McVeigh's Death Certificate Lists His True Occupation and Employer At Time Of Death

reply to post by ludwigvonmises003

You're entitled to your opinion as I am my own. I believe that there is no such thing as "collateral damage" in domestic terrorism, regardless of who one believes the perpetrator or puppet master might be.

reply to post by timidgal


But still its used by West in place of extermination,murder or genocide.

reply to post by randomname


Revisionist (read: armchair) historians will claim that McVeigh was the "good guy" and the government were the "bad guys". This is what happens when you spend too much time watching cable news. These are the same folks that claim that the civil war was NOT started over slavery.

If McVeigh was such a good guy, why did he kill so many innocent people that day? Why did he read the "Turner Diaries" as well? Sounds to me like he was one of them.

reply to post by ludwigvonmises003

We're getting off topic.

Again, I respect your right to have your opinion as you should respect my right to the same. I feel that McVeigh was not a patsy. That was the question elicited by the OP. You obviously feel the same since you consider McVeigh a patriot and hero.

No more off topic banter. Have a good evening.

Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Atleast he stood up to the gubbermint.You?

militia do not have nuclear missiles or tanks or f-22's so militia have to fight via guerilla tactics

edit on 17-12-2011 by ludwigvonmises003 because: (no reason given)

Whatever I do or don't do is irrelevant to the topic here. I certainly don't build bombs, let alone massive truck bombs. I certainly don't support acts of domestic terrorism, and McVeigh pretty much defines that in our modern age.

If standing up to the Government means casually killing innocent people to symbolically strike at federal offices, then I'll certainly agree that I don't 'stand up'. However, McVeigh did and that is what matters to the topic. He never denied it and actually took some degree of pride in it.

The 'anything goes' approach for the means to an end is exactly what brought us to this position in our nation. Following that from the opposite direction by using tactics like McVeigh for bringing about change is insane and simply turns people into the worst of what they hated to begin with.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Explanation: Acts of domestic terrorism eh?

How about you have a look at these examples of Domestic Terrorism!

Ruby Ridge [wiki]

Waco Seige [wiki]

MKULTRA [wiki]

Try those out and they don't convince you I HAVE MANY MANY MORE Examples!

Hmmmm let me see now? ... oh yes!

Here ... Timothy McVeigh [wiki]

Why he did what he did ...

McVeigh, a militia movement sympathizer, sought revenge against the federal government for its handling of the Waco Siege, which had ended in the deaths of 76 people two years earlier, as well as for the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992, and conducted the bombing exactly two years after the Waco Siege ended.

And a possible lead ...

It is claimed that while visiting friends in Decker, Michigan, McVeigh complained that the Army had implanted him with a microchip into his buttocks so that the government could keep track of him.

Personal Disclosure: Who were the terrorists? .. oh yeah ... it was the USA Federal Government!

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Good ,I left a nation of patsies who can't stand up to Tyranny of feds.People like you are the reason why neo-cons are so powerful

reply to post by OmegaLogos

lol.... I'm not taking that particular bait. We could go pages....or give the Moderators a chunk of ban bait by running off about those events. I'm not even offering my opinion on them, as I don't see where they have much to do about anything here.

To the extent that they are being pointed to as justification for the Oklahoma City Bombing, I'll just say that there is no justification to be found there. Revenge for any previous event can somehow make right the murder of 168 innocent people? When did becoming what we fight become not only acceptable, but admirable?

It seems to me that when an 18 or 19 year old kid has fallen into that pit while wearing the Uniform during the wars, we call it murder...and rightly so in a few cases. For McVeigh though, it's hero material? Really?

If I were of a mind to actively resist a national government...which I'm not....I could certainly come up with very annoying, if not crippling ideas that wouldn't cost a single innocent life. However, that is one major difference between fighting to win and terrorism.

Fighting to win doesn't need or particularly want public attention...that isn't who the effort is meant for and publicity is actually counter-productive. Terrorism requires that attention and that IS the whole point, IMO.

Originally posted by timidgal
reply to post by Signals

 

I get that and I guess this is an instance where we can agree to disagree because to me, his statements are a clear affirmation that there was no one pulling his strings.


en.wikipedia.org...

