Tibet on Fire...

reply to post by Jay-morris


I hope you see the irony of posting a video from tibet.cn. You might want to do a little research into the Dorje Shugden controversy.

Originally posted by Jay-morris
reply to post by quedup

 

Sigh!

Do you know my wife, how she thinks and what
she feels, are you that great! Actually, my wife iften complains
about the chinese government, like many chinese do.
Have you ever been to china and talked to some of the chinese
people. Ir do you get all your news from the western bs media?

Tianneman Square is generally all we need to know about Communist China, but Google helping them filter the Internet also works very well at getting an informed opinion, especially when Google was taken to task for turning over to the Chinese govt data on a dissident who landed in jail for it. Google was hauled into a Congressional hearing on it.
I love the real Chinese culture before communism ruined it.

reply to post by Jay-morris

Tibet will always be china now, so deal with it.

How would you know that? Things change all the time. I hope it will not always be China. Tibet should always be Tibet. Do you know something about it the rest of us do not?

reply to post by Jay-morris


You really bash the holy Monks of Tibet. I have met some of the dearest, most pure monks. I'm sure you have no idea of the purity of their hearts. You are making judgements on people based on some kind of creepy communist propaganda.

Firstly, to use the word genocide the describe the actions of the Chinese, demonstrates a lack of understanding of the crime of Genocide, as defined by the CPPCG.

Once could understand that the Chinese 'liberated' the Tibetans, just like the Vietnamese ended the occupation of the Pol Pot regime.

For some reason the west has this romantic notion of what Tibet was like under a theocracy. It was brutal and violent. This is a Chinese internal matter, not for us to be involved in.

reply to post by DJW001

You don't follow American politics either, do you? One of the current Presidential hopefuls wanted Texas to secede from the Union. These things happen.

There is a difference in sme people saying they want it to happen, and it to actually happen.

Positively chauvinistic, in fact. They considered themselves to be the only civilized nation, the Middle Kingdom. They looked down on Mongolians and Tibetans as barbarians. They still do.

Really? have you been to china and spoken to the chnese people, and this is how you came to this conclusion?While i have spoke to many chinese people, i have never come across any with these views. In fact, the chinese seem to love anthing western. Just go into Beijing city centre and you see the western influence. Please post were you heard chinese people say this?

By invading helpless countries like Tibet they are certainly making their intentions clear. Of course, that sort of behavior is only evil if the US does it.

Who was helpless, the country or its people? You seem to think its alright for people to live like this under a horrible rule. You also seem to forget that tibet now has schools, hospitals, universities, airport train into tibet. All this helps the tibetan people, and history does not lie by the way.

I have never met him, so I can't comment on his personal life. He does strike me, however, as having many of the same qualities that certain other religious leaders had. Like John Paul II and Mohandas Ghandi, he is a spiritual man who has a strong belief in the destiny of his nation. Like any effective leader, he has mastered the political skills necessary to make that vision come true without sacrificing his core beliefs. Both he and John Paull II take an ecumenical position that uses religion to bring peoples together rather drive them apart. Likewise, they knew they might have to deal with people whose goals are purely material, like the CIA. In part, Poland was freed from the yoke of Communism by John Paul II's leadership. Poland is once again a free country. Soon, Tibet will be, too.

This is the sort of answer i expected from you. You are a sucker for western propaganda Evem when it clealy shows that he is not what he says he is, you refuse to believe it and still see him as this peacful person who is non violent. You have ignored all the evidence i have posted, which clealy shows you are brainwashed by western media propaganda.

Is it because its cool to say "free tibet" and cool to like the lama? This coolness out weighs the truth about tibet? Thats really sad

I hope you see the irony of posting a video from tibet.cn. You might want to do a little research into the Dorje Shugden controversy.

.

I find it funny that you ignore all my evidence, but when i post one chinese video, you jump on it lol So typical

Tianneman Square is generally all we need to know about Communist China, but Google helping them filter the Internet also works very well at getting an informed opinion, especially when Google was taken to task for turning over to the Chinese govt data on a dissident who landed in jail for it. Google was hauled into a Congressional hearing on it. I love the real Chinese culture before communism ruined it.

Oh here we go! Tianneman square was not good, we all know that, but china has changed alot since then. Also, i we always going to be saying how bad america and England are, and other western countries for all the murders and killings that happened in Iraq?

How would you know that? Things change all the time. I hope it will not always be China. Tibet should always be Tibet. Do you know something about it the rest of us do not?

What, you saying that tibet should go back to enslaving, torturing and starving its people, while the holy men live like kinds. Is that what you are saying?

You really bash the holy Monks of Tibet. I have met some of the dearest, most pure monks. I'm sure you have no idea of the purity of their hearts. You are making judgements on people based on some kind of creepy communist propaganda.

