McVeigh's Death Certificate Lists His True Occupation and Employer At Time Of Death

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posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 07:27 AM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I wouldn't read anything into this. McVeigh was a nut-job and menace to society. The world is definitely a better place without him.


Judgemental much?
Maybe you should read his letter to Fox News.
www.digital-exp.com...

People like you certainly has a lot to learn from people like him.
And in his own words:


Many foreign nations and peoples hate Americans for the very reasons most Americans loathe me. Think about that. There are most likely many lessons in my story. Americans have the choice to try to learn from me (which is why I cooperated with the authors of American Terrorist), or they can choose to remain ignorant, and suffer the consequences.




posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 07:37 AM
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reply to post by NeoVain
 


That building was destroyed from the Inside and blown outwards

.the truck was a ruse. Do some research ffs.

Mcveigh bought it too..the brainwashed are so easy.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 07:45 AM
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reply to post by timidgal
 


Explanation: Don't get confused now!


The US Federal Government has been in the War Is a Racket [wiki] business for a VERY LONG TIME!

And here is the inside whistleblowing US MILITARY expert who enlightened me to that FACT!

Major General, US Marine and 2 x MEDAL OF HONOUR recipient Smedley Butler [wiki]

So the US Federal Government has been up to nefarious dirty deeds for a very long time now!

And the US Federal Government employed and trained and sent Timothy McVeigh to WAR!

In other words ... TPTB of your nation agreed that he was a good soldier and McVeigh even retired with an HONOURABLE discharge.


So when your post had cherry picked bits from the wiki and made a claim which I felt was false, OL took that opportunity to deny your ignorance on that issue alone by using what was already available and common knowledge [that he did INDEED work for the US government in a nefarious business capacity as a soldier in the US armed forces!] and the death certificate shows that FACT regardless of whether he was working for them or not at the time of the bombing.

Personal Disclosure: I wasn't replying to you on the issue of the thread ... I was replying to you on a claim you made! Note the difference!


You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to discredit it!


Remember it was you who interjected between my and Wrabbit2000's reply debate and therefor you only have yourself to blame for getting
by my reply which was totally on topic as regards to claims YOUR POST MADE!

edit on 17-12-2011 by OmegaLogos because: Edited to add 2 x to Smedley Butlers no# of awarded Medals of Honour.
My apologies Sir!



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 08:34 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Explanation: I didn't call you a "sick puppy" ... I simply asked you!


You however have called 2 members sick puppies so far in this thread and as a gold trim member I expect more and better from you ok!

My proof ...

Exhibit A] reply to post by FlyersFan
 



Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003

Mcvleigh was a patriot and hero.ell


You are one sick puppy.
The dead children and their parents give testimony to just the opposite.


Exhibit B] reply to post by FlyersFan
 



reply to post by OmegaLogos

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And you are a sick puppy too. :shk:


Exhibit C] reply to post by OmegaLogos
 



Because if you endorse the using of innocent and non consenting child human shields at a valid military target, then exactly who is a 'sick puppy' ?


Please raise your game!


The people of the USA are NOT at war with the FBI.


I think the innocent people [such as the children] at Waco would disagree ...


Upon the ATF's failure to execute the search warrant, a siege was initiated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.



A day care center is NOT a valid military target.


I 100% AGEE! No arguments from me on THAT issue ... BUT the FBI building certainly was a valid military target. The presence of the day care was illegal.


American civilians are NOT the enemy.


LMAO ... the USA is in so many wars that I am forced to cherry pick some examples where American civilians are considered the enemy.

War on Terror!

Patriot Act!

TSA and airport security!

Need I go on?



Their children are NOT the enemy.


I 100% agree that innocent children should never be targeted OR PUT IN HARMS WAY say by putting a childrens day care center on the 2nd floor of a valid military target as human shields!

When children are placed in harms way DELIBERATELTY they unfortunately become victims of collateral damage which is clearly acceptable to the USA's TPTB and Military Industrial Corporate Conglomerate because ...


And using the piss-poor excuse that 'civilians' are killed overseas in wars doesn't fly.


Is a clear case of National Hypocracy!

Now remember what OL posted in reply to you...


I have one word for you to study for homework ok! HYPOCRACY!




There was no need to blow up that building and kill all those people. To believe it was necessary is paranoid and delusional .. and most likely pathological.


I agree as did McVeigh really achieve his primary mission objective???



The title and topic of this thread - McVeighs death certificate occupation listing - the occupation listed was wrong. It's just that simple. Use some logic. If he was some super-secret-shadow-gov't stooge, then that super-secret-shadow-gov't wouldn't go and list it on his death certificate. Use some common sense people ...


You obviously have never heard the military jargon terminology used such as "FUBAH" and "SNAFU" have you?



Was McVeigh doing some shadow gov't bidding? Maybe. Maybe not. But ask yourselves .. What would some super-secret-shadow-gov't want him to blow up an FBI building for? What purpose?


To Cause Fear and Intimidation within CONUS and make it look like someone else was at fault!


