Tibet on Fire...

reply to post by Jay-morris

You first made out that my links saying tibet was a hell hole
was from chinsse sources,

Which it was. Stuart and Roma Gelder were guests of the PRC. They were given a carefully guided tour, in which they were shown the same "chamber of horrors" relics as Anna Louise Strong, and were invited to interview carefully screened "victims" of Tibetan brutality. Christian visitors to pre-invasion Tibet were naturally shocked by the "oppression" of the people by a religious establishment that seemed to be a satanic parody of the Catholic church. (The earliest western visitor, a Jesuit, actually used those words.) Fortunately, your immediate source, Michael Parenti, was somewhat more balanced than your knee jerk accusations:

Chinese authorities claim to have put an end to floggings, mutilations, and amputations as a form of criminal punishment. They themselves, however, have been charged with acts of brutality by exile Tibetans. The authorities do admit to “mistakes,” particularly during the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution when the persecution of religious beliefs reached a high tide in both China and Tibet. After the uprising in the late 1950s, thousands of Tibetans were incarcerated. During the Great Leap Forward, forced collectivization and grain farming were imposed on the Tibetan peasantry, sometimes with disastrous effect on production. In the late 1970s, China began relaxing controls “and tried to undo some of the damage wrought during the previous two decades.”

[Edit for brevity. --DJW001]

In the 1990s, the Han, the ethnic group comprising over 95 percent of China’s immense population, began moving in substantial numbers into Tibet. On the streets of Lhasa and Shigatse, signs of Han colonization are readily visible. Chinese run the factories and many of the shops and vending stalls. Tall office buildings and large shopping centers have been built with funds that might have been better spent on water treatment plants and housing. Chinese cadres in Tibet too often view their Tibetan neighbors as backward and lazy, in need of economic development and “patriotic education.” During the 1990s Tibetan government employees suspected of harboring nationalist sympathies were purged from office, and campaigns were once again launched to discredit the Dalai Lama. Individual Tibetans reportedly were subjected to arrest, imprisonment, and forced labor for carrying out separatist activities and engaging in “political subversion.” Some were held in administrative detention without adequate food, water, and blankets, subjected to threats, beatings, and other mistreatment.

Tibetan history, culture, and certainly religion are slighted in schools. Teaching materials, though translated into Tibetan, focus mainly on Chinese history and culture....

Finally, let it be said that if Tibet’s future is to be positioned somewhere within China’s emerging free-market paradise, then this does not bode well for the Tibetans.....

Your source.

Did you know that Tibet was the first country to (officially) abolish capital punishment? Did you know that the illiteracy rate is still above 40%? All the Tibetan people are saying is let Tibet be Tibet. Shame on you for championing cultural imperialism.

reply to post by DJW001


I never said china is perfect. I have lived in china, and half my
family are chinese, so i know. Im not trying to make out that
that bad things did not happen after chinese rule, because they did.

All i am saying is tibet is more stable now. Has better schools, work,
hospitals etc. Tibet is what it is today because of china. Because of
the mony they pumped into tibet and the busineses.

Tibet will always be china now, so deal with it. Thats the truth of the
matter. Do you know how many people i have debated with who believing
that tibet was heaven in earth before chinese rule? And how many people
really believe that the lama is a good, peacful guy? All bs from the western
media.

I dont believe tibet would survive without china. And the tibet growth
over the years tells you that.

Im glad china took over tibet, be it for good intentions or not. Considering
how tibetans were treated under lama rule, it was inly a matter of time before
another country came along to stop all that suffering under fake buddism rule.

All the people shouting "free tibet" seriously dont have a clue!

reply to post by Jay-morris

All the people shouting "free tibet" seriously dont have a clue!

All?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

All the people shouting "free tibet" seriously dont have a clue!

All?

Ok, the ones i have come across, and there have been a few.

reply to post by Jay-morris

Ok, the ones i have come across, and there have been a few.

I humbly suggest you explore further. Leave your wife at home.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Ok, the ones i have come across, and there have been a few.

I humbly suggest you explore further. Leave your wife at home.

please explain what my wife has to do with this?

reply to post by Jay-morris

please explain what my wife has to do with this?

