The thread that will never get a real answer

Originally posted by WakeUpRiseUp
Prove god is real and that you dont believe in fairy tales.

God:

We have God's Word, which is Proven (you wanted proof) to be a single document, written by a more-than-human intelligence, by the mathematical coding discovered by Ivan Panin. This alone, makes my faith unshakable. Study up on what Panin discovered, and you will be amazed. The discovery converted Panin himself, from a skeptic to a Christian.

We have fulfilled prophecy, which was always fulfilled with exactness and a very, very slim probability of happening by chance. Only God could have seen the end from the beginning.

We have nature, which at least one Bible writer said, should be sufficient proof.

We have the evidence of countless people who died happily under horrible circumstances, because they knew God was with them. Read Fox'x Book of Martyrs and you will begin to see it.

We have answered prayer, subjective to be sure, but very real to those who have prayed and been answered.

We have the scientific evidence from both the creationist and non-creationist sides, indicating God.

There is more, I'm sure, but that is what I can think of right now.



Fairy Tales:

I do believe in fairy tales on a certain level. I take the archetype of the evil stepmother very seriously, for instance. Or, there is Cinderella, which I take as an allegory of the plight of good people in this present evil world system.



Your thread title tells me that you do not really want proof, however.

reply to post by Prezbo369


OK, I will help you with the fallacy which is your arg.
There is more evidence in this thread alone, let alone the mountains of historical references in song, books, poetry, etc... of those influenced by scripture and scripture itself, than there is that you are real.
You could be a bot, unthinking, unemotional and inanimate. All we have is some text that might imply a sentient being.
But prove it to me you are not a poser, a bot or even human.
You can be a reptilian for all we know.
You simply do not exist to the known world outside of an opinionated text. And this is a recent post is it not?
Now after thousands of years we have civilization influenced by a man, some know as the risen Lord, which was witnessed by hundreds after He died on the cross.
And many gave up their lives in belief of this resurrected state of the man they knew walked among them.
You on the other hand have no chance of bearing witness to yourself as you cannot prove by any anecdotal
evidence that you are even sentient.
But go ahead and spout all the nonsense you want.
What would anyone expect from an automoton???

Originally posted by WakeUpRiseUp
Prove god is real and that you dont believe in fairy tales.

Prove to me that you (the viewer and the consciousness), in all your magnanimous and complicated interpretation and expression, are purely a construct of biological combinations.

And then I'll stop thinking that it is the non-spiritualist that believes in fiction.

I cannot prove to anyone else that you are real.
No one else can prove to me that you are real.
But, you can prove to me that you are real.

I cannot prove to you that God is real.
No one else can prove to me that God is real.
But, God can prove to me (and has proven) that He is real.

That being so, why do ask for proof from another?
Why not ask God?

You should have been able to reason that out for yourself; but, there, I have done it for you-- providing you your sought after "real answer."

(And you thought the real answer was 42, didn't you? Ah! It must be time to build the Earth to provide the right question!)

Originally posted by manna2

There is more evidence in this thread alone, let alone the mountains of historical references in song, books, poetry, etc... of those influenced by scripture and scripture itself, than there is that you are real.

You seriously think songs, poems, influential passages and historical references are evidence for a universe creating entity(of your particular choice)? they are evidence for peoples beliefs, nothing more.

Originally posted by manna2

You could be a bot, unthinking, unemotional and inanimate. All we have is some text that might imply a sentient being.
But prove it to me you are not a poser, a bot or even human.
You can be a reptilian for all we know.

Now you're using your brain

Now be consistent and apply the same critical thinking to your beliefs.....

Originally posted by manna2

Now after thousands of years we have civilization influenced by a man, some know as the risen Lord, which was witnessed by hundreds after He died on the cross.
And many gave up their lives in belief of this resurrected state of the man they knew walked among them.

Influenced by a book, that makes claims, and is evidence of nothing other than the fact it was once written. The man, the witnesses, his death and resurrection exist only in this book.

Originally posted by manna2

You on the other hand have no chance of bearing witness to yourself as you cannot prove by any anecdotal
evidence that you are even sentient.
But go ahead and spout all the nonsense you want.
What would anyone expect from an automoton???

This is the problem it makes no difference whatsoever whether or not I exist. People are not killing themselves or each other because I may or may not exist.

When it comes to God, I'm not sure myself what's out there and what's not.
But I will share these interesting quotes that I found.

