Sacrifice your children to God!

Originally posted by ixiy

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Christians do not have to sacrifice their children in order to get right with God.


It seems consider sacrificing life to be the greats act of selflessness... isn't self sacrifice the greatest act instead of sacrificing others, why doesn't God just demand our sacifice instead of our children or that of other life forms, is it because some people may find it easier to sacifice themselves than there children and is therefore not a valid test of faith.

Why is it so fixated on sacrifice and loyalty?

Can't we all just get along as friends, God wouldn't make a friend do this, would it?

And yet God says over and over in the Bible that to be obedient is better than sacrifice. Yes, there are people who do sacrifice their children, they just do it in different ways.

Many have done so for wealth and fame, not considering their children want their parents. Some people sacrifice them for drug addictions, we see that all the time. Some sacrifice their children so they can go out and have a good time and fun. Casey Anthony proved that, even though we might disagree on whether or not she actually killed Caylee, but the little girl was still sacrificed because Casey wanted to have fun.

It seems the only time people have a problem with the sacrifice of children is when it comes to God and Abraham, but they don't condemn the rest of the world who sacrifice children on a daily basis. To obey is better than sacrifice.

reply to post by WarminIndy


No, people do condemn the rest of the world for sacrificing their children on a daily basis when they find out about them.

Some dedicate their lives to try and bring justice for such unfortunate children, however justice isn't always possible especially in certain countries or when such people happen to be very rich and powerful.

However, that doesn't stop most of us from condemning them for their actions, God or no God.

Some anti-animal abuse activist are just as relentless.

When it comes to God, the confession of obediance doesn't seem enough for it, it seems to view sacrificing life as the best test of loyalty.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Why would Abraham give such an answer if his intent was to keep the command?

The angel of The Lord said 'because now I know that you fear God because you did not withhold your son, your only son, from me.'
This puts Issac into a classification which demanded he die, being the firstborn son, even though technically, Ishmael was Abraham's first born son. There seems to be a strong cross-over between this person identified in the Old Testament as, The Lord, with the old Canaanite gods, to where there was a conflation made between all the aspects of the gods, and made into a single entity, including the one, Moloch, who you mention.
You have Adam's firstborn, Able, killed. Issac tied up on an altar with a knife to his throat while the other son is wandering in the desert to die. You have the firstborn Esau left to relative obscurity while the second son, Jacob steals the birthright.
Seems that this theft is legitimized by having Issac in this demanded by The Lord position of sacrifice, to take the designation of the one libel to death, away from Ishmael, and conferred to him, somewhat reminiscent of having Jacobs mother conveniently tying a thread on the finger of Jacob before Esau was born, to give a backdoor legitimacy to Jacob, so now with this demand of the Moloch aspect of thirst for the blood of the firstborn, makes the story line of the patriarchs click in harmony of this feeling good about themselves as the rightful whatever.

Originally posted by ixiy
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

No, people do condemn the rest of the world for sacrificing their children on a daily basis when they find out about them.

Some dedicate their lives to try and bring justice for such unfortunate children, however justice isn't always possible especially in certain countries or when such people happen to be very rich and powerful.

Sacrifice does not always mean the physical death of a person, it can mean spiritual or emotional. We do not in this society condemn parents for sacrificing their children when they seek wealth, fame or fun. Let me give some examples...

Miley Cyrus, sacrificed to revive an ailing career of her father.
Lindsay Lohan, sacrificed to bring money to support lifestyles of her parents.
Shirley Temple, sacrificed for her mother to live vicariously through her daughter's achievement.

These are three examples of that very concept within this society. As much as people do not like the abortion issue, abortion is a type of sacrifice in itself.

And there are people who do sacrifice their children physically, and Uganda proves that.
Who would sacrifice children's lives for wealth?

“Child sacrifice has risen because people have become lovers of money. They want to get richer,” the BBC quoted a local pastor. “They have a belief that when you sacrifice a child you get wealth, and there are people who are willing to buy these children for a price. So they have become a commodity of exchange, child sacrifice has become a commercial business.”

In Thailand, children are sacrificed sexually to gratify the lusts of even men from this society, yet we turn our back on that because we do not want to offend or condemn them. Fighting Thailand's child sexual exploitation

BANGKOK, Thailand — An American man wanted in Texas on child sex abuse charges was arrested Thursday in Thailand and could be sent to the U.S. within days, the district attorney's office in Houston said. Confirming Thai reports, the Harris County, Texas district attorney's office said it was "aware" that Darren Ray Castleberry, 41, had been arrested in the Thai capital, Bangkok.