I'm sorry, I thought you said your wife was a Chinese film-maker. I have a feeling you would have a completely different outlook if she were Tibetan.

Originally posted by ManjushriPrajna
Unfortunately, most Americans don't care about this as it's not happening to Christians or Jews. If rabbis were burning themselves in protest of the Israeli government, you can damn well bet Americans would take notice.

The Tibetans are dying, by the gun and by fire, and most of these are holy men and women. They are our brothers and sisters. They are bound to peace and will not fight back.

The government of China needs to have their butts put on the fire for a while if we're ever going to free Tibet.

edit on 4-2-2012 by ManjushriPrajna because: (no reason given)

America doesn't give a crap about Christians. That is how they can turn a blind eye to the global persecution of Christians.

reply to post by 547000

America doesn't give a crap about Christians. That is how they can turn a blind eye to the global persecution of Christians.

The American government doesn't care about any persecuted group. That's not their job. If you have a favorite persecuted group you want to help, you are free to do everything you can. Make donations to charities that help this group. Boycott their persecutors. Educate the public. Assist them in emigrating. Join a resistance group. Don't expect any government to do it for you.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

please explain what my wife has to do with this?

I'm sorry, I thought you said your wife was a Chinese film-maker. I have a feeling you would have a completely different outlook if she were Tibetan.

So, because my wife is chinese, and used to be a film maker,
you think this is the reason i have these views, and nothing
to do with the evidence i have posted. How do you know how
my wife feels and thinks? Are you one of these people who like
to label a country as a collective, that they all think and feel the
same way?

I havee posted evidence that tibet as a complete hell hole. I posted
evidence that the lama is a lair and not as peacful as he makes out. I
have posted how the western media mentions nothing about the hell
hole tibet was under lama rule, involving slavery, torture and starvation.

Why is it that most i debate with suddenly leave the consversation when
i bring this up? Its because they have gotten all their information from
western media.

reply to post by Jay-morris

Why is it that most i debate with suddenly leave the consversation when
i bring this up? Its because they have gotten all their information from
western media.

No, it's because you're taking the side of a country that invaded another without provocation, then trying to justify it post-facto by vilifying the victims. China did not invade Tibet because it was a hellhole. They invaded it because it served their military strategy. You cite accounts given by people who were "guests" of the Chinese conquerors, and likely to be biased or given false information. You act as though no member of the Chinese government has ever been corrupt, punished someone mercilessly with little provocation or taken a concubine. You make a fine distinction between feudal serfdom and forced labor. You ignore the obvious cultural imperialism of China teaching Tibetans only Chinese history. Then, when someone says they never said Tibet was perfect you keep going on as though they had.

reply to post by DJW001


Do you read! I said that china wss not perfect, far from it. Remember,
i lived in china for two years, and travelled china. I have seen the good
and the bad myself, just like most other countries. And stop saying the
information is from people whi are pro china! When clearly it is not.

So, are you telling me that china should have left them
to it? Are you telling me that china going ibto tibet, for
the people or not, was bad? You think inslaving, starving
torturing their own people was right under buddism?

What do you think of the lama?

reply to post by Jay-morris

So, are you telling me that china should have left them
to it? Are you telling me that china going ibto tibet, for
the people or not, was bad? You think inslaving, starving
torturing their own people was right under buddism?

China enslaves, tortures and, most infamously, starved its own people. Are you suggesting that there is a moral imperative for the United States to invade China and erase its cultural heritage? Make some popcorn and snuggle up.



Do you think that tank driver would have swerved if "Tank Boy" were Tibetan? Why are Tibetans willing to die, and the Chinese authorities slow to stop them? Communism is a religion. Marx is its prophet, Lenin its saint and Mao its messiah. Discuss.

What do you think of the lama?

Which Lama?

reply to post by DJW001


My wife was not enslaved, starving or tortured, and she knows no one personaly who was. My wife comes from a poor part if china, near the border of north korea and russia. Though poor, they always had aroof over theirheads, food etc.

Unless you have been to china, like me, and seen things with your own eyes, then if course you are going to believe the bs propaganda that cones from the west.

I remember having a debate with someone on here who belived that there was not many westerners living in china, which again, is bs. And i see many stupid comments like this, esp on forums like this.


