no reason given)


Then allow me to explain why the first thing that popped into my mind was sociopathy.
I'm working on my doctorate in education psychology and had just finished reading a couple of books dealing with sociopathy. It was on my mind.....and hence the first thing that came to mind when I read the op.

I thought I made it clear that I was not stating the op was a sociopath, but that the thoughts he described were often associated with sociopathy.

I do realize the post was intended to illicit a general discussion and were not meant to be a "diagnostic" tool or description of symptoms.

I don't really have a soap box, but if you like to believe so, then consider it kicked.




posted on Feb, 16 2012 @ 09:51 AM
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Even if you totally believed you were the only one consciousness it would not make you a bad person in this world, in fact it would make you better and happier and more respectful.
People who believe in other people use other people and expect others to take care of them and think others owe them a favor, this would not be possible if you believed you were alone, you would have to be self sufficent.
The them and us mentally just would not be possible, so blame would vanish and responsibility would prevail.

In a dream the only consciousness that is there is you yet 'others' are experienced. You will only ever beable to experience yourself having an experience.

Ralphy, you might like what Rupert Spira has to say about this, he wrote a book called 'The Transparency of Things - Contemplating the Nature of Experience'.
'Everything is made of yourself',
youtu.be...


edit on 16-2-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2012 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


i disagree, u cant be relative right unless u realize objectively existence of else

what the op stated is not wrong but what u r clarifying here is wrong

meaning urself conscious being urself world is the same then meaning absolute existence being u

u keep denying truth existence in depth while it is all what exist, u cant b conscious unless u realize conscious being truly objectively existing first

what you suggest is wrong bc it is the opposite to right

as if u believe that truth is the result of what you are which is complete nonsense

if ur conscious is first then anything out of it is relative so never related to any truth

while if u mean that reality of all results is the truth then u kill the concept of truth why calling it that way? truth of what ? it would b the reality of conscious not conscious truth



posted on Feb, 16 2012 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by absolutely
 


I am sorry i never know what you mean, however you can disagree all you want.



posted on Feb, 16 2012 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by Ralphy
 


Although I subscribe to the existence of other minds and wills, I know where you're coming from and this question is the backbone of Kant's 'thing-in-itself' i.e. the lack of first-person experience of the object being examined. Simply put, knowing a 'thing-in-itself' is impossible outside the realm of omniscience.

Here's an excerpt from Evan Harris Walker's The Physics of Consciousness that takes the question to it's logical conclusion by considering objects to possess consciousness:


Suppose there is an ice cube lying on the floor, melting. Does the ice cube feel pain? If you understood what I mean by consciousness, you will recognize that this question is neither frivolour nor answerable. There is no measurement or observation that we can make on this object that will tell us whether it, like a person, has consciousness. The ice cube does not look like a person. It does not answer, "yes,", when we ask if it is conscious. We cannot program it to respond to interrogations as though it were conscious, the way we can program a computer. Yet it could be conscious, or it may be that it is not conscious.


He addresses it a few times throughout the book and IMO satisfactorily by defining consciousness as all things in totality. However, and I know the ethical implications of denying people consciousness, but the ethics as a result of this realization doesn't change according to the existence or non-existence of other minds. Your own self is the reference and things you would not like done to your self extend to other selves, or as Buddha said it: Consider others as yourself and treat them accordingly.

This also lead to Turing's test.
edit on 16-2-2012 by imherejusttoread because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2012 @ 01:28 PM
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Textreply to post by Ralphy
 


We are all Zombies the question should be which kind are u?



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