I dont bash holy monks of tibet. I bash the holy men who tortured, unslaved and starved its people before chinese rule, including the lama. You clearly know nothing about real tTibet. And its not creepy communist propaganda, its real history from sources outside of china.

I believe buddism is a peacful religon, but real buddism had nothing to do with tibet before chinese rule, uless you believe buddism allows murder,torture, slavery, and starvation

reply to post by Jay-morris


Thank you for replying to everyone who disagrees with your opinion. Every time you do, this thread bounces back to the top of the "Recent Posts" page, reminding people that the Tibetan people are so oppressed by the Chinese that they are willing to set themselves on fire.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Thank you for replying to everyone who disagrees with your opinion. Every time you do, this thread bounces back to the top of the "Recent Posts" page, reminding people that the Tibetan people are so oppressed by the Chinese that they are willing to set themselves on fire.

And thank you for admiting that you like a person who stood by and watched his people murdered,tortured,unslaved and staved. Bet you feel so proud.! You have failed to answer the points, and the evidence that i have posted. You blindly believe what the western media and governments say, and thats really sad that you can't think for yourself. You have jumped onto the "free tibet" bandwagon, ignorant to the real history of tibet before chinese rule.

Let me ask you something. Was the tibet people "free" before chinese rule? Can you answer that question without feeling like you are betraying the "free tibet" movement?

reply to post by Jay-morris


In the Chinese propaganda video you posted, they claimed that the Dalai Lama led an armed resistance. He did not. He was their figurehead. His brothers were involved, and they took money from the CIA. Why shouldn't they? Doesn't the Chinese government give money to "freedom fighters" when it serves their purpose? The propaganda video claims that the Dalai Lama does not want a democratic system, but wants to restore the old theocracy. Nowhere do they provide a quote from the Dalai Lama himself to support that claim. On the other hand:

Amidst the Tibetan people’s annual commemoration of the 1959 Tibetan National Uprising against the Chinese Communist occupation of Tibet, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has proclaimed a victory for Tibetan democracy by announcing his desire for the full devolution of his responsibilities in the Tibetan exile government to the elected Tibetan leader or Kalon Tripa.

“As early as the 1960’s, I have repeatedly stressed that Tibetans need a leader, elected freely by the Tibetan people to whom I can devolve power. Now we have clearly reached the time to put this into effect.”

www.savetibet.org...

The Chinese propaganda slurs him personally by claiming that his chastity is a sham. It then shows news articles about the misconduct of other Tibetan religious figures, some of whom are not even members of the Dalai Lama's order. He is not responsible for their actions. Even in the feudal era, his authority was nominal, not real. The propaganda film shows antique maps to "prove" Tibet didn't really exist historically. I actually laughed out loud during that sequence. How many of those mapmakers had actually visited the lands they were portraying? Tibet's independent status is a matter of historical fact. It showed some black and white photographs taken by the Chinese to justify their actions. As far as I can tell, it was they who flayed the children. It also does some bogus math by claiming that the population of Tibet was 1.2 million before the invasion. There is a huge difference between the number of people living inside Tibet's political borders and the number of Tibetans. Ethnically Tibetan people lived all over the Tibetan plateau, and may well have been more numerous outside of Tibet proper.

Anyway, you seem to think that videos are a good source for information:

reply to post by Jay-morris

Let me ask you something. Was the tibet people "free" before chinese rule? Can you answer that question without feeling like you are betraying the "free tibet" movement?

Do you feel that you are truly free now?

Its funny that you mention that it was his brothers who were involved. The same people who tortured, killed, inslaved, and starved its people, then you have the nerve to say that they were given the money to fight for their freedom. There freedom was to live like kings while the rest of the tibetan people suffered. And you think thats right? And you think that makes sense? You really think the american government wanted to help the people, and had nothing to do with stiring things up with china. Oh and documents prove that the dalia lama was on the cia payrole.


Its becoming quite clear that you know little about tibet, and only know what the propaganda machina tells you. If you think everyone thinks tibet is not part of china, or should not be part of of china, then read this.
en.m.wikipedia.org...


funny how say i posted a propaganda video, then you go and post one yourself. I see whoever made that video only used footage of the chinese police hitting and beating the rioters. He did not show the tibetans beating killing looting the Rioters attacking Hanand Hui passers-by and burning down Han- or Hui-owned shops.
en.m.wikipedia.org...


So, what did you expect the chinese to do. Let these tibetans use violence , attacking non tibetans, burning and looting shops? You think they should have let these thugs attack them too?