I never said china was perfect, but you look at china 25 years ago, and china now, there is a huge difference. Yes, there are many things the chinese government do that i completly disagree with, but then again,i disagree with certain goverments who start pointless wars in the middle east that kill thousands of people.

Communist countries are bad, but non communist countries are bad too. They are all the same in my eyes and its these governments that brainwash the people to hate one or the other. Its sad, but thats the way it is.

Like i said before, im glad china came along and stopped the brutal things that were happening in
Tibet. Has china made mistakes in tibet, yes they
have. No one is denying that.

What i find worrying is the fact that alot of tibetan
People want the lama back from exile. This is a
Person who lived like a king and ignored all the disgusting things that were happening.Oh, he had slaves too.

Tibet is always going to be with china now. No matter how many times you shout "free tibet" You
might not want to believe it, but people in tibet live 100 times better than they did under lama rule.

And i am talking about the lama who spends his time travelling first class and staying in 5 star hotels and having people suck up to him as if he is some sort of God. What do you think of him?

reply to post by Jay-morris

Tibet is always going to be with china

China can't even be sure that Shanghai will always be with China. Wake up.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Tibet is always going to be with china

China can't even be sure that Shanghai will always be with China. Wake up.

Lol what are you talking about!

Still cant answer what you think about the lama?

reply to post by Jay-morris

Lol what are you talking about!

Do I need to explain the Chinese economy to you as well as its history? All of China's wealth is centered on the coastal cities. All of them have stronger ties with foreign powers than they do with the Chinese interior. Why should the Shanghainese, who are known for being ambitious, allow Beijing to tax them so they can pay for lazy Tibetans. If the coastal cities think they are better off as independent city states, there are powerful trading partners who might be willing to back them up. The Chinese leadership is aware of this; it's happened before.

Still cant answer what you think about the lama?

Again, which lama? There are hundreds of them, you know.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Lol what are you talking about!

Do I need to explain the Chinese economy to you as well as its history? All of China's wealth is centered on the coastal cities. All of them have stronger ties with foreign powers than they do with the Chinese interior. Why should the Shanghainese, who are known for being ambitious, allow Beijing to tax them so they can pay for lazy Tibetans. If the coastal cities think they are better off as independent city states, there are powerful trading partners who might be willing to back them up. The Chinese leadership is aware of this; it's happened before.

Still cant answer what you think about the lama?

Again, which lama? There are hundreds of them, you know.

edit on 11-2-2012 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)

Have not heard anything so stupid in my life! Lol So lets say new york
is doing better than the other cities, would you expect new york to want
to break away! lol China are a very proud race, and all they want is china
to be strong, and thats one of the reasons that there is a good chance china
will be the next superpower.

You know what lama i am talking about lol The 14th Dalai Lama. What do
you think of him?

Had to pop this one in there too lol

reply to post by Jay-morris

Have not heard anything so stupid in my life! Lol So lets say new york
is doing better than the other cities, would you expect new york to want
to break away!

You don't follow American politics either, do you? One of the current Presidential hopefuls wanted Texas to secede from the Union. These things happen.

lol China are a very proud race,

Positively chauvinistic, in fact. They considered themselves to be the only civilized nation, the Middle Kingdom. They looked down on Mongolians and Tibetans as barbarians. They still do.

and all they want is china
to be strong, and thats one of the reasons that there is a good chance china
will be the next superpower.

By invading helpless countries like Tibet they are certainly making their intentions clear. Of course, that sort of behavior is only evil if the US does it.

You know what lama i am talking about lol The 14th Dalai Lama. What do
you think of him?

I have never met him, so I can't comment on his personal life. He does strike me, however, as having many of the same qualities that certain other religious leaders had. Like John Paul II and Mohandas Ghandi, he is a spiritual man who has a strong belief in the destiny of his nation. Like any effective leader, he has mastered the political skills necessary to make that vision come true without sacrificing his core beliefs. Both he and John Paull II take an ecumenical position that uses religion to bring peoples together rather drive them apart. Likewise, they knew they might have to deal with people whose goals are purely material, like the CIA. In part, Poland was freed from the yoke of Communism by John Paul II's leadership. Poland is once again a free country. Soon, Tibet will be, too.