Well there are "operators" out there looking for that perfect "mark". Onec Tim was made as a good candidate he was helped and led along by others that simply vanished when the job was done. Tims lack of remorse was simply a symptom of what drove him and what made him useable.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Atleast he stood up to the gubbermint.You?

militia do not have nuclear missiles or tanks or f-22's so militia have to fight via guerilla tactics

edit on 17-12-2011 by ludwigvonmises003 because: (no reason given)

Whatever I do or don't do is irrelevant to the topic here. I certainly don't build bombs, let alone massive truck bombs. I certainly don't support acts of domestic terrorism, and McVeigh pretty much defines that in our modern age.

Yes Tim is the poster boy.....how convenient. Looks to convenient. His maddness used to define all. The McViegh beat down card. Having that sort of PR stooge to work with has been a boon. The same way that Dillinger, Nelson and Barrow catapulted the FBI forward so guys like McViegh have been used to give DHLS a great deal of import.

Now you take the drug/gang/murder culture that goes on and has been going on in the cities of this country for years. Who are the posterboys for this killing mechine? Rappers. They drive that culture, are its cheerleaders, its propagandists, give it a face and a song and yet they are lionize.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Explanation: Acts of domestic terrorism eh?

How about you have a look at these examples of Domestic Terrorism!

Ruby Ridge [wiki]

Waco Seige [wiki]

MKULTRA [wiki]

Try those out and they don't convince you I HAVE MANY MANY MORE Examples!

Hmmmm let me see now?

... oh yes!

Here ... Timothy McVeigh [wiki]

Why he did what he did ...

McVeigh, a militia movement sympathizer, sought revenge against the federal government for its handling of the Waco Siege, which had ended in the deaths of 76 people two years earlier, as well as for the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992, and conducted the bombing exactly two years after the Waco Siege ended.

And a possible lead ...

It is claimed that while visiting friends in Decker, Michigan, McVeigh complained that the Army had implanted him with a microchip into his buttocks so that the government could keep track of him.

Personal Disclosure: Who were the terrorists?

.. oh yeah ... it was the USA Federal Government!

Neither Ruby Ridge nor Waco involved individuals who are thought to have been government patsies or puppets or victims of MKULTRA. At Ruby Ridge, Randy Weaver went head to head with the government and both sides lost. The government was eventually found culpable for the incident. Waco involved a wacko, David Koresh, who went around molesting young women and sacrificed the lives of many of his loyal followers rather than flee the burning compound (the fire was found to have been started by the government). Again, both sides went head to head but no MKULTRA claims here.

Tim McVeigh's murder of 168 people, including 19 children under the age of six, in no way compares to those other incidents. He claims to have had a microchip inserted into his butt so the government could keep track of him - no claims here about the purpose being to control him (aka MKULTRA). This could just as easily be interpreted to mean that he was narcissistic enough to think that they were worried about what he might do. It should also be noted that:

Timothy McVeigh [wiki]

McVeigh aspired to join the United States Army Special Forces (SF). After returning from the Gulf War, he entered the selection program to become an SF soldier, but he quit after his psychological profile categorized him as very unsuitable for SF.

AND

Larry Whicher, whose brother died in the attack, described McVeigh as having "A totally expressionless, blank stare. He had a look of defiance and that if he could, he'd do it all over again.

AND

McVeigh had contemplated suicide on many occasions. Anticipating that he would probably be caught and executed, he referred to the bombing as "state-assisted suicide".

I'm sorry but to me this sounds like someone with severe mental problems and a death wish; not someone the government would choose to control for their nefarious purposes.

reply to post by Logarock

I'm not saying that this type of mind control and manipulation NEVER happens - I just don't know and even though it's pretty far out there, I'm willing to concede that it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility but with McVeigh, there were too many other scornful and hurtful comments made to both the family members of his victims, as well as his own mother, to think that all of his actions were outside of his control. Again, this is my opinion.

Originally posted by Signals
So why is he still listed as a soldier in the doc?

Either clerical/human error on the part of the person filling out the certificate or McVeigh gave false information for the certificate because he was still hell bent on screwing the United States of America and wanted people to still be talking about him and/or his 'cause' years later.

Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
Mcvleigh was a patriot and hero.ell

You are one sick puppy.
The dead children and their parents give testimony to just the opposite.

reply to post by timidgal


Explanation: Uhmmm?

I'm sorry but to me this sounds like someone with severe mental problems and a death wish; not someone the government would choose to control for their nefarious purposes.

There already had used him for their nefarious purposes!

Here is proof of that ... [it was linked as the .pdf in the OP btw :shk: ]





Personal Disclosure: Overlooking the obvious won't help your argument much!

Originally posted by timidgal

I'm sorry but to me this sounds like someone with severe mental problems and a death wish; not someone the government would choose to control for their nefarious purposes.

Hay this was a nice post. You may want to bone up. Tim is just the sort to use one just have to know how to use them. Tim would not have known anyone "helping" him out was a G-Man. Tim was willing to be used. He got to be the star man! He thought it all revolved around him. All you have to do is feed a guy like that. They are bull headed and dont pay much attention to the periphery. All they would have to do is be sure not to blow their cover, make him feel like a hero and feed into his anti social paranoida.

Its a bit diffrent but look at the way suicide bomers in the east are set up and used by their handlers. Although there is more of the game out in the open, the boomers train of thought is nurtured by propaganda, encouraged by the world he runs in ect. There may even be a good deal of basic misfiring in the killers brain that makes him or her a good candidate, the foundation of the mind deformed out of shape from anything considered normal for humans but thats fine. Now fill that void with all sorts of propaganda, twisted religion. hate, your photo on the wall of martyrs, hay and maybe even a cash payment to your loved ones and you have a controllabel nut job. After all how does a guy end up in a crowded bus with a ball bearing vest straped to him?

Originally posted by timidgal
reply to post by Logarock

 

I'm not saying that this type of mind control and manipulation NEVER happens - I just don't know and even though it's pretty far out there, I'm willing to concede that it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility but with McVeigh, there were too many other scornful and hurtful comments made to both the family members of his victims, as well as his own mother, to think that all of his actions were outside of his control. Again, this is my opinion.

Right. But i am not saying that all his actions were out of his control. Someone like Tim if he is going to be used must be led to believe he is in control and the whole thing was his idea.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Explanation: BS!

The FBI Building was a valid military target and as such placing a child care center in it was both illegal and immoral!

The USA is not allowed to use human shields OK!

Personal Disclosure: Who enabled these 19 childrens deaths ... THE US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!

On April 19, 1995, McVeigh drove the truck to the front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building just as its offices opened for the day. Before arriving, he stopped to light a 5 minute fuse. At 09:02, a large explosion destroyed the north half of the building. The explosion killed 168 people, including nineteen children in the day care center on the second floor, and injured 450 others.

McVeigh noted that he had no knowledge that the federal offices also ran a daycare center on the second floor of the building, and noted that he might have chosen a different target if he had known about the daycare center. According to Michel and Herbeck, McVeigh claimed not to have known there was a daycare center in the Murrah Building and said that if he had known it, in his own words:

It might have given me pause to switch targets. That's a large amount of collateral damage.

Michel and Herbeck quote McVeigh, with whom they spoke for some 75 hours, on his attitude to the victims:

To these people in Oklahoma who have lost a loved one, I'm sorry but it happens every day. You're not the first mother to lose a kid, or the first grandparent to lose a grandson or a granddaughter. It happens every day, somewhere in the world. I'm not going to go into that courtroom, curl into a fetal ball and cry just because the victims want me to do that.

McVeigh later said he considered "a campaign of individual assassination," with "eligible" targets including Attorney-General Janet Reno, Judge Walter S. Smith Jr. of Federal District Court, who handled the Branch Davidian trial and Lon Horiuchi, a member of the FBI hostage-rescue team who shot and killed Vicki Weaver in a standoff at a remote cabin at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in 1992. He said he wanted Reno to accept "full responsibility in deed, not just words." However, such an assassination seemed too difficult, and he decided that since federal agents had become soldiers, it was necessary to strike against them at their command centers. Moreover, according to American Terrorist, ultimately he decided that he would make the loudest statement by bombing a federal building. After the bombing, he would come to have some ambivalence about his act, as expressed in letters to his hometown newspaper that he sometimes wished he had carried out a series of assassinations against police and government officials instead.