Its clear that you dont have a clue about what happened at the tibet 2008 riots. You just posted some video showinv one side. Why dont you browse youtube and watch the videos of the families that lost loved ones to the rioters, not the chinese police, but the rioters!

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Let me ask you something. Was the tibet people "free" before chinese rule? Can you answer that question without feeling like you are betraying the "free tibet" movement?

Do you feel that you are truly free now?

See, you answer a question with a question. No one is truely free.
So what you saying? Are you telling me that the tibetan people were
more free under lama rule? If you are, then you are completly clueless.

Here is an article from skeptoid which pretty much
sums it up for me. As this thread has shown, so many people just don't
have a clue. They would rather believe the fantasy, and ignore the questions
raised by others. Its a sad world we live in when people are willing to ignore
facts. They would rather believe western propaganda.

Ask yourself this. Why does the western media lie about tibet?
Why dont they ever bring up the horrible truth about tibet under
lama rule? Why do they always make out that tibetwas a peacful
place under lama rule. And why dont they bring up the fact that
the delia lama was in charge of all this violence towards the tibetan
people?


You really think this was buddism? Do you think that western propaganda
is more important than buddism? Real buddism.

Most of you "free tibet" people get all your informafion from the western
propaganda machine, hence the reason alot of you dont have a clue about
tibet, and are just jumping on the "free tibet" band wagon.

I remember sharon stone said that the chinese earthquake, that killed thousands
of chinese people, and killed many children, was karma for what china has done
to tibet. this is the level of buddism knowledge these people have, and just goes
to prove my point. If she and other people think thats what buddism is, then that
just shiws how clueless they are.

reply to post by Jay-morris

Its becoming quite clear that you know little about tibet, and only know what the propaganda machina tells you. If you think everyone thinks tibet is not part of china, or should not be part of of china, then read this.

And it is clear you know absolutely nothing about Chinese history. As for Tibetan history, read your own source:

During the Tang Dynasty of China, Tibet and China frequently warred. Parts of Tibet were temporarily captured by the Chinese and became territories of the Tang dynasty (618–907 AD).[90] Around 650, the Chinese even captured Lhasa.[91][92][93][93] In 763, Tibet reversed this situation and briefly took the Chinese capital of Chang'an [90] during the Chinese Tang civil war.

Most scholars outside the PRC say that during the Ming Dynasty (1368–1644), Tibet was de facto independent while Ming nominal suzerainty remained.[94]...

In January 1993, in London, a conference gathered 30 eminent international lawyers from many countries to consider issues of the right of self-determination of the Tibetan people. At the issue of their work, the participants concluded in a written statement that:[136]

under international law the Tibetan people are entitled to the right to self-determination, that this right belongs to the Tibetan people and that it is not for the state apparatus of the PRC, or any other nation or state, to deny the Tibetan people's right to self-determination.
since the military action of 1949-50, Tibet has been under the alien occupation and domination of the PRC and has been administered with the characteristics of an oppressive colonial administration.
in the particular case of Tibet and having regard to its long history of separate existence, the Tibetan people's claim to self-determination, including independence, is compatible with the principles of national unity and territorial integrity of states.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Jay-morris

Here is an article from skeptoid which pretty much
sums it up for me. As this thread has shown, so many people just don't
have a clue. They would rather believe the fantasy, and ignore the questions
raised by others. Its a sad world we live in when people are willing to ignore
facts. They would rather believe western propaganda.

Why do you keep acting as though I claim that life was perfect in Tibet before China's illegal invasion? It was a feudal society. Does that justify an illegal invasion? Life under Saddam Hussein wasn't so great, now it's a democracy. I assume you support the American invasion for the same reason you support the Chinese.

Ask yourself this. Why does the western media lie about tibet?
Why dont they ever bring up the horrible truth about tibet under
lama rule? Why do they always make out that tibetwas a peacful
place under lama rule. And why dont they bring up the fact that
the delia lama was in charge of all this violence towards the tibetan
people?

Ask yourself this: why does the Chinese media lie about Tibet? Why don't they ever point out that their invasion was illegal? Why don't they talk about the atrocities committed by Chinese troops? Why don't they talk about Han racism?

You really think this was buddism? Do you think that western propaganda
is more important than buddism? Real buddism.

It had nothing to do with Buddhism, any more than feudalism in Europe had to do with the teachings of Jesus. The irony is that, thanks to the Chinese, Buddhism is being spread to the West.

Most of you "free tibet" people get all your informafion from the western
propaganda machine, hence the reason alot of you dont have a clue about
tibet, and are just jumping on the "free tibet" band wagon.

