If Iran does not have nukes, neither Israel have

Lets play same words:

Nobody presented any IREFUTABLE PROOF that Iran have or is pursuing nuclear weapons.

Same sentence, just replace Iran with Israel.

If one will make a poll asking : ''Do you believe Israel have nuclear weapons?'' proabably 99%+ will answer ''yes'', tho there is NO EVIDENCE at all that Israel have them.
Probably 99% will answer ''not'' if the question will be asked about Iran.

NOW, since there is NO IREFUTABLE PROOF that both Israel and Iran have nuclear weapons or are pursuing nuclear weapons...the logical question is why people BELEIVE Iran doesn't have and BELIEVE Isarel have them?

Remember, before answering based on common sense, there is NO PROOF in both cases, Iran and Israel.

Well for one Israel has a stated policy of nuclear ambiguity...they neither confirm or deny as to keep the enemy guessing. So who really knows?

IMO nobody should have them PERIOD. We have to get away from nuclear energy and develop the hidden energy that is being suppressed by TPTB. It's all about power,control, and greed.

Uh, no evidence of Israeli nukes, really? Have you ever heard of Mordechai Vanunu? In Israel, he's more famous than Santa Claus but for entirely different reasons. I would suggest that you check out this article from Wiki;

en.wikipedia.org...

Mordechai Vanunu (Hebrew: מרדכי ואנונו‎); (born 14 October 1954) is a former Israeli nuclear technician who, citing his opposition to weapons of mass destruction, revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons program to the British press in 1986.[2][3] He was subsequently lured to Italy by a Mossad agent, where he was drugged and kidnapped by Israeli intelligence agents.[2] He was transported to Israel and ultimately convicted in a trial that was held behind closed doors.

That's just the first paragraph. Vanunu was locked up for 18yrs. for disclosing Israel's nuclear secrets and most everyone in Israel is well aware of what happens to anyone who reveals state's secrets based on his case. Therefore, when ask about Israeli nuclear programs, most Israeli citizens will reply that they have nothing to say for fear of being "Vanunued."

There is no doubt whatsoever regarding Israel's nuclear capability other than the fact that they continue to be the model for hypocrisy within the nuclear disclosure arena.

No one wants Nuclear weapons in the Middle East. They are a political tool used for leverage more than anything else, and Iran does not have interests that coincide with the prevailing Western powers, therefore, it is much more dangerous to the status quo for them to have nukes than it is for Israel.

If Israel had nukes, besides provocation of neighboring states, nothing would really change. They are allied with other nuclear states. So it would not be that much different than the current position.

However, should Iran have them, it would be a game changer. Their bargaining powers would increase ten fold and they would become a leading power in the region.

Apart from Mordechai Vanunu, have you heard of Samson Option?

Samson Option Supporters

Two Israel supporters are frequently quoted for their explicit support of the Samson Option. Martin Van Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, has been quoted as saying: "Most European capitals are targets for our air force....We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under."[38]

In 2002 the Los Angeles Times, published an opinion piece by Louisiana State University professor David Perlmutter in which he wrote: "What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens? For the first time in history, a people facing extermination while the world either cackles or looks away--unlike the Armenians, Tibetans, World War II European Jews or Rwandans--have the power to destroy the world. The ultimate justice?"[39]

Two influential Israel supporters advocate more active use of the Samson Option threat. Louis René Beres, a professor of Political Science at Purdue University and an Ariel Sharon advisor, recommends Israel use the Samson Option threat to support conventional preemptive attacks against enemy nuclear and non-nuclear assets, discouraging conventional retaliation.[40] Jerome Corsi, a Harvard Ph.D. in political science and author of two books encouraging Israel to use nuclear weapons[41], writes that “Israel's Samson Option” could be “a preemptive strike against Iran.”[42]

The Israelis also are egged on in its nuclear threats by "Christian Zionists" like Hal Lindsay who believe Israel must expand its control of territory to its Biblical borders in order to bring about Armageddon and the return of Jesus Christ.[43] Some suspect that former President George W. Bush holds such beliefs,[44] especially after his November 2007 statement "If you want to see World War Three, you know, a way to do that is to attack Israel with a nuclear weapon."

www.carolmoore.net...


Some more:

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1955: Under Atoms for Peace program, overseen by pro-Israel Lewis Stauss who was head of America's Atomic Energy Commission, U.S. helps fund a small Israeli nuclear research reactor. Strauss learned about Dimona and its purpose before the U.S. government but did not inform the U.S. government.

