Why can't my friends and family help me with suicide?!!, page 2


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ATS Members have flagged this thread 5 times


reply posted on 6-2-2012 @ 11:13 AM by MrDesolate
For one thing, I think there's way too much opportunity for potential abuse. Some poor old fart gets guilted into taking the leap because a bunch of predatory jerks are exercising undue influence, for example.

Part of what laws are designed to do is protect the weakest among us, and sometimes that means protecting people from themselves.

It's a catch 22. You shouldn't be able to make a permanent decision like that if you're irrational, and at least at this point, suicide is seen in a lot of cases as an irrational act.

I think there's a big difference between suicide, and allowing someone to go without employing measures to prevent death. I can tell you from personal experience that medical professionals are not averse to dosing up a terminal case with some heavy morphine and just allow them to go.

These decisions are best made the way they are now, between a patient and the medical team and the family. You start throwing around governmental intervention and "death panels" and whatnot, it's only going to get uglier. As it is, you want to whack yourself, do it. For those who truly need and should have assistance, it's there. Under the table and behind a thick curtain, but make no mistake, it's there.

But if you just think you need to go for some reason other than screaming terminal agony, then it's strictly a do-it-yourselfer.

Don't come to me with legal justifications until the government can get things like the license bureau or tax code right, sane, and sensible. They can't do those regulations coherently and fairly, you want them to write up a set of rules for suicide?


reply posted on 6-2-2012 @ 04:06 PM by SaturnFX
Originally posted by curious7
Someone with severe MS that wants to go and has the aforementioned year long medical treatment should be allowed to decide whether or not friends and family can help, otherwise it should be a solo effort.

Attempted suicide is illegal in most parts also...solo effort you say? same thing according to the state...a crime anyways.


Drop the "what I feel about it"? Drop the judgment?

When you've attempted suicide multiple times for a variety of reasons - none related to health - like I have then yeah, I think I'm entitled to judge and feel stuff on the subject. Thanks.

You can feel and judge stuff, but as far as demanding leglation to stop people from making choices, your feelings should be overridden by a desire for fairness and freedom.

I tend to not like, and even judge, other peoples lifestyles..but just because I disapprove of peoples choices doesn't mean I should try to interrupt their personal choices with my moral views..especially trying to get the law to clamp down on anyone whom thinks differently than me.

Suicide is not a cowards way out (to address a previous statement you made). Its a selfish way out perhaps, but cowards way? no...I could never muster the courage to off myself...I would always be scrambling to try and change things, or just live with whatever until I couldn't live any longer..but that is not because I am all brave. I just am too weak in the face of other peoples disappointment. I can't do that to those whom love me no matter how screwed up life turns on me. so, instead of suicide, I just adopt a good sense of humor

Personally, I see someone whom offs themselves for non-physical pain issues are just temporarily insane. the mind can be a powerful tool, and when it is damaged, it can powerfully damage yourself or others until its corrected.
But, my personal feelings are beside the point. I feel similar about someone getting a tattoo of a boy/girlfriends name on them to be almost equal in the bad permanent decision arena...their right though


reply posted on 3-5-2012 @ 10:24 AM by Murgatroid
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Should suicide (assisted or not) along with euthenasia remain illegal?
note: This is a rant of fiction. I do not actually want to take my life.


Your thoughts? if you say yes, then why?

And what if I DON"T say yes? Not interested? Of course this is only fictional suicide were talking about here... But what about those reading this who may be at the end of their proverbial rope who are NOT talking fiction and believe that this idea of ending it all sounds wonderful but are more interested in reality than things that they may have been lied to about concerning the most important issue facing all of us.

Am I the only one here who is more interested in whats REAL concerning ETERNITY than being right or politically correct? Ignoring reality tends to be a bit dangerous at times, ESPECIALLY when life or death is involved. The quotes below are for those more interested in NON-fiction and reality concerning life and death:

Angie Fenimore


Angie Fenimore in a desperate state of mind committed suicide on January 8, 1991 hoping to escape her sense of emptiness and suffering.

I was passing over into a different sphere. My soul was disconnecting from my body with a hum that kept growing louder, rising to a whine as the vibration of death pulled me deeper.

I noticed that there was a large screen before me. I was being drawn into a three-dimensional slide show of my life that played out before my eyes chronologically, while I experienced every part of it from all points of view and all points of understanding. I knew exactly how each person felt who had ever interacted with me.