During his time in prison, McVeigh wrote various essays. An Essay on Hypocrisy describes the U.S. Government as hypocritical for justifying its attack on Iraq by stating that Iraq should not be allowed to stockpile weapons of mass destruction because it had used them in the past. He cited Hiroshima and Nagasaki as examples of the U.S. using nuclear weapons in the past. On April 26, 2001, he wrote a letter to Fox News, I Explain Herein Why I Bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, which explicitly laid out his reasons for the attack. McVeigh read Unintended Consequences and noted that if it had come out a few years earlier, he would have given serious consideration to using sniper attacks in a war of attrition against the government instead of bombing a federal building:

If people say The Turner Diaries was my Bible, Unintended Consequences would be my New Testament. I think Unintended Consequences is a better book. It might have changed my whole plan of operation if I'd read that one first.

He sounds VERY REASONABLE AND LOGICAL TO ME!

Personal Disclosure: I specifically study The USA, Timothy McVeigh's, Jared Loughner's [aka Erad3] and Andrew Brievick's methods and actions and motivations at the deepest levels! You may want to reconsider your ignorance on this issue ok!

Because if you endorse the using of innocent and non consenting child human shields at a valid military target, then exactly who is a 'sick puppy' ?

P.S. Also I have a plethora of instances where the USA military has killed innocent children in other countries [including innocent US citizens who were children] and not given a damn about the collateral damage done!

I have one word for you to study for homework ok! HYPOCRACY!

Please learn what it meens and get back to me ok!

reply to post by Logarock

Logarock - I'm pretty astute when it comes to the topic of psychology but that's a whole other thread, as is the topic of Tim McVeigh conspiracy theory (which was probably discussed to death in prior threads long before I was a member here at ATS).

Basically, the OP was about whether or not his death certificate reveiled who his "real" employer was at his time of death and the suspicious nature of "Soldier" being listed. I think we pretty much put that to bed with a determination of the small wording on his death certificate which reads "Occupation (Give kind of work done during most of working life. Do not use retired.)"

I end this debate with all due respect and will see you around the boards. Have a great day!

TG

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
reply to post by timidgal

 

Explanation: Uhmmm?

I'm sorry but to me this sounds like someone with severe mental problems and a death wish; not someone the government would choose to control for their nefarious purposes.

There already had used him for their nefarious purposes!

Here is proof of that ... [it was linked as the .pdf in the OP btw :shk: ]

Personal Disclosure:

Overlooking the obvious won't help your argument much!

^^^^Geez - take your own "personal disclosure" advice and read through the entire thread. This issue was already put to bed on page one.

reply to post by OmegaLogos

And you are a sick puppy too. :shk:

Originally posted by timidgal
I'm pretty astute when it comes to the topic of psychology ...

My degree is psychology. It's and old and dusty degree, but the basics are still there. From what I'm seeing on this thread, I'm thinking there are a whole lotta' people out there in serious need of some counseling. The people of the USA are NOT at war with the FBI. A day care center is NOT a valid military target. American civilians are NOT the enemy. Their children are NOT the enemy. And using the piss-poor excuse that 'civilians' are killed overseas in wars doesn't fly. There was no need to blow up that building and kill all those people. To believe it was necessary is paranoid and delusional .. and most likely pathological.

The title and topic of this thread - McVeighs death certificate occupation listing - the occupation listed was wrong. It's just that simple. Use some logic. If he was some super-secret-shadow-gov't stooge, then that super-secret-shadow-gov't wouldn't go and list it on his death certificate. Use some common sense people ...

Was McVeigh doing some shadow gov't bidding? Maybe. Maybe not. But ask yourselves .. What would some super-secret-shadow-gov't want him to blow up an FBI building for? What purpose? And if he supposedly was on the other side ... an EX-Super-Secret-Shadow-Gov't stooge going back and sticking it to his former bosses ... do you really think that FBI building was the HQ for it ?? Really? They'd really be working out of an FBI building with a day care and a bank etc etc .. in the open ... for everyone to see??