Are we really condemning them? When it comes to Britney Spears and Miley Cyrus, no we do not, we just buy more and more records while they are exploited more and more to make money for the adults surrounding them. All the normal aspects of childhood have been killed, because someone else wants the money they bring. That is sacrifice, and it is not condemned by any means.

reply to post by ixiy

My opinions;

a) I don't have children yet, and if I did, it is a mighty cruel test to put forth, regardless of any type of ending that malevolent types would have no problem with, but find it hard to imagine benevolent beings doing the same. God knows.

b) I don't give in easily to threats, even at the risk of being punished for all eternity.

c) If I was forced to do it somehow, I am not sure how I will be able to live with myself, I don't have such a strong will, an external factor may be required to erase or alter my memory of such an event as I will refuse to forget or deny it.

d) God may forgive me, but I may/will not forgive myself.

What are your Opinions?

ixiy, I see you as having strength and morality that surpasses many parents'. If and when you DO have children, you will find that your opinions are even stronger.

Any God that would demand I sacrifice my child....heck, even smash their finger with a hammer!....is no merciful God. He is a sadistic bastard and cruel.

And furthermore, I protest to God being a "male." The female aspect of the Divine would NEVER EVER ask mothers to do such a thing...

No biblical "hell" could EVER be worse than having sacrificed my own child. I'd grab my kids' hands and run. NO ONE will harm my kids and not hear from me. Consequences be damned. Literally....he he

reply to post by WarminIndy


Hi WarminIndy, I think what really gets on everyones nerves is that this sacrifice was asked for by what is paraded around as a loving God. Earlier religions --Pagan and others-- did ask for human sacrifices. Religion keeps evolving --with the exception of Christianity. In Christianity we are told that God the Father is loving. It doesn't matter that the earlier religions had sacrifice and he was trying to make a point. If you expect people to believe you are loving, you don't do that.

Now here is where it gets really crazy. God's word is never to be changed and no law is supposed to be changed either (which is a big reason why Jewish people reject Jesus as Messiah cause he changed those things) --but that means Christianity does not and will not evolve. There is so much in that Bible that is not loving and its for all time. It is not going to change and when Christians whitewash it today its because they know there is no changing it --best come up with some kind of explanation that justifies it and so it goes. Thats what happens when you're stuck with something. The explanations given today don't match the explanations given for much of the Bible 20 years ago. That is the only part that changes. But the actual words --which is all anyone really needs to see-- those will never change. What was bad when it was written is still bad today.

What they thought of women back then and children is gonna be the rules forever.

At least the Pagan beliefs have evolved. There is no shame in changing things that are harmful. The shame is in keeping them.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Christians do not have to sacrifice their children in order to get right with God.

He sacrificed His for a greater cause and that is all that is required.

Respectfully,

DK

No. God did not sacrifice his son, even if you believe the story of Jesus. God, supposedly sent his son to live, teach and then die. Jesus is in heaven sitting at the right hand of god, is he not?

No sacrifice. He just went away on a trip or a little while.

reply to post by ixiy


I think your opinions are not rooted in the words of Christ in which you can read in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Revelation).

He is not going to ask you to sacrifice your children, but if you think he is bluffing about destroying you if you continue to live in wickedness the only thing i can say to that is test him, but you only get one chance. If you think he is lying when he says you will be destroyed, you better think again. He is long suffering but one day his patience will wear out. If you think he is not a wrathful God, stick around a few more years and i promise you, in this decade you will see things that will make you fall on your face in fear.

I don't want to see anyone perish but i have grown weary of this world and it's prevailing evil and i am ready for Adonai (the Master) to return and put a stop to all this warmongering, money loving, murdering and selfishness that pervades this world and he is the only one who can stop it.

Call me what you will but i am ready to see his return even if i have to die for it.

reply to post by windword

. . . God did not sacrifice his son . . .

What was the person who became Jesus, before he became Jesus the man?
He would have been the god, Son of God.
So what is this same person today?
Jesus Christ, Son of Man.
Pretty big demotion.
Not only is it a step down for Jesus from what he was previously, but a privation for God having lost that relationship with his god son, who had to go through some serious changes in order to save us.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by windword

 

. . . God did not sacrifice his son . . .

What was the person who became Jesus, before he became Jesus the man?

I don't know, you tell me. I believe in reincarnation, and I think Jesus said he was Elijah.

He would have been the god, Son of God.

What? So God left heaven to become Jesus? Or, did God divide himself and half of him came to earth and the other half stayed and listened to Jesus pray to his father? Or, is there some kind of family in heaven and Jesus the son went on a trip to earth, for a while?

So what is this same person today?

Um, I dont know. In heaven where he came from? Or, a reincarnated soul.