“Would you not say to yourself, “Some super-calculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule.” Of course you would…” - Allan Sandage

“The random emergence of even the simplest cell is comparable to the likelihood that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.” - Allan Sandage

“The chance of obtaining even a single functioning protein by chance combination of amino acids to a solar system full of blind men solving Rubik’s Cube simultaneously.” - Allan Sandage

Think about it, what could possibly have caused all time and space and matter and energy to exist rather than continue not existing for infinity? - Robert Jastrow

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Fred Hoyle

Now one thing's for certain; I don't believe in religion.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

“Would you not say to yourself, “Some super-calculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule.” Of course you would…” - Allan Sandage

“The random emergence of even the simplest cell is comparable to the likelihood that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.” - Allan Sandage

“The chance of obtaining even a single functioning protein by chance combination of amino acids to a solar system full of blind men solving Rubik’s Cube simultaneously.” - Allan Sandage

Think about it, what could possibly have caused all time and space and matter and energy to exist rather than continue not existing for infinity? - Robert Jastrow

These are all whats called arguments from ignorance, "I cannot explain why X happened, therefore I shall attribute it to my particular version of a god." They convince only the dullest of minds.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Fred Hoyle

This is a complete fallacy, Hoyle assumes his conclusion without even attempting to describe why it is true.

reply to post by Prezbo369


Food for thought though on the issue of intelligent design.
I believe in intelligent design, just not in religious gods.
I won't even begin to try and describe what I think God is, but my opinion is that reality is an intelligent design.
Why do I think this? I really don't know the answer.
There's no proof that we understand, to be 100% sure about anything.
Just like there's no 100% proof that it's not an intelligent design.

Just my personal opinion, nothing more.

No one can provide evidence like the one we want to see for both arguments.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

There's no proof that we understand, to be 100% sure about anything.
Just like there's no 100% proof that it's not an intelligent design.

This is true, we cannot be absolutely 100% sure of anything (well possibly apart from our own existence "I think therefore I am"), but we can be fairly certain. We cannot be 100% absolutely sure that the universe is not ran by a giant reptilian bird, or a purple invisible flying unicorn, or a spotted space frog, or a wandering desert jew etc etc. But we can be fairly certain, by collecting evidence from the world around us, and running repeatable verifiable experiments.

This is how we know Thor is not the god of thunder, and that Poseidon isn't the god of the sea.

But to accept claims because you cannot be 100% sure they arnt true, means you are going to accept any claim, which I'm sure you do not do. Its just that this claim makes you feel good.

reply to post by WakeUpRiseUp

Prove how God isn't real.

Originally posted by WakeUpRiseUp
Prove god is real and that you dont believe in fairy tales.

Ready? Our reality is a mirror of the Words in the Bible. What you read in the Bible is what happens in the world. God draws the future into the past before it happens. We read it in the word and then it happens as we pass the moment it occurs.

Isaiah 48

3 I foretold the former things long ago,
my mouth announced them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.
4 For I knew how stubborn you were;
your neck muscles were iron,
your forehead was bronze.
5 Therefore I told you these things long ago;
before they happened I announced them to you
so that you could not say,
‘My images brought them about;
my wooden image and metal god ordained them.’
6 You have heard these things; look at them all.
Will you not admit them?

Matthew 24

Real World Reflection

Isaiah 53

Jesus Birth and Life

The demise of Satan and the Victory of Man over him.

The Physics of God

Quanta and Light - More of the Physics of God

4000 Years of Jewish History

Reflected in God's promise to restore them to the land. This has never happened in History for any other people group. There are many passages that predict this. Here is one.

Isaiah 11:11
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

Here is another example of God's judgment predicted ahead.

The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6

"Then God said to Ezekiel,
'Now lie on your left side for 390 days
to show Israel will be punished for 390 years
by captivity and doom.
Each day you lie there represents
a year of punishment ahead for Israel.
Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side
for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment.
Each day will represent one year . . .'"
(Ezekiel 4:4-6)

390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes 'Israel'
+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes 'Judah'
= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel

Fulfillment

430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel
- 70 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity
= 360 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel

Where are the 360 years?