And if he supposedly was on the other side ... an EX-Super-Secret-Shadow-Gov't stooge going back and sticking it to his former bosses ... do you really think that FBI building was the HQ for it ?? Really? They'd really be working out of an FBI building with a day care and a bank etc etc .. in the open ... for everyone to see??


Nothing better than hiding in plain sight if one can get away with it! Ask some assassins about that!

Or better yet ask your own government about black projects to do with stealth and invisibility etc.


Personal Disclosure:
Overlooking the obvious won't help your argument much!



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 

Are you serious? You're scorning me??

I have to tell you that this response is just so irrelevant to what I’ve been saying, I can't begin to relate to it in any way, shape or form. So you're saying that ANYONE who enlists as a soldier in the US military is operating in a nefarious business capacity??? How unbelievably insulting to all those young men and women…

Do you really think that I'm naive enough to believe that our military machine is lily white pure and is not, at its very core, a profit-earning business? Of course it is – I know that without having to cite some form of disclosure from a military big wig - but what on earth does that have to do with the topic at hand? Of course McVeigh was trained and sent to war - that is what a soldier does in times of war. Why are you so shocked by that or think that's some type of shocking and unbelievable revelation?

The only thing the death certificate proves is that for the majority of his adult life, he was a soldier in the US military and why wouldn't he have retired with an honorable discharge? He was probably a very good soldier, especially during a time of war, so what does that have to do with anything and why wouldn’t he have ended his military career with an honorable discharge? No one said anything about his being a bad soldier or engaging in behavior or activities that would have led to a dishonorable discharge. All that was said was that there was something in his psychological profile that made him ineligible for Special Forces when his original tour(s) was/were over.

The incorrectness of your comments make your insults, and your unrelated personal disclosures, that much more embarrassing for you and that much more a waste of my time.

This is THE LAST TIME I am going to say this in words that anyone can understand. Yes, McVeigh was a soldier in the US army. Yes, he was trained by the government to whom he pledged to serve in that capacity. Yes, he carried out what he had signed up for during a time of war. The fact that he was a soldier for the majority of his adult life (hence the reason his death certificate was worded as such) does not mean that he was part of some military conspiracy or brain washed to kill nearly 200 people. I'm now done with this topic.


MBF

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 09:06 AM
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I wonder why they had to cremate his body. No evidence.....



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by OmegaLogos
You however have called 2 members sick puppies so far in this thread and as a gold trim member I expect more and better from you ok!

1 - I don't care what you expect.
2 - What I posted was accurate.
3 - Being a 'gold trim member'? ... whatever ...


My proof ...

Sweetie .. ya' don't need to pull up 'proof' of the fact that I said two people here are sick puppies for saying the Day Care Center and the civilians who were murdered were just 'collateral damage' in some strange war they think is going on - civilians vs FBI - and that bombing FBI buildings is 'heroic' .... it's right there on the thread for everyone to see and I'll be happy to point it out for anyone who wants to see it.

As for WACO ... that was ignorance on both sides ... those in the compound were morons for following a brainless cult and for sacrificing their kids to a cult lead by a complete whacko. Those who did the raid were absolute morons because they could have easily arrested Koresh in when he went jogging outside the compound each day. That's just stupidity .. not war.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


You base this all on second-hand accounts and seem to revel in the fact someone was "put-down" for this atrocity. What makes you different then Mcveigh? He did what he did out of belief that those he was hurting were part of a nefarious plan.

He was part of a nefarious plan to kill people and you are happy he is dead for it.

Seems your both the same types of people to me. He felt like killing in this regard is justified, and in your mind you are too. While you didn't pull the trigger, it seems you would of been happy too.

Murderers are always obvious about their intentions aren't they? LOL
edit on 17-12-2011 by EspyderMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Before you go all righteous, remember, every nation kills innocents. Most especially the USA in muslim countries and they all do it in the name of righteousness.
Mcveigh is no different then any soldier in the US Army/Navy.

Your down playing of conspiracies in this instance shows your true ignorance in these matters. Those events led to where we are today, to deny this is a ploy to get us into war, is to not remember the past. We are repeating it but some people refuse to open their eyes. They give themselves excuses to become executioners instead.
edit on 17-12-2011 by EspyderMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by timidgal
 


While I agree, the opposite is also a possibility. Why you wrote a book explaining it is beyond me.
Don't be angry over other people's opposite views.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by EspyderMan
Before you go all righteous, remember, every nation kills innocents.

1 - I'm not 'all righteous'. Just factual.
2 - McVeigh wasn't a nation. He was a nutter who murdered innocent civilians .. innocent children.

Mcveigh is no different then any soldier in the US Army/Navy.

That's dead wrong. I'm a veteran and I don't go around blowing up FBI buildings and day care centers in the heart of America. None of my veteran friends or relatives do. As far as I know, he's the only one to do so. He is VERY different than the soldiers of the US Army/Navy. Oh .. and he wasn't active duty .. he was a veteran. He wasn't in an army and he wasn't representing a nation ...

Your down playing of conspiracies in this instance shows your true ignorance in these matters.