Christ, Son of Man.

What? You've lost me.

Pretty big demotion.

I thought Jesus was glorified by God after the resurrection and was taken up to heaven?

Not only is it a step down for Jesus from what he was previously, but a privation for God having lost that relationship with his god son, who had to go through some serious changes in order to save us.

What? Jesus was demoted? And, he never regained his relationship with his father God. This is all news to me.

Sorry, I don't see it. I was taught, as a child, the Jesus came from heaven to save us, then went back to heaven to be with God and prepare "many mansions" for us. If we are good little Christians and ask him into out heart and to forgive our sins we go to heaven.

There is no way that I can be convinced that God ever sacrificed anyone or anything. To whom would this sacrifice be given? Satan? Humans? Makes no sense. Sorry, no sacrifice here, not by God or by Jesus. Neither of them lost a thing.

BTW, I don't consider myself to be Christain anymore.

Originally posted by LunaKat
I always thought that was a really sick twisted God who would put a parent through that in the Old Testament. There is no reason to justify that kind of cruelty to a parent.

It gets whitewashed though by those who believe in that God as does everything else he does wrong in the Bible. He'd be put in jail in our society for doing the same thing.

I know this will not change many of your opinions but let me share something. Abraham was nearly 100 when his wife bore Isaac, his first son by Sarah. God promised Abraham that his wife even at her old age and even though she had been barren would bare him a son. So you see if God tells you when your 100 years old that your 90 year wife will be having a son and you do in fact have a healthy son than you will probably believe that it is God that made this promise.

The next part of the story God promises to rise up a multitude of chosen people through his seed Isaac. So a this point Abraham being full of faith trusts that God will do what he said just as he already did. Now God tells Abraham to sacrifice the same son who is supposed to be his offspring that this multitude of believers would spring from.

So you see up until this point God promised an old couple a child and delivered. God promised to raise a multitude of chosen people through his son. And now has asked Abraham to sacrifice this same son. So Abraham is left with only one conclusion. The same God that promised the son and made the covenant with him, would also somehow save Isaac and deliver on his promise.

Although this seems a little tough Abraham had faith and was willing to do anything. This was not a blind faith as God had already preformed a miracle by giving him Isaac in the first place. If God comes to you and tells you hey I’m going to perform a miracle and then delivers on this miracle I would imagine it becomes a little easier to have trust and faith in this same God.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Christians do not have to sacrifice their children in order to get right with God.

He sacrificed His for a greater cause and that is all that is required.

Respectfully,

DK

No. God did not sacrifice his son, even if you believe the story of Jesus. God, supposedly sent his son to live, teach and then die. Jesus is in heaven sitting at the right hand of god, is he not?

No sacrifice. He just went away on a trip or a little while.

Well, technically God sacrificed himself. The body of Yahshua was his mortal shell, but it was the Holy Spirit himself powering his body, just like our spirits power our bodies. There is no Trinity, that is pagan crap from the Roman Catholic Church. There is only 1 God and he is the Father, Yahshua (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. He is in them and they are in him. Not 3 Gods, only 1. The book of Acts even tells us He sits on the white throne of judgement and His Holy Spirit flows from him into his children. The White Throne is God's throne and Jesus is sitting on it.

reply to post by windword

BTW, I don't consider myself to be Christain anymore.

Regardless, you may want to study it some to have some informed opinions on it, or you may think it is all mythology, where if that is the case I might be wasting my time explaining all this and I don't have like a single source where you can look all this up but comes from reading a lot of books.
I could try to give some short answers.
Jesus said John the Baptist was Elijah but he probably did not mean that literally but in the sense that people expected a prophet to tell people ahead of time of the coming and the having come Messiah, or the expected one who was to restore justice and peace.

Or, is there some kind of family in heaven and Jesus the son went on a trip to earth, for a while?

Something like that but not just taking a trip but having to live an entire life including being born as a baby and having to grow up as a human.

What? You've lost me.

He is a resurrected and glorified human being, such as we will be when we go to heaven, which means he is not the same sort of god which he was before going to earth as a man, and will always be the way he is now.
The sacrifice is someone who was a god is no longer a god, nor will he ever go back to being a god, and the other sacrifice is by God the Father who no longer has his son as he was in his former state which was some sort of special communion between these two essentially equal entities. Now there is a relationship but never as it was at an earlier time, so God sacrificed that special bond He enjoyed but now does not.
The sacrifice was something they gave up so that the people of earth could have a future life instead of just dying and going away forever. The loss was something that existed, then ceased to exist, and was not a transfer of ownership to another entity as a gift. So they did not make a sacrifice TO anyone but to a thing in order for this thing to come into being where it did not before, which is our eternal life.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

There is no Trinity, that is pagan crap from the Roman Catholic Church.

