Too white to study medicine

This issue has been around at least in part for the last ten years if not more here in the UK. Discrimination is wrong, I don't care how you word it or what emotive thinking is behind how it could be positive, it is a negative factor and you are either against it or you are for it.

Such examples of blatant racism against whites that I have experienced, numerous organisations that I have been involved in have placed hidden criteria to job adverts that basically means that they will only take on an ethnic minority candidate to balance bureaucratic quotas. Crimes that have been blatantly motivated by race perpetrated against white victims shrugged off by Police as simply assault charges. Council Housing priority lists based on two factors of British and Non-British nationals, then sub-divided by race and employed/non-employed being the main critieria, with white British at the very bottom. Redundancies built around maintaining an equal ethnic minority work force rather than what is business/operational needs. These are four that I have experienced first hand through my working career time and time again.

A lot of this is put down to "Positive Discrimination", but how can discrimination be positive? Racial policy breeds racial prejudice. I do feel sorry for the ethnic minorities that get to where they are through hard work and no jump up the ladder, yet their achievment is undervalued when it seems that anyone with a different shade of skin to the norm can be pushed up the ladder. The worst thing is that more and more people are becoming a lot more aware of this. In my experience there is no benefit from this, some of the candidates that have been taken on through these kind of policies that I have had to work with can barely articulate a sentence or undetake the most basic of tasks, how is that going to benefit the progression of not just organisations, but society in general?

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


You can spin it any way you want. Discrimination is discrimination. And when it's based upon race, it's racial discrimination regardless of the reason or history.

And edit to add-

I may have misinterpreted your post and for that, I apologize. It looks like we basically agree.

reply to post by Maslo


I agree. I'm trying to express the SA governments way of thinking. We all know what it is, but discrimination gets hidden behind clever words. I guess we can all agree that if someone had an advantage as a young child by having rich parents and sending the child to private schools, the child will have an advantage as an young adult. This is the global mentality of the lawmakers. Because whites were not oppressed in the Apartheid regime, all whites have an advantage by default.

I certainly don't agree with that, as I grew up poor and went to public school. Difference is that I did not blame my poverty on anyone. As a matter of fact, I did not see myself as poor. I saw myself as having the opportunity to improve on what I had as a child and to give more to my child. No apartheid needed.

I think that these types of practices began with affirmative action and initially had good intentions.

It all began after the civil rights movement and the prestigious schools noticed an overwhelmingly white student body. This lead to people asking "where are all of the black/brown/yellow/red students?" - and the answer they came up with was "They aren't here because their social and economic backgrounds is holding them back, so let's find a way to include them."

It was a righteous idea that has evolved into exactly what it was meant to counter act, denying opportunities based on skin color.

Unfortunately there's no easy way out if this mess now. If affirmative action is completely done away with minorities will feel discriminated against ... and we're likely to see the best schools begin to have mostly white student bodies again. Even though it would be a step towards true equality it will be as if we're going backwards.

The question is, can we accept that? I think it would be rough going for a while but you really can't deny that the most qualified applicants should be offered placement first.

Originally posted by PrimalRed
reply to post by Maslo

 

I guess the idea is if you are white you should be smart enough to provide funding for school yourself?

Wrong.

Here in SA there are only a very small amount of university burseries available and 99% of those burseries go to black, (if not 100%) coloured and india people. The vast majority of applicants have to pay their own way.

However, the issue is of acceptance into uni. Simply about getting a place! The issue is not that of a sponsered bursery. We are currently sitting with such large numbers of people that need schooling that classrooms are bursting. My 12 year old daughter has 38 peers in her class and there is nothing I can do about the situation. There are only 8 white children amongs these.

I am also to white for SA. In 2001 I worked at London Stock exchange, UK, in admin, amongst other very 'upcoming' jobs I had in office admin, PA, etc. over the years. However, sadly, when I came back to SA in 2010 it took me a year and about easily 150 interviews and applications for office jobs (with excellent references to support my applications) before I realised that my skin is simply to white. In many instances I simply did not even get a call back to my emailed CV.

Now, at the age of 43, I am working at a nursery school, and studying to become a teacher, at UNISA (distant learning where you study from home) for my degree in education. Though I passionately love working with children, and this is what I really always wanted to do, it put us in a very difficult financial position to do with one salary for a year. Before coming back to SA I was convinced that back here in SA we will be able to bank on two salaries.

The flipside of the coin: remember, apartheid was a disgusting, discrimiting system where only white people were allowed to go inside cinimas, public toilets, be in the streets after 17:00, walk on designated beaches, catch 'white' buses, go to good schools..... the list goes on and on. I was extremely lucky that I learnt from a very early age that there are no differences between the soul that wears a white body and the soul that wears a black body. In 1992 I would often be the only white face (and female on top of that) catching a 'black' bus into the industrial area where I worked as secretary at a brewery, as there were no 'white' busses going that way. I was always safe and soon felt at home. I have always been appaled at racial discrimination.