1 - I'm not 'down playing' anything.
2 - I'm not showing 'true ignorance' in these matters. I'm actually using my common sense as well as my psychology degree to state the obvious ... a person isn't a hero for blowing up FBI buildings, for mass murdering US civilians, for mass murdering children in a day care center in the heartland. That person either has a sick pathology or is evil .. or both.

As for conspiracies .. that's another matter. There were reports of another person involved. Initial reports had it a man, olive skinned and dark hair. As for conspiracies ... McVeigh may have teamed up with enemies of this country .. to blow up American buildings ... to mass murder American civilians .... yep, ya' wanna' talk about conspiracies .... not very 'heroic' of him.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by filosophia
Oswald also had military ties; these people never are just randoms off the street, the cia researchs well in advance by picking the best patsy for the job.



And, ATS is a perfect breeding ground for potential patsy candidates.

"_______ was heavily involved in conspiracy discussions, and was a longtime and frequent member to a Conspiracy website known as Above Top Secret, posting under the screen name, SquirrelNutz. [Investigative Repoters] uncovered as many as 100 posts that contained anti-government sentiments or other terrorist-like suggestions."




posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by NeoVain
 


I agree.

When I think of McVeigh I always think of the chapter in The Turner Diaries where they blow up the government building (same way) then they go back after the explosion. The chapter seems to be trying to justify the collateral damage to the reader. The letter and interview you linked gives alot of insight into his thinking. I think alot of people have a similar mindset to McVeigh right now. The lines between a 'terrorist' and a 'freedom fighter' have never been so blurred.

I like that conversation in the movie Clerks where they are discussing the likelyhood of innocents being inside the Death Star when the Rebel Alliance blew it up. There must have been some.But we cheered when Luke blew up the Death Star.

McVeigh reminds me of Luke Skywalker in alot of ways. I dont agree with what he did but I can understand his thinking. I think he was a good person that could no longer be passive and complicit in a psychotic world.


A: Most of the insults are meritless and quite often absurd, so I don't pay them much attention. Hitler? Absurd. (Geraldo Rivera uses this same analogy, so Keating and Ashcroft are in good company!) Coward? This label would make Orwell proud - it is double think at its finest. Collateral Damage? As an American news junkie; a military man; and a Gulf War veteran, where do they think I learned that? (It sure as hell wasn't Osami Bin Laden!)


I liked that part of the interview the best. Says alot about his mindset.

He doesnt seem to be a victim of 'MK Ultra' to me. Thats not to say he couldnt still be a patsy of sorts.
edit on 17-12-2011 by theovermensch because: typo
edit on 17-12-2011 by theovermensch because: typo



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by randomname
if you are going to go after people in the shadow government, you should at least learn their name.

i'm going after hitler, but i'm going to blow up everybody from albany new york to germany.

that's how much sense that theory is.

Actually If you were going to manipulate a simple minded trusting patriotic person to commit a crime so as to discredit militias. You could play on their "patriotism":" Kill these folksand You'd be saving the country.." Dupe him into committing the act for your own nefarious reasons.... It's plausible; no(?)



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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I've heard that a fertilizer bomb wouldn't take out that building so efficiently and people have said that it was a controlled demolition type thing much like the WTC but it's pretty tough to say at this point.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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I don't see what all the fuss and namecalling is about. It clearly says "Was Decedent a US Veteran: Yes" followed by "Year Last Served In Armed Forces: 1991" What I find somewhat interesting is box 15, "Was Decedent of Hispanic Origin?" and "if Yes Specify Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, etc." Why would they ask that? What's the significance? Why not any other racial background?



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by timidgal
 

If anyone here thinks this was not an inside job then I will offer you one challenge. Just go and watch any of the dozens of surrveilance tapes that were aimed at the bldg that morning. Oh , you can't find one , the Gov hasn't released them yet ....case closed , you can stick your head back in the sand now ,go back to sleep little baby.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Atleast he stood up to the gubbermint.You?


militia do not have nuclear missiles or tanks or f-22's so militia have to fight via guerilla tactics
edit on 17-12-2011 by ludwigvonmises003 because: (no reason given)
Criminie Ludwig you are a deluded soul to even suggest that he was justified



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
in wars there is collateral damage.He was fighting against the trotskyite commies and fascists in the govt.So like people who are sheeple end up being casualties for they were at the wrong place at wrong time.


Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
Mcvleigh was a patriot and hero.


Originally posted by OmegaLogos
He sounds VERY REASONABLE AND LOGICAL TO ME!


Originally posted by NeoVain
People like you certainly has a lot to learn from people like him.


Originally posted by theovermensch
McVeigh reminds me of Luke Skywalker in alot of ways.]



This is the freakiest thread I've seen in a long time. Pretty damn spooky too.
It's this kind of junk that makes me wonder about the state of peoples minds in the USA,
and on ATS. Paranoid conspiracy discussion is one thing ... but this is just
and
downright spooky.

I'm out of this discussion. One of these nutballs would probably think I'm an enemy soldier
or something and then try to hunt me down, blow me up, kill the neighbors,
and then say they are just 'collateral damage'.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


It says "Decedent's Usual Occupation"

So what was written there was true; his usual occupation was soldier.





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