You keep making that ridiculous generalization. Time and again I have shown my familiarity with the situation, and time and again you have ignored the facts I present. It is you who have accepted a line of propaganda. By the way, read up on the Taiping Rebellion. Maybe then you will start to understand why it is in the best interests of Beijing to let Tibet go now, peacefully.

reply to post by DJW001


reply to post by DJW001

And it is clear you know absolutely nothing about Chinese history. As for Tibetan history, read your own source:

Lol i know more about chinese history than you, that I'm
100% sure about. I posted that link to show you that many
people see arguments on both sides, and then you quote
part of it for your argument lol. Just like when you post a
video only showing the chinese police attacking tibetans
and not the videos showing tibetan rioters violence

Why do you keep acting as though I claim that life was perfect in Tibet before China's illegal invasion? It was a feudal society. Does that justify an illegal invasion? Life under Saddam Hussein wasn't so great, now it's a democracy. I assume you support the American invasion for the same reason you support the Chinese.

Hang on a min! When i first posted linking showing how bad
tibet was before chinese rule, you said it was chibese propaganda.
Then suddenly after more links, you changed your mind and said
it was not great. I belive you had no clue what tibet was like before
chinese rule, and most prob believed all the bs the west was saying.
And how the hell you can out iraq in the same league as tibet pre china
is beyond me. Were most of the iraq people slaves and starving?

And for the record, i dont agree with the iraq war, which funny enough,
was illegal. Have you looked at the state of iraq lately?

Ask yourself this: why does the Chinese media lie about Tibet? Why don't they ever point out that their invasion was illegal? Why don't they talk about the atrocities committed by Chinese troops? Why don't they talk about Han racism? 

Why are you sayibg that when some historians belive that tibet is part
of china, and some dont. Its all in that wiki link i gave you. I never said
have been perfect, i have stated that many times on this thread, but like
the video you posted shiwibg the riots and the troops hitting the tibetan
rioters, nowhere in that video does it mention the killings and beatings
towards non tibetans, and the attacks on the police. You think thats right?

It had nothing to do with Buddhism, any more than feudalism in Europe had to do with the teachings of Jesus. The irony is that, thanks to the Chinese, Buddhism is being spread to the West. 

Oh come on! Its about buddhism! You have the delia lama going around making his voice heard. You have clueless celebs who follow him shout free tibet! Not know, or turning a blind eye and him and tibet before.chinese rule. Why is it that so many people believe that tibet was a heaven on earth? Of course they are going to raise their voice for the peaceful religon. But this religon was nit peaceful under lama rule. It was a disgusting, horrible place that used buddhism to enslave, starve. torture, and kill many of the tibetans, and all under the delia lama rule!

You keep making that ridiculous generalization. Time and again I have shown my familiarity with the situation, and time and again you have ignored the facts I present. It is you who have accepted a line of propaganda. By the way, read up on the Taiping Rebellion. Maybe then you will start to understand why it is in the best interests of Beijing to let Tibet go now, peacefully.

LOL you are joking right?, or just plain ignorant! Everything you have said, i have replied. Go look at our posts. It is you who has ignored some of the things i have said. Ok i will give yoh one example. The video you posted showing how bad china is beating tibetans. When i replied about how these tibetans were looting, beating, killing, and burning shops, you just ignored it! You ignored ghe evidence i posted about how tibet has better hospitals, schools, improved growgh every year etc,So dont say i am the one ignoring you posts when its the other way round. If i didnt reply to some of your posts, please tell me, and i will.

As for taiping rebellion lol You think that all tibetans are not happy lol Just another myth im afraid. And you really think tibet could rise up against china lol

Will the truth abiut the delia lama ever come to light?
Truth is, it already has, but people choose to ignore it,
or believe the western propaganda bs, which is there
for everyobe to see.

reply to post by Jay-morris

As for taiping rebellion lol You think that all tibetans are not happy lol Just another myth im afraid. And you really think tibet could rise up against china lol

You have no idea about the Taiping Rebellion, do you? How can China hope to hold onto Tibet if it can't even hold on to ethnically Chinese provinces?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

As for taiping rebellion lol You think that all tibetans are not happy lol Just another myth im afraid. And you really think tibet could rise up against china lol

You have no idea about the Taiping Rebellion, do you? How can China hope to hold onto Tibet if it can't even hold on to ethnically Chinese provinces?

You are talking about something that happend in 1850! A
complete differnt china to the china today. Yes, of course
it could happen again, but then with that logic, another american
civil war, that just so happend in 1851.

reply to post by Jay-morris

You are talking about something that happend in 1850! A
complete differnt china to the china today. Yes, of course
it could happen again, but then with that logic, another american
civil war, that just so happend in 1851.

Yes, a completely different China. All the trade went through powerful cities on the coast, while the interior was impoverished and agrarian. Beijing was supposedly the center of the government, but the provinces were ruled by corrupt officials. Completely different.