Then God spoke to me. His words were excruciating:

"Is this what you really want? Don't you know that this is the worst thing you could have done?"

I could feel his anger and frustration, both because I'd thrown in the towel and because I had cut myself off from him and from his guidance. And I'd felt trapped. I had been able to see no other choice but to die before I could do any more damage in life. So I answered:

"But my life is so hard."

My thoughts were communicated so fast that they weren't even completed before I absorbed his response:

"You think that was hard? It is nothing compared to what awaits you if you take your life."

He had been there for me all through my life, but I had not trusted Him.

"I told you how to get through this," He said, If you read the Scriptures and pray."

I could now see that prayer is the key to unlocking the truths that are contained in God's written Word. The Scriptures are our textbooks, but God is the teacher. Of course, we are all students, and until the author of the work explains His symbolism, sometimes we just don't get it." LINK


Tamara Laroux


"Tamara Laroux as a young woman, was in an immense amount of emotional pain. One day she decided to finally end it once and for all and she took a gun and shot herself in the chest. What happened next was a complete and total shock to her..."

Her spirit left her body and began traveling at the speed of light. She was crying to God to "please forgive me" before shooting herself. Tamara entered into ultimate darkness and was eternally banished from the presence of the one true GOD. Tamara realized her soul had been transformed into a being of sin and death.

Tamara`s knowledge was made perfect. Revelation of truth and pure wisdom became a part of her. She had infinite knowledge of life ,creation, and all of existence down to the last detail and was known to all. She knew the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord for eternity and the purpose of life had been to bring glory and honor to HIM. Tamera knew she was in the place the BIBLE describes as HELL. Tamara looked out across a vast expanse and saw all three heavens,she also saw the universe in its entirety,but says it is small compared to the other areas of existence.

Tamara says GOD is so massive and incredible and she saw his huge massive hand reach down and scoop her up and take her away from all torment. She was traveling at the speed of light again and came to HEAVEN. Then she was placed back in her body and was given another chance and knew it was her responsibility to tell all of GOD`S people how real HELL is and yet how much GOD loves us." Tamara Laroux Video




edit on 3-5-2012 by Murgatroid because: I felt like it..



reply posted on 3-5-2012 @ 10:52 AM by mamabeth
reply to post by SaturnFX


Whew! You really had me going there for a minute.
Don't scare Mama like that again,shame on you.


reply posted on 3-5-2012 @ 11:18 AM by SaturnFX
reply to post by Murgatroid


I person in a miserable state having a miserable dream. go figure.
I am not going to debate the pros and cons of potential afterlife experiences for variations of death. I am talking about life, our physical existance, and how others can tell you what you can do with your body.

It is absurd that I can tell you, with law on my side, when you can and cannot kill yourself.

You will find that most of the people wanting to keep it illegal to attempt suicide, are the same ones that want to deny you health care. Explain to me why you have the right to tell me I must endure torture and pain (either mental or physical)....
Sure, you can (and should) try to console and perhaps talk me out of my decision...that is being a good person/friend/whatever, but what right does one human have to control another humans choice of continued existance so long as the person has a understanding of what they are doing?

None.

The bible discusses consequences of killing yourself maybe (sort of...bit gray). But it certainly does not tell you to make laws to stop people from deciding. Thats all this is about really.

As far as my personal opinion of suicide. I don't judge those whom do that. I feel sad for them that they couldn't find a way to reach out, or that nobody nearby was there to say the right words for them to get hope or whatever they needed at the time. But, otherwise, its not for me to judge them.


reply posted on 3-5-2012 @ 11:19 AM by SaturnFX
Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by SaturnFX


Whew! You really had me going there for a minute.
Don't scare Mama like that again,shame on you.


This thread is 3 months old...if I was contemplating suicide, I have the slowest mind ever


reply posted on 3-5-2012 @ 11:38 AM by mamabeth
reply to post by SaturnFX


I didn't take notice of when you posted this thread.
I just saw it this morning and responded.



reply posted on 3-5-2012 @ 11:47 AM by Murgatroid
Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
"Suicide is painless...It brings on many changes. "

ORLY? Just in case someone actually takes Sadam's recommendation seriously:

“Tell her that if she decides to go through with the taking of her life, there are eternal consequences that she will have to deal with for the rest of her eternal life. The PAIN that she will cause her daughter and immediate family members will be severe and permanent!