No, it's a fundamental Christian belief, which makes you anti-christ in that you are the enemy of Christianity and work to replace it with a religion you made up.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by ixiy

 

I think your opinions are not rooted in the words of Christ in which you can read in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Revelation).

He is not going to ask you to sacrifice your children, but if you think he is bluffing about destroying you if you continue to live in wickedness the only thing i can say to that is test him, but you only get one chance. If you think he is lying when he says you will be destroyed, you better think again. He is long suffering but one day his patience will wear out. If you think he is not a wrathful God, stick around a few more years and i promise you, in this decade you will see things that will make you fall on your face in fear.

I don't want to see anyone perish but i have grown weary of this world and it's prevailing evil and i am ready for Adonai (the Master) to return and put a stop to all this warmongering, money loving, murdering and selfishness that pervades this world and he is the only one who can stop it.

Call me what you will but i am ready to see his return even if i have to die for it.

Does 'Wickedness' to God include not 'Giving in' to God seeing how big God is on loyalty?

I will say it again, Truly Benevolent Beings do not place Loyalty as the highest vaule as God has repeated done, If God was to place ethical virtues and the decency in a persons heart above all others, few would have any problems with this 'God'

I can see the 'Love' in God's heart with his threats and promises to destroy and condemn souls for all eternity but If it uses 'Fear' or the unlimites power of the universe to try to win people over together with some carrot rewards, it does not work with people with stronger characters.

It also does not seem to stop anti-social behaviour in his followers either, what makes it worse is the fact that the followers of God... in this case, religion, are doing similar things with threats and fear disguise as love.

In your post are you not using fear as the main point to of God's promise? Are you not assuming that i maybe 'wicked' if I have not accepted your God as the only way to not be 'wicked'?

Even if you are using God's statements and not your own, you are still spreading it's message of 'Fear'.

I think you may have been condition to think that your God is the only true way, that all others are evil, wicked, that good cannot exist outside of God.

Take this much further, and perhaps a new witch hunt will begin to cleanse all the 'wicked' from this world, it happened before, and it will happen again.

If God was so Righteous, I would imagine that It would do something about the wars between the religions that came out form God's words.

I am afraid I view your 'God' as a really bad example to follow, no matter what kind of power it has, it doesn't impress me. It's followers wisdom seem to be as limited as their 'God', less fear, more wisdom perhaps.

When you do meet your God ask it why it vaules loyalty above the decency in a persons heart...

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

but you only get one chance.

Respectfully disagree there. You get all the chances you need. You die, and are allowed a chance to review, and to be advised and think about what lessons you still need. You return. You deal with that lifetime, and learn something new. And then it repeats, until you are ready to be united again with the Divine, the One, the Source of all.

It takes many, many lifetimes here on earth, but we all eventually will get there....THAT is the Divine patience and love that is the Divinity.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

There is no Trinity, that is pagan crap from the Roman Catholic Church.

No, it's a fundamental Christian belief, which makes you anti-christ in that you are the enemy of Christianity and work to replace it with a religion you made up.

Riiiight. You have a bug up your ass about accusing people of being anti-christ. I seem to recall Jesus saying "I am in my Father and he is in Me" when he was addressing philip after he said "show us the Father and it is enough for us". Here it is:

John 14 :8-11

Philip said to Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."
Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. The person that has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you truly believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don't come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done."

If i am wrong then so be it, it just means i have the interpretation of it wrong, it doesn't make me anti-christ. Do you even know what anti-christ means? I doubt it from the things you say and how you are quick to judge and accuse. One might even say you are anti-christ if you want to play that game.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Do you even know what anti-christ means?

I just explained what I meant by the term since people seem to have a problem understanding the prefix, anti, for some reason. When I say anti, I mean in opposition to the genuine, and the attempt to replace it for a fake version.
I am pretty sure I already said that.
There is a regular, original version of Christianity which has this concept of the trinity in that there is a holy Spirit which Jesus talked about as an entity which is personified, and then there is Jesus who by being the natural son of God makes him by definition also a god. So you end up with a total of three persons being god in some manner who are involved in the church in a direct god to creation relationship and you can not find a version which predates this concept. The garbage is your rhetoric.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

... that is pagan crap from the Roman Catholic Church.

Funny how YOUR religion is made up from many items stolen from "crap".
So....if you are a follower...that makes you crap as well, doesn't it. ha ha ha.....how ya doing crap boy.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
.....I am in my Father and he is in Me.......

.

OK, enough with the sexual abuse stuff.....we all know it happens, you do not need to advertise it.