1953: Israeli researchers perfect a process for extracting Uranium, and developing a new method of producing heavy water, which is a key ingredient in the process. Hundreds of millions of dollars will be raised to build Israel's nuclear bomb over the next twenty years, mostly from American Jews; effort is led by Abraham Feinberg who financially backs both Presidents Truman and Johnson, as well as presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson. (John F. Kennedy accepts his money but is incensed by the pro-Israel lobbying.)

1956: France and Israel formally and secretly agree to build a nuclear reactor in the Negev desert. Britain, France and Israel invade Egypt (Suez Canal crisis) and the Soviet Union threatens to use rockets against them if they do not desist, leading to a cease-fire. U.S. begins U-2 spy flights over targets world wide, including Israel.

1957: France and Israel sign a revised agreement calling for France to build a 24 MWt reactor; unwritten was the agreement to build a plutonium reprocessing plant.

1958: Israel breaks ground at Dimona, with assistance of French scientists and contractors, and U-2 spy planes provide evidence Israelis are building nuclear plant there.

1960: Israeli scientists witness first French atomic explosion in South Pacific. French President Charles DeGaulle threatens to cut off reactor fuel if Israel doesn't accept international inspections, but eventually accepts Israel's assertions Dimona is only for peaceful purposes and work continues. United States intelligence leaks to the press that Israel is building a secret nuclear facility that will eventually produce a nuclear bomb. Israel admits this to its Parliament and world but claims it is only for peaceful purposes.

1961: President Kennedy makes the man who leaked Israel's bomb to the press head of the CIA. Kennedy is very opposed to Israel having the bomb and tells Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion so in many letters and in meeting in New York about the purpose of Dimona. Ben-Gurion tells him its purpose is peaceful and refuses to allow international inspections. Israel launches its first rocket.

1962: Ben-Gurion allows inspections by American inspectors only in return for sales of Hawk surface-to-air missiles. Israel builds a fake control room and bricks off parts of buildings to hide from inspectors the true size and purpose of the reactor (three times bigger than admitted) and that it was connected to a plutonium reprocessing plant; this feint continues during seven such inspections until they end in 1969. Reactor at Dimona goes into operation.

1963: Kennedy refuses to sign any security arrangement with Israel. After Kennedy assassination brings the very pro-Israel Lyndon Johnson to power. (Not surprisingly there is an assassination conspiracy theory that the Mossad killed Kennedy.)

1964: Dimona plutonium processing plant goes online. In first official visit by an Israeli Prime Minister (Eshkol) to Washington, Johnson promises Israel offensive fighter jets and other weapons if it refrains from producing nuclear weapons. Israel's Eshkol eventually agrees to Johnson's terms and holds off on producing the bomb for a few years. China explodes first nuclear bomb.

1965: Israel performs its first plutonium extraction, and France assists Israel in developing its Jericho missiles.

1966: U.S. begins fighter jet and arms shipments to Israel. Johnson discourages further reports on Israel nuclear situation from U.S. embassy in Israel. Israel refuses money for nuclear desalination plant which is tied to international inspections of Dimona.

1967: Six Day War when Israel pre-emptively attacks an Egyptian military buildup in the Sinai Peninsula. Israel attacks USS Liberty surveillance vessel, killing 34 sailors; (see BBC allegation below that Israelis wanted to instigate a U.S. nuclear attack on Cairo). Soviet Union supports Arabs militarily, sends ships to the region and breaks diplomatic ties with Israel. Americans unofficially inform Israel that the Soviet Union has put four Israeli cities on its nuclear target list.

1968: Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, believing Israel cannot depend on the U.S. to defend it, unilaterally orders full production of nuclear weapons, averaging four to twelve per year, depending on size. Israel illicitly imports two hundred tons of uranium.

1969: President Richard Nixon takes office and fully supports Israel's nuclear weapons, as does his National Security chief Henry Kissinger. Ends American inspections at Dimona and shares some nuclear targeting information about the Soviet Union. CIA tries to inform President Johnson about Dimona, but he brushes off information, signs Nonproliferation Treaty, and sends Israel advanced Phantom fighter jets.