The pain will be severe...


"I had been working with this girl for about a year. She has an extremely brutal past and I mean that literally. If anyone had a valid reason in their own minds to commit suicide, this girl had it! She looked straight at me and told me that she had made up her mind that she was going to take her own life and that there was nothing I could do or say that was going to stop it!"

"She said that she had it with her life, that there was no more joy in her life, and that she felt she had nothing more to really live for! She did not care if God threw her into hell for doing this. I gave her my “55″ reasons as to why she should not do this, but nothing I said was getting through. I was literally up against a brick wall, and I could not even make one dent in that brick wall. She was that certain with this decision!"

Now here is the Word the Lord gave me to give to her:

“Tell her that if she decides to go through with the taking of her life, here are the eternal consequences that she will have to deal with for the rest of her eternal life.
  1. The pain that she will cause her daughter and immediate family members will be severe and permanent! However, her daughter will hold on to the hope that God will have mercy on her mother and that God will not condemn her to hell for eternity.

  2. Her daughter will then go on with the rest of her life hoping that she will once more see and be reunited with her mother once she dies and crosses over into heaven.

  3. And here is where the extreme eternal consequence of committing suicide comes in. Murder in any form, including to oneself, is prohibited under God’s laws. It is a stone commandment – thou shall not murder! And that includes killing yourself!

  4. When her daughter eventually dies and crosses over into heaven, the first thing she will do is ask God if her mother made it into heaven. If God has to tell her that she did not make it and will have to spend the rest of her eternal life in a place called hell, her daughter will then be forced to carry an eternal pain, an eternal hole in her soul that will never go away – ever! She only has one earthly mother and the thought of never seeing her again will be the one pain that God will have a problem with in trying to soften – even in heaven!

Tell her that if she doesn’t care anything about her own life, not to commit this act due to the eternal consequences involving her own daughter.

Do you want to spend the rest of your eternal life in hell and have to deal with all the pain that is in hell in addition to knowing the pain that your daughter will have while she is in heaven – the pain of being eternally separated from you forever?

Do you want to roll the dice and take your chances that this will not happen – knowing full well that one of the 10 commandments is “thou shall not murder” – including yourself?

Read full article




edit on 3-5-2012 by Murgatroid because: I felt like it..



reply posted on 3-5-2012 @ 05:11 PM by Murgatroid
This goes out to all the peeps of ATS who have lost hope, thanks to yeahright & evilsadam this thread now has it's own official soundtrack:

"Suicide Is Painless" (aka The Theme From MASH) was composed with music by Johnny Mandel and astonishing lyrics by a 14 year-old boy, Mike Altman, the son of the director of this landmark 1970 film, Robert Altman. Robert Altman noted in an interview years later that his son made more money off royalties from this song than he did directing the film. An instrumental version of this song was ultimately used in the television version of MASH as well.

Have to say these lyrics are without a doubt some horribly diabolical lyrics, I was going to copy the lyrics into the post until I actually read them which made me think about this:

"I'm not trying to say that all of the artists in these two videos are sitting around drinking blood at the mason temple - (at least not all of them) - I'm trying to say that the music industry is controlled by satanists. People who understand symbolism are using it against the masses to condition them. There is no other explanation. Many of the artists are dupes or controlled. Satan tempted Eve with hidden knowledge and he's been doing it to mankind ever since. The word occult means hidden knowledge - and let me tell you something - once you learn their secrets - you find out it was all a lie and rip off. That's why it was a secret in the first place."







edit on 3-5-2012 by Murgatroid because: I felt like it..



reply posted on 3-5-2012 @ 06:18 PM by schuyler
There's a court case in my town right now about this. The circumstances: Elderly couple got in an argument. Both are heavy drinkers. There is a history of spousal abuse, probably on both sides. 79 year old wife is sitting in a recliner. 80 year old husband with documented mild dementia gets a gun and tells her, "Shoot me!" She tells him to put the gun away. He insists and eggs her on. Her hands are so arthritic she can't cock the gun, so he does it for her, holds the pistol in his right hand backwards and puts it against his forehead and says again, "Shoot me!" Suddenly there is a loud noise and he falls down over her. She calls her sons and calmly says she just shot her husband. She repeats it to a police officer. They do a shoddy investigation (since they have a confession) and off she goes to trial. Bear in mind the victim was angry. He wasn't pleading with her in the sense that he was suffering. This was an argument. Theory was he wanted to die because he was about to lose his driver's license because of increasing dementia and that he wanted to see his sons who never visited. Pretty weak speculation, but that's all we've got.