The thing that is hurting us here in SA, more than trying to sort out the racial issue, is that services have taken an extreme nose dive, curruption is the order of the day on a scale never seen before, where even huge mines (Central Rand Gold) are involved in obtaining investers from abroad to the value of Billions of rands (an extraordinary amount of dosh) that simply vanishes into thin air. While they auction off assets that has only been used once or twice, they are already seeking more investors abroad!!!!! Hells bells! Link here: beta.mnet.co.za...

Personally, it might be understandable that SA is trying to uplift its oppressed races through 'affirmative action', but hey, its been 17 years and the country is in ruins. Sadly, we that are living at the epicentre of this issue, find it so complex and confusing. A really really tough one.

reply to post by MrDesolate

Yes we agree. It is discrimination. Adding the word "reverse" (something we all should understand) narrows the focus to race and focuses on the absurdity of the rationale. It is still racial discrimination despite the so called benevolent rationale. I am not justifying it before now either....that, like former real discrimination against negroes (I know that word inflames some but there are not too many black "blacks",,,,"brown" would be closer but that would cover those from India and even some latinos as well) is in the past. If anyone deserves reparations it would be the native americans as they were persecuted (quasi-genocide) as a matter of national policy whereas slavery was simply allowed to occur. At least the slaves were freed but the Indians were run off their land forever (with the exception of some land "reserved" for them).

Originally posted by TXRabbit

Racism is utterly disgusting in any form - regardless of color.

Oh - and for the genius that replies with "Well now you know how it feels!", no - we don't. Let's keep it that way

Actually your ancestors knew, when the Romans took slaves in northern Europe, or the Arabs during the dark ages in coastal rides or by buying them off of slavers. And of course the slavs knew, when western Europeans took slaves in Eastern Europe (slave comes from the word slav). Do they teach that stuff in America, when the subject of slavery is toutched upon? They did spartacus after all. Do they think the guy is blond and blueyed because Hollywood refused to employ a colored person at the time?

Originally posted by Maslo
Source

The University of Stellenbosch reversed its decision to grant a pupil a place in medical school - after discovering that she was white, not coloured, as she had mistakenly stated in her online application.

The 18-year-old applicant, who asked that she not be named, achieved six distinctions in her Grade 11 exams and, in September, learnt the university had accepted her application. But, on October 13, Dr Ronel Retief, the head of academic administration, phoned her to verify her race.

So I guess racism is OK when its against white people? Disgusting...

When will the people learn that two wrongs dont make a right? How can this kind of racial discrimination be legal in 21st century?

edit on 28/11/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

People are starting to wake-up to about 85% of the 'racism' thing being a veil for 'anti-white' programming.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by no special characters

 

Yes, it is illegal to ask about race in university application forms over here. Race, just like sexual orientation, is a private issue completely unrelated to the educational process.

I am curious how can this even be made into actual legislation - do they have a law that says "racist discrimination is outlawed, except for white people"? Or is what the school is doing illegal, but simply tolerated?

Well, Maslo, here in the States we have this thing called Affirmative Action, That means Universities must ask the race so that they can assign their quotas. That is how it has worked here since Congress passed legislation mandating quotas on businesses and Universities. Hence if you are white, you can be automatically shut out of a job or a grant just to fulfill the federally mandated quota. It was meant to espouse equality but it has now begun to achieve reverse discrimination.

My other comment here is that the girl likely "mistakenly" put the wrong race if there was a quota of affirmative action. She may have done it out of desperation, but it put her automatically out of the loop when they heard. She will build a bad reputation for herself if she continues. But I do not know if there are any quotas for this type of thing where that University is.
Another thing people do is to "pad" their resume with fake or exaggerated stuff to get employers to look at their qualifications.

This is a problem with Statism, and especially Nanny Statism whiereby the gov thinks it is going to legislate away all social inequality. BUt in doing so, it also creates a reverse inequality. This is the same principle as when the gov decides you have made too much money and therefore you owe society more than poor people.

Originally posted by WatchRider

Originally posted by Maslo
Source

The University of Stellenbosch reversed its decision to grant a pupil a place in medical school - after discovering that she was white, not coloured, as she had mistakenly stated in her online application.

The 18-year-old applicant, who asked that she not be named, achieved six distinctions in her Grade 11 exams and, in September, learnt the university had accepted her application. But, on October 13, Dr Ronel Retief, the head of academic administration, phoned her to verify her race.

So I guess racism is OK when its against white people? Disgusting...

When will the people learn that two wrongs dont make