1973: Israelis catch Soviet spy ring in high levels of Israeli government and make it clear to Soviets they have produced "suitcase nukes" they could sneak into Russia. Egypt and Syria attack unprepared Israeli forces in Sinai and Golan Heights on the Jewish fast in Yom Kippur War. Israel goes on nuclear alert and begins to ready nuclear weapons for actual use, forcing the U.S. to airlift them weapons and to start redeploying nuclear armed ships and airplanes. When Soviets started talking about sending in Russian troops, Israel again goes on nuclear alert. Washington pressures Israel to accept a cease-fire.

1974: Defense Minister Dayan visits South Africa to discuss testing a nuclear weapon there.

1975: Israel receives nuclear-capable Lance missiles from the United States, even as U.S. remains in official denial about Israel having nuclear weapons.

1976: South Africa's Prime Minister visits Israel to sign several nuclear and other agreements.

1977: Menachem Begin's right wing expansionist Likud Party takes power in Israel and is determined to reshape Middle East to suit Israel's needs, including through using the nuclear threat. Commits to nuclear targeting of even more cities in the Soviet Union. President Carter does not take on the issue, despite conducting Camp David peace talks between Egypt and Israel.

1979: President Carter provides Israel ability to see American spy satellite photos for defense purposes only, but Israelis manage to get them for pre-emptive strikes against Middle East and Russia. Israel and South Africa explode first nuclear bomb in South Indian Ocean but appointed U.S. committee refuses to conclude it was a nuclear explosion.

1981: Israel, using U.S. spy satellite photos, sends F-16s to bomb and destroy Iraqi nuclear reactor under construction at Osirak. U.S. strictly limits further access to spy photos. Defense Minister Ariel Sharon recruits American Navy employee Jonathan Pollard as a spy to obtain satellite photos plus massive amounts of other classified information about Israel's enemies, some of which Israel turns over to the Soviet Union to try to win over its adversary. Ariel Sharon talks President Reagan into a formal Israel-U.S. military alliance against the Soviet Union but Defense Chief Weinberger delays and sabotages it.

1982: Under Ariel Sharon's military leadership, Israel invades Lebanon to attack Palestinian militants as first part of plan to drive Palestinians into Jordan, using the threat of nuclear weapons to intimidate any adversaries. However, despite destroying Beruit and killing more than ten thousand Arabs and 500 Israelis, Sharon's efforts in Lebanon fail. Israel eventually withdraws and Sharon loses his position.

1985: Jonathan Pollard captured leaving office with stolen papers. Eventually sentenced to life in prison.

1986: Mordechai Vanunu, a disaffected Dimona technician who left with photographs and other evidence of nuclear weapons production, publishes details in the London Sunday Times newspaper; reveals Israel has over 100 nuclear weapons. Israel starts disinformation campaign then lures him to Italy where he is kidnaped, taken to Israel and imprisoned for 18 years. He was released in spring of 2004 and remains under house arrest because of his continuing contact with the media.

1987: Israel test-fires a Jericho 2 missile capable of carrying a nulcear weapon. UN General Assembly and the IAEA General Conference passes first of more than a dozen resolutions calling on Israel to join the Nonproliferation Treaty.

1988: Israel launches its first spy satellite into orbit.

1991: U.S. convinces Israel to refrain from attacking Iraq with nuclear weapons, even if Iraq uses chemical or biological weapons against it, but Israel's nuclear weapons remain on alert.

1999: US Department of Energy document ranks Israel sixth among countries with nuclear weapons.

2000: Knesset debates Israel's nuclear weapons program for first time. Germany sells Israel three state-of-the-art 800-class Dolphin submarines and Israel tests first submarine-launched missile in the area of the Indian Ocean. Ariel Sharon is elected Prime Minister of Israel, still intending to use nuclear weapons to bully other nations and remake the Middle East for the benefit of Israel. George Bush is elected in the United state and his neoconservative allies fully intend that the United States help Sharon fulfill that mission. Right wing Israelis begin freely talking about attacking other nations, including with nuclear weapons.

2001: Bush inflames Arabs by clearly taking sides with Israel's expansionist aims, part of the reason for the September 11 attacks against the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. He obsesses about attacking Iraq, not defending America against known Al Queda terrorists. Starts planning war against Iraq after September 11 attacks, including option of using nuclear weapons.

2002: George Bush gives Israel the go-ahead to use nuclear weapons against Iraq if Saddam attacks Israel before the American invasion of Iraq. Pentagon Office of Special Plans uses information from Iraqi dissidents and Israel's Mossad to convince Americans that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction that are an imminent threat against America. Israel launches Ofek-5 satellite with a powerful new inter-continental missile.