"And after all this, if you do not obey Me,
then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins."
(Leviticus 26:18)

"Then, if you walk contrary to Me,
and are not willing to obey Me,
I (God) will bring on you seven times more plagues,
according to your sins."
(Leviticus 26:21)

"And after all this,
if you do not obey Me,
but walk contrary to Me,
then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.:
(Leviticus 26:27-28)

"I (God) will scatter you among the nations
and draw a sword after you;
your Land shall be desolate
and your cities waste."
(Leviticus 26:33)

This is a factor of 7 (7X)

360 Remaining years of judgment
x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor
= 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel

360 day years for prophecies, then add the appropriate 'leap months' to the schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...

2,520 years
x 360 days
= 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity

907,200 days ÷ 365.25 days = 2,483.78 years of God's judgment remained


Now have another look.

606 B.C Israel taken into Babylonian captivity
- 70 Years for 70 years
= 536 B.C. End of first 70 years of judgment
+ 2483 Years Now add the 2,483 years remaining in this judgment
+ 1 Year Add 1 year because there is no "0" B.C. or A.D.
= 1948 AD! End of judgment against nation Israel

BOOM! God is right on time.

Matthew 24

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

1948 + 70 = 2018

Psalm 48 is the revelation of Israel becoming a nation.

Psalm 111 is the year of awakening. 2011

Psalm 112 is the beginning of the tribulation. 2012

Psalm 114 is the persecution of praise for God. 2014

Psalm 115 Anti-Christ revealed - 2015

Psalm 118 is the freedom of the captives and the gates of heaven opened to the righteous.

Psalm 119 is the recounting of the Hebrew Letters to reveal praise back to God once again.

Psalm 14 is WWI 1914

AND SO ON.

Sigh..............'Superior' band teacher please show why anyone should take the bible as truth, for anything, then you can c+p your customary bible passages as proof of your particular god.

reply to post by Prezbo369

But we can be fairly certain, by collecting evidence from the world around us, and running repeatable verifiable experiments.

Certain of what?
Surely you don't have the evidence that reality, existence, is not an intelligent design?
This thread is pointless.
No one will prove anything.
That's the reality of this thread.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

Certain of what?
Surely you don't have the evidence that reality, existence, is not an intelligent design?

Now we're getting into the burden of proof. Those positing that the universe is the result of ID have the burden of proof to prove their claims are true. Its not up to anyone to prove them wrong until this has been done.

reply to post by Prezbo369

Its just that this claim makes you feel good.

Let's not make this about me.
I could say your claim makes you feel good also.
So as to not go off topic here, I said my piece.
There's not much to argue here in my opinion.
I think you can agree that neither party will provide the undisputable evidence.

Stay well, peace.

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

Certain of what?
Surely you don't have the evidence that reality, existence, is not an intelligent design?

Now we're getting into the burden of proof. Those positing that the universe is the result of ID have the burden of proof to prove their claims are true. Its not up to anyone to prove them wrong until this has been done.

But why? Why is the default that needs no proof the one of non-intervention evolution? It certainly doesn't follow the pattern of nature which is cyclical and creative. Why isn't the burden of proof on the equally (arguably more) challenging notion that our ghosts in these machines we call bodies are nothing but biological end-results?

Originally posted by Cuervo
[
But why? Why is the default that needs no proof the one of non-intervention evolution? It certainly doesn't follow the pattern of nature which is cyclical and creative. Why isn't the burden of proof on the equally (arguably more) challenging notion that our ghosts in these machines we call bodies are nothing but biological end-results?

Evolution is as close to absolute knowledge as anything we have ever known. Its considered more than fact, its considered a Scientific Theory, which "comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena."

As proof goes, its the most water tight proof we have ever discovered, and proponents of evolution have indeed met their burden of proof.

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by Cuervo
[
But why? Why is the default that needs no proof the one of non-intervention evolution? It certainly doesn't follow the pattern of nature which is cyclical and creative. Why isn't the burden of proof on the equally (arguably more) challenging notion that our ghosts in these machines we call bodies are nothing but biological end-results?

Evolution is as close to absolute knowledge as anything we have ever known. Its considered more than fact, its considered a Scientific Theory, which "comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena."

As proof goes, its the most water tight proof we have ever discovered, and proponents of evolution have indeed met their burden of proof.

What does the existence of evolution have to do with the existence of a spiritual nature in humanity?

I think you are falling into the same habit that many do when discussing your angle; you are primarily trying to disprove a Christian god but applying that to all notions of a more designated path of implicit reality.

Disproving a religion does not equal disproving "god" or "design" or even "creation". They are not mutually exclusive concepts when held up to the theory of evolution.