Was Lucifer just crazy or was his actions justified

So i have grown up catholic and had catholic views on Lucifer. I remember being six or so talking to some neighbor girl about Lucifer, and we where standing next to a metal fence post. And as she was telling all about the devil and his evil ways i shouted down the pole something along the lines " i hate you devil" lol, and she quickly rebuked me and said he likes that so in turn i shouted i loved him. thinking maybe he would hate it. idk

but that was my beginnings in understanding Lucifer. Then comes Sunday, my dad signed my brother and i to a protestant sunday school. Now in no way where we protestant but i think he thought it was a good thing for us to learn more about. We went and i enjoyed most of it but i think we only went for a year.

flash forward 15 years and i hadnt went to church since my last encounter with the protestants, well maybe here and there but not enough to justify my thoughts on Lucifer. I just didnt get him. Why would he want to steal God's throne when he was on the right hand of god, And this angry god just kicks him outta heaven with all his angel followers. Im like i still dont get it. I understand it but dont get it. That was my story till i found other books on spirituality. Which eventually lead me to read the entire bible, the the Torah, as well as the Koran, some vedic text but they were hard to follow at the time.

Then i moved on to the new age stuff, not because its was and is a trend but because out of all the text ive read up to that point, no of it made sense. everyone's literature was ether contradicting itself or to a point was saying the same thing the other text said. so i read book after book on new age spirituality. And alot of it makes sense and would fill in the voids here and there, untill about 5 years ago i came into contact with THE URANTIA BOOK.
Wow i was amazed at how much this book contained.

Then to my further amazement i found i few chapters on Lucifer and his rebellion, and for my it filled in every single blank i had. It reads in clear precise words and dosnt leave holes. So after reading the text on his rebellion i came to the conclusion that most of what i know about Lucifer through religion was not exactly precise but they had the jist of it.

so was Lucifer actions justified, after reading the urantia material i was a little confused on how to go about this.
They speak about his fall, why he fell and what he was doing while trying to spread his word among his kind.

Which was and this is from the urantia book ive only included it for discussion.

The Lucifer Rebellion (601.1) 53:0.1 LUCIFER was a brilliant primary Lanonandek Son of Nebadon. He had experienced service in many systems, had been a high counselor of his group, and was distinguished for wisdom, sagacity, and efficiency. Lucifer was number 37 of his order, and when commissioned by the Melchizedeks, he was designated as one of the one hundred most able and brilliant personalities in more than seven hundred thousand of his kind. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and now is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty — rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.

(601.2) 53:0.2 In the universe of Nebadon, the domain of Christ Michael, there are ten thousand systems of inhabited worlds. In all the history of Lanonandek Sons, in all their work throughout these thousands of systems and at the universe headquarters, only three System Sovereigns have ever been found in contempt of the government of the Creator Son.

Did you read that last part, (only three System Sovereigns have ever been found in contempt of the government of the Creator Son.) Which means Lucifer wasnt the only angel to rebel, there where others. And now we move on to the causes of the rebellion.

(602.4) 53:2.1 Lucifer and his first assistant, Satan, had reigned on Jerusem for more than five hundred thousand years when in their hearts they began to array themselves against the Universal Father and his then vicegerent Son, Michael.

(602.5) 53:2.2 There were no peculiar or special conditions in the system of Satania which suggested or favored rebellion. It is our belief that the idea took origin and form in Lucifer’s mind, and that he might have instigated such a rebellion no matter where he might have been stationed. Lucifer first announced his plans to Satan, but it required several months to corrupt the mind of his able and brilliant associate. However, when once converted to the rebel theories, he became a bold and earnest advocate of “self-assertion and liberty.”

(602.6) 53:2.3 No one ever suggested rebellion to Lucifer. The idea of self-assertion in opposition to the will of Michael and to the plans of the Universal Father, as they are represented in Michael, had its origin in his own mind. His relations with the Creator Son had been intimate and always cordial. At no time prior to the exaltation of his own mind did Lucifer openly express dissatisfaction about the universe administration. Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.

(602.7) 53:2.4 Throughout this period Lucifer became increasingly critical of the entire plan of universe administration but always professed wholehearted loyalty to the Supreme Rulers. His first outspoken disloyalty was manifested on the occasion of a visit of Gabriel to Jerusem just a few days before the open proclamation of the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. Gabriel was so profoundly impressed with the certainty of the impending outbreak that he went direct to Edentia to confer with the Constellation Fathers regarding the measures to be employed in case of open rebellion.