2003: Israel repeatedly demands sanctions against Iran for its nuclear program and threatens to bomb Iran's operating nuclear power plant, despite Iran's threats to retaliate hard against Israel. Russia may have sold Iran additional advanced missiles capable of shooting down Israeli bomber and fighter jets. Russian President Putin proposes Security Council formally call for establishment of a Palestinian state and arrests last of the Jewish "oligarchs" who bought state industries for pennies on the dollar under Yeltsin. Arab and other nations repeatedly ask that Israel nuclear facilities come under international inspections. So does the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Mohammed el-Baradei. United Nations General Assembly passes resolution that Israel join the nonproliferation treaty by a vote of 164-4. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon tells Israeli newspaper that Israel will not dismantle its “special measures” because the U.S. will not remain in the Middle East forever.

2004: Israel buys two more German submarines for delivering nuclear tipped cruise missiles, making a total of five. Mordechai Vanunu's prison term ends 2004 but Israel keeps putting him in prison and or under house arrest for trying to speak to others outside the country on nuclear issues and for wanting to leave Israel permanently.
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edit on 10-1-2012 by PURIFIER because: (no reason given)

Israel has had them since the late 60's, arguably, and hasn't used them...
That's proof enough they can be trusted.

amirite?

No IREFUTABLE proof yet...keep on coming guys.

Vanunu declared, he didn't had a nuke ''made in Israel'' in his backpack.So, no, that is not a proof.

Samson option does not state nuclear weapons will be used.


Still waiting for the IREFUTABLE PROOF...If there is no proof Iran have them (as many Iran suporters keep asking for those proofs) and there is no proof Israel have them...

WHY do you believe IRAN doesn't have them but ISRAEL have them?

reply to post by Recollector


I know that saying this sounds really dumb, but I can guarantee you that Israel has nukes as the US gave them nuclear weapons in the height of the cold war. Whether they developed their own program since or not I am not sure but I can guarantee you that Israel has nuclear weapons.

Originally posted by Recollector
No IREFUTABLE proof yet...keep on coming guys.

Vanunu declared, he didn't had a nuke ''made in Israel'' in his backpack.So, no, that is not a proof.

Samson option does not state nuclear weapons will be used.


Still waiting for the IREFUTABLE PROOF...If there is no proof Iran have them (as many Iran suporters keep asking for those proofs) and there is no proof Israel have them...

WHY do you believe IRAN doesn't have them but ISRAEL have them?

edit on 10-1-2012 by Recollector because: (no reason given)

It used to be said that a picture was worth a thousand words and Vanunu provided a whole host of pictures supporting his disclosure of Israeli nukes at the time he went public. Furthermore, I doubt seriously that Israel would sentence him to 18 yrs. in prison for making baseless accusations.

I guess the final decision of whether or not to accept it as fact is ultimately up to you. You know what they say; "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

reply to post by Flatfish


It doesn't matter if Israel has them or not, because they aren't publicly declaring they have them. That is where the havoc gets raised. The reason the West doesn't want Iran or similar countries to get them, is because if those countries declared having them, tides would change.

Israel plays ball with Western nations, the others don't.

End of story.

I would imagine if Israel lost ties with the West their nuclear capabilities would become quite apparent.

reply to post by Recollector


Israel has nukes. There's no doubts. That's why after they bombed Syria they didn't retaliate because they were worried about getting nuked.

Israel will never come right out and openly admit they have nukes, but there is very little doubt that they do. Unless you want to believe the old "we misspoke" lines.

First of all in relation to Iran, they are an original signatory to the NPT. Why does that matter? Well any country can back out of the NPT if ""extraordinary events … have jeopardized the supreme interests" of the signing country. With Israel declaring "nuclear ambiguity" and not signing the NPT, any program they have would not be in violation of any international agreements. That being said, Israel has slipped up on a few occasions.

For starters you can look into "The Vela Incident" when in 1979 US Satellites picked up what appeared to be a nuclear detonation. The suspect list was interesting to say the least. It was suspected that it was either Russia, France, India, South Africa or Israel. A U.S. "Presidential Panel" eventually declared that satellites picked up a meteorite exploding or hitting earth, however many experts disagree.