Now the defense says he shot himself. Evidence includes the lack of blood, in a straight line, on his left thumb and the pattern of blood on the floor. She was sitting in a recliner and he was looming over her. Defense maintains this proves he shot himself and she never pulled the trigger. The straight line was where his thumb was against the trigger guard. Experts can't really tell one way or another. They did not test to see if there was powder residue on her hands, but they did find it on his right hand, where blow-by from the shot leaked out from the cylinder (it was a .22 revolver)

Prosecution says she confessed and now conveniently "can't remember" what happened, though she appeared lucid at the time. Prosecutor also says, "Even though he gave her permission, that doesn't give her the right to pull the trigger."

That's the essence of it right there. Even though someone says, "Kill me!" that does not give you the right to do it. Of course, the issue is, did she?

Now let's see what the jury says. Closing arguments finished today. I'll subscribe and post the results.


reply posted on 4-5-2012 @ 12:28 PM by SaturnFX
reply to post by schuyler


I would like to think there is regulations, else we will find conveniently many people decided to suicide.
Regulations would be actually registering your suicide through a proper medium (be it a attorney, or state office, etc). This will also give time to have all parties truely consider the pros and cons of their decision, and make no question about what happened. It should be something dignified..and maybe even have councilers on hand to discuss with a person before they literally sign their life away (if not able to talk them out, then perhaps invite them to donate organs or something).


Incidently, the only argument I am hearing against the concept is...the state needs to enforce you not able to make a choice about your life because God doesn't like suicide.
Which, to an atheist is akin to hearing Santa Claus said no.


Jesus knew flat out, fully, that he was going to die in Jerusalem...no question about it...not a maybe, no chance of escape. His friends said...ok, then don't go, but he went anyhow.
Jesus committed suicide for his belief.
WWJD
Might be apples and oranges here, but the point is the same, if we take the story of christ as an example, he does show that choosing death is acceptable. And, their is only one unforgivable sin from what I understand, which is to blaspheme the holy spirit..everything else, You are forgiven if you accept it.


reply posted on 4-5-2012 @ 12:35 PM by SaturnFX
Incidentally, for those reading this whom are contemplating suicide, I will state again, don't do it.
I mean, you can if you wan't in my opinion, but things do (always do) get better.

That partner you were with that dumped you...pfft...don't give them the power by doing it...best vengence is finding another in time (when your ready) and being 10 times happier with that one than the former one.

That illness you got...well, get it treated...fight the reaper and see how it turns out..you decide on that one ultimately, but if there is a chance at all, then I say, what do you got to lose...become an inspiration with your fight to life verses giving up even though there was a chance you could have fought it.

No job/home/friends/etc. Bah, we both know thats temporary issues we can overcome...step by step, tomorrow you collect junk and find a scrapyard, the next day, you buy a wheelbarrel for more scrap, etc...a staircase to the highest floor is built one brick at a time..and everyone on the top floor always goes nostalgic for the steps they had to create. See obsticles as challenges and opportunities. Never surrender, even if you are chasing squirrels around for food, its just a moment in life, and not your whole life. Even if it lasts 20 years, work towards stepping out and up.

The argument here is should we be able to if we desire, not should we in general..in general, treasure life, no matter how rotten it is, its still more than many have had (dead at birth, young one cancer, or simply never existing). Every breath is not a right, its a gift, so understand that.


reply posted on 5-5-2012 @ 07:57 PM by schuyler
reply to post by schuyler


Regarding the case I detailed above, Darlene Green was just convicted of 1st degree manslaughter, acquitted of second degree murder. She's 81 and will be sentenced May 21st. This case is not a "pure" 'I want to die' case as there was a history of spousal abuse in the relationship and Mr. Green was angry when the incident happened, egging her on on to shoot him, placing the gun at his forehead, cocking the trigger, etc. But it does, once again, establish the issue that you don't have the right to kill somoene, even of they give you permission to do it.
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