(603.1) 53:2.5 It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Lucifer rebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer’s mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the Constellation Fathers, in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain.

You are Lucifer because you have been cast down to the earth. Yes humans are a self deception and yes we think we put animals in zoo's for the good of the earth lol and this applies to everything we do. Do you think you're crazy?

And now on to Lucifer's manifesto, who knew he had one right! but here it is all taken the the urantia book:

(603.2) 53:3.1 Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:

(603.3) 53:3.2 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father’s name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father’s actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel’s proposals.

(603.4) 53:3.3 2. The universe government of the Creator Son — Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.

(603.5) 53:3.4 Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days — “foreign potentates” — to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights.

(603.6) 53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.

(604.1) 53:3.6 3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit.

(604.2) 53:3.7 And it was with such a Declaration of Liberty that Lucifer launched his orgy of darkness and death.

So what does this have to say about him now, do you still feel the same way. Apparently according to the urantia book God is even unknown to his angels. A high order of angels called "The Ancients of Days" presides over all matters in the universe of universes. huh why would God not be known to his angels. that was Lucifers #1 problem is that he felt these ancient of days made God up and fostered his existence so they could be in charge.
And he also had problems with mortal ascension and the amount of time wasted on it.

Im thinking didnt Jesus preach mercy, forgiveness, And most of all brotherly love. Why would this not apply to lucifer. And if they choose to punish him what does that say about God, the one thats all about Love. Shouldnt God forgive him, idk but i would like to hear some of your feedback about this.

reply to post by Haites


The story of Lucifers rebellion sounds like...

Politics.

Religion...Political ideology.

hmmmm

Could be a correlation there, ya think?

Looks like a interesting book.
Got to admit, due to not understanding the referencing points, I am a little lost...but from what I am reading, if we take away all the fancy names, we are talking about just another race of beings, much like us.

Some sort of galactic (or intergalactic) federation of civilizations, and typical politics at play.

Lucifer decided to rebel against the system because he found it a bit pointless overall...and instead was a fan of self determination.

Sounds plausible. sure. Not sure why the terms "evil" and "darkness" was tossed in there however...its really a perspective thing. Some find the whole rebel against the imperial order to be a good thing..however, its not really us humans whom rebelled...its more like some up the chain rebellon and us peon humans are just an insignificant factor, happening to be simply in the area where the --- hit the fan so to speak.

Its a interesting new perspective...but doesn't really make the waters less muddy.

In regards to the mythos of lucifer in a more contemporary setting though (the accepted norm).
I don't understand the "hate" towards lucifer.
What gives a human the right to hate someone they don't even know...God, the creator, is all merciful and all loving. The average religious person is supposed to love all of gods creation (not meaning give hugs to bears type love mind you). Lucifer, fallen angles, etc...all of that is part of gods creation..and it is not ours to hate (and therefore feed the darkness of) anything we label evil.

I wonder what a priest would say if you told them you prayed to lucifer that he may find the wisdom and love to beg for gods forgivness and return. what a interesting dilemma that would be for a priest to answer.

Anyhow, I like the space star wars version you bring up. I might try to track down a old book store to add that to my collection. Its time the mythos received some modern twists.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Haites

 

The story of Lucifers rebellion sounds like...

Politics.

Religion...Political ideology.

hmmmm

Could be a correlation there, ya think?

One thing for sure...you will always root for the team that has the best propaganda machine.
If we consider actions only, we are almost certainly rooting for the "bad guy" by backing this god guy...again, if actions alone speak and no philosophy enters the system.
Lucifer's body count is very very low to the native humans...

So, are the mainstream religions of earth based on wisdom or propaganda...

reply to post by SaturnFX


That is why I vote for the guy/gal who's actions match their rhetoric. I have voted across the board using this method.

I don't care what they say...I care what they actually do.

Sadly, many people buy into the propaganda.

Something I never quite understood about the Christian religion. The devil is smart, he knows what's going to happen to him eventually, so why does he not just accept Jesus as his savior, be forgiven, and be accepted back into Heaven?

When the Authors were writing the bibles in different countries they weren't just making the story up as they went along, they were actually remembering what happened before we came to planet earth. This is why most of the stories have turned out similar, It all makes sense now.

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
Something I never quite understood about the Christian religion. The devil is smart, he knows what's going to happen to him eventually, so why does he not just accept Jesus as his savior, be forgiven, and be accepted back into Heaven?

Why would he accept jesus as his savior?
Jesus is mankind's savior, not everyone's (theoretically).
He was here to sort of put in check the original sin. Lucifer, angels, etc..are not part of that as they did not disobey god and eat/knowledge/etc.

So, theoretically, they only need ask forgivness from the source itself and they are good...well, they might have to atone and have their own sort of chain to follow to get back, but point is, Jesus was for mankind, not the universe...no, your dog doesn't have to accept christ to get to heaven..just a human


As far as the question though...sounds like more propaganda. How come he fights if he knows the outcome? Well, absolutely correct. If the outcome is certain, then only the truely insane would fight anyhow...which means one of two things. Either Lucifer is absolutely off the chain mad, or what is taught to us is a lie and there is no per-determination toward the end result.

Consider wartime. You think America runs ads about how we may be defeated in a certain war, but join anyhow? naa...even if we are taking an ass kicking, we still demand we will win, the game is pretty much over, just the details now...so join in the army and be there for the moment we claim victory, etc...

What I don't get about "Lucifer" is why people still talk about "it" at all? Hasn't this subject already been beaten to death, the truth that Lucifer was a Roman name given to Venus (the morning star). In ancient Greece, the language of the original NT, Lucifer was the latin name given as a translation to Phosphoros (light-bearer). The funny thing is, the name only appears once, but it was incorrectly added (not translated, but added) to Isaiah 14:12 — but only in the King James and related versions:

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . .”

The problem is, this passage was originally about a fallen Babylonian King, not a fallen angel, and the king isn't even named in the original texts. So Christian scribes added a name (Phosphoros, later changed to Lucifer) to this verse and it completely changed the context of what was intended.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
Something I never quite understood about the Christian religion. The devil is smart, he knows what's going to happen to him eventually, so why does he not just accept Jesus as his savior, be forgiven, and be accepted back into Heaven?

Why would he accept jesus as his savior?
Jesus is mankind's savior, not everyone's (theoretically).
He was here to sort of put in check the original sin. Lucifer, angels, etc..are not part of that as they did not disobey god and eat/knowledge/etc.

So, theoretically, they only need ask forgivness from the source itself and they are good...well, they might have to atone and have their own sort of chain to follow to get back, but point is, Jesus was for mankind, not the universe...no, your dog doesn't have to accept christ to get to heaven..just a human


As far as the question though...sounds like more propaganda. How come he fights if he knows the outcome? Well, absolutely correct. If the outcome is certain, then only the truely insane would fight anyhow...which means one of two things. Either Lucifer is absolutely off the chain mad, or what is taught to us is a lie and there is no per-determination toward the end result.

Consider wartime. You think America runs ads about how we may be defeated in a certain war, but join anyhow? naa...even if we are taking an ass kicking, we still demand we will win, the game is pretty much over, just the details now...so join in the army and be there for the moment we claim victory, etc...

i agree with this

So, theoretically, they only need ask forgivness from the source itself and they are good...well, they might have to atone and have their own sort of chain to follow to get back, but point is, Jesus was for mankind, not the universe...no, your dog doesn't have to accept christ to get to heaven..just a human

Also the urantia book says Jesus came to earth because of the Lucifer rebellion, the fall of our planetary prince,as well as the fall of adam and eve.

he didnt come to erase our sin he came to make things right on this planet, because of the confusion the world faced from the rebellion.

he tried in one human life to make right what was made wrong that took hundreds of thousands of years to take place.

Jesus tried to show us the true path to the light, because this world was thrown off balance. was in the dark and needed truth.

Jesus preached the last shall be the 1st, not only was he referring to man but to this whole world. take a look around you and you can still see we are in the dark. hence his 2nd coming this planet has problem's to say the least

Well it rains and the sun shines on the good and the bad. We are like ying & yang. in each light there is some darkness and in each darkness there is some light.

Each person or deity is uniquely created for the purposes God has made them to carry out what they are made for to carry out.

We all have a free will and a mind and a heart of our own. Your choice may not be mine choice and that what you love is not something that perhaps everyone else loves.

Brotherly love ? You do realise we live in a world where alot of people are manipulated by believing that the materials we create are of more value then we give value to the creators that make them ? Does that make any sense ?

If you truly have love in your heart, then you would love everyone that comes in your life as your own child that you would love to see growing up in a better understanding of who your own child is.

But then again we live in a world where we see good and bad things happen, so they both exist.

So wheter you feel like lucifer should be forgiven or not, i think that it comes down if he wants to be forgiven ?
But if you want to forgive him for all the things people have to go through in their daily life because of sins, well thats your choice, but not mine.

reply to post by SaturnFX


But my dog still gets to go to Heaven, right? I think her only sin is gluttony, she loves those Pupperonies and dehydrated chicken strips.

Seriously, though, I just find it hard to understand that the devil would be so bat guano insane that he would select a suicide course. But then, maybe mortals like us just can't understand the thought processes of beings like that.

excellent post albeit not what I was expecting. I am downloading the Urantia Book as I type this and really look forward to sinking my teeth into it. our paths seem very similar and I think this book will be another stepping stone for me towards the never ending pursuit of enlightenment.
I'd be very interested to discuss this topic and others with you in the future.


namaste.

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
What I don't get about "Lucifer" is why people still talk about "it" at all? Hasn't this subject already been beaten to death, the truth that Lucifer was a Roman name given to Venus (the morning star). In ancient Greece, the language of the original NT, Lucifer was the latin name given as a translation to Phosphoros (light-bearer). The funny thing is, the name only appears once, but it was incorrectly added (not translated, but added) to Isaiah 14:12 — but only in the King James and related versions:

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . .”

The problem is, this passage was originally about a fallen Babylonian King, not a fallen angel, and the king isn't even named in the original texts. So Christian scribes added a name (Phosphoros, later changed to Lucifer) to this verse and it completely changed the context of what was intended.

so if you got it all figured out why did you stop by in here then? to belittle us with you banter. if you want to believe lucifer was a myth so be it. but a least if your going to stop by add some content which applies to the subject material.

Originally posted by Patchman
excellent post albeit not what I was expecting. I am downloading the Urantia Book as I type this and really look forward to sinking my teeth into it. our paths seem very similar and I think this book will be another stepping stone for me towards the never ending pursuit of enlightenment.
I'd be very interested to discuss this topic and others with you in the future.


namaste.

Agreed cant wait, but i suggest you read it from cover to cover and not jump around, if you do it will be only more confusing for you.

but cant wait for the discussion's.

Originally posted by Haites
take a look around you and you can still see we are in the dark. hence his 2nd coming this planet has problem's to say the least

I think thats a perception issue.
I definitely do see the dark, but even in full daylight, shadows are bound to be around...its how we measure light and perceive in the first thing. I don't want to live in full darkness nor light..its the mix that tends to accentuate both nicely.


Personally, I think the focus of us dictates what grows within us all. See all the darkness, be all the darkness. I don't need an endless stream of negative images programming my mind to know the world has issues, but I think it is more fruitful to push forward what we want verses what we dislike. Start programming in the positive aspects of life

Just a view...probably not correct, and I am a hypocrite, so take my words with a grain of salt. I just get annoyed at hating the world type thoughts because some arses exist. Loss of perspective is a damaging thing.

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

But my dog still gets to go to Heaven, right? I think her only sin is gluttony, she loves those Pupperonies and dehydrated chicken strips.

Seriously, though, I just find it hard to understand that the devil would be so bat guano insane that he would select a suicide course. But then, maybe mortals like us just can't understand the thought processes of beings like that.

All dogs go to heaven!
Haven't you seen the documentary labelled just that?

Originally posted by Haites

so if you got it all figured out why did you stop by in here then? to belittle us with you banter. if you want to believe lucifer was a myth so be it. but a least if your going to stop by add some content which applies to the subject material.

Didn't mean to offend you, though I do get p!$$ed when people take history and turn it on it's head to paint it as evil because they have a control agenda, and taking beliefs and culture and flipping its meaning is the best way to gain said control over the masses. I'm not saying you're guilty of this, though I am saying those who came before you are, and their perversion of history has obviously affected people's views on reality. Christianity and Islam are ripe with cases of people taking pagan ideas and either incorporating them, if they suit their needs, or condemning them as evil if they don't.

The truth of the matter is, according to the balance of the universe, if you do believe in a deity that controls and looks after all, this deity would have to serve as both "god" and "devil". There's no way around it. Good and evil are matters of perspective, no matter how skewed that perspective might have to be for it to make sense to the human mind. The saying "The Lord works in mysterious ways." is a perfect example of people justifying both "god's" love and cruelty. Personally, I would change the word Lord to Universe, as my beliefs, though they do hold the idea of a higher power, do not require a god to make sense of that power, life, tragedy, or miracles.