Vela Incident from Wiki

Vela Incident- NSA Archives

I know.. that's not "proof" but I thought it was a fun fact, however there is more. There is the South African documents that were released that showed that in 1975 Israel offered to sell Nukes to South Africa, but Shimon Peres then claimed that the documents were "misinterpreted".
Reveled: How Israel offered to sell S.A. nuclear weapons

As previously mentioned in1986 Israeli scientist Mordechai Vanunu gave photos and detailed accounts of the country's underground weapons factory to the Sunday Times. He was drugged and kidnapped in Rome and thrown into an Israeli Prison for 18 years. Interesting to note that his documents provided information on Israel's top secret Dimona nuclear facility which no one denies exist. It is the same facility that Israel refuses to allow Nuclear Inspectors to visit and that the Federation of American Scientist as of 2000 claimed could have made enough Plutonium for up to 200 weapons.
BBC News
Of course you have discounted his story as "proof" so let's move on to my personal favorite slip up.

In 2006 Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert made a comment that many people wanted clarified. After giving an interview with German TV the Prime Minister, when asked about issues with Iran, added Israel's name to a list of Nuclear States.

But it was an interview he granted to a German television station before he even left Jerusalem which proved the defining issue of his visit. In a reference to remarks made by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad earlier this year, he said, "Iran openly, explicitly and publicly threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the same level, when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons as America, France, Israel, Russia?"

Source

Pretty interesting slip of the tongue is it not? I am sure he probably is simply misinformed completely on the subject and that he just misspoke in the heat of the moment

Sorry to tell you OP but there is more evidence of an Israeli Nuclear Program than there is for Iran.

Based on the replies here, i now understand why people believe Israel have nukes, even nobody actually seen one.
I also believe 100% that Israel have nukes, even tho no official admited that ever.

Based on logic, there is no doubt that Israel have nuclear weapons.

Personaly, i don't think Iran have nuclear weapons, but i strongly believe they are working to get them.


The most important fact that have to be taken into consideration when trying to see if a country have WMD or not, is the long range strike capabilities.
Israel have subs that can carry nuclear tipped missiles.They also have Jericho's.So, its quite logical to assume that they have those because they have nukes.

However...Iran have Shahab's...the logic tells me that they AT LEAST want nuclear weapons.


It comes down to this : If someone buys a gun, its logical to assume they bought bullets also, or at least will do it in the future.
Because, really, a gun without bullets its just a sophisticated club.

reply to post by Recollector


The smart thing for Iran would be to get nukes, but the process in acquiring them would make them an easy target for western powers...but without nukes they are also an easy target, ultimately Iran is between a rock and a hard place. Iran would use nukes as a deterrence...just like every other nation, a big flashing neon sign that says do not invade. But one nuke is not enough, they would have to make dozens if not hundreds and have a good way of deploying them, trying to attain all of these things attracts attention and would be like waving a red flag in front of the raging western bull...but right now Iran has no nukes an no efficient way of deploying them. Which is why i believe Iran truly is going down the non nuclear weapon road as all the evidence suggests, and hoping for the best. They are just trying to stall for a while longer imo, because it won 't be long before America is no longer the 800lb gorilla in the world that always gets it way.

reply to post by Recollector


well the differance is...

jewish extremists believes that they just have to wait untill god comes and murders all their enemies.

Muslim extremists believe that they have to murder people with their own hands for their god.

One is passive agressive... the other is aggressive suicidial.

reply to post by Wertdagf


I take it you have not seen the large protests in Israel, usually on the west bank where Jewish extremists are more prevalent, hoping that Israel preemptively launches nukes against all nations in the world? start nuclear Armageddon so their perverted fantasies can come in to fruition?

but Israel do have nukes ...
that doesnt mean Iran also have nukes

First off, there is doubt. Secondly, many countries have nuclear weapons.
im ashamed of the wanna be tough guys who insist we use aggression and keep this bullying going.
i ask, please grow up and get past the high you get from physical violence. Most people dont want death just so you can sit at your dinner table and act like a tough guy.

reply to post by Flatfish


I was reading your wiki link that you have provided regarding the Israeli whistle blower and i found something interesting:

In July 2004 Vanunu claimed in the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper that the State of Israel was complicit in the assassination of John F. Kennedy. He claimed there were "near-certain indications" that Kennedy was assassinated in response to "pressure he exerted on Israel’s then head of government, David Ben-Gurion, to shed light on Dimona’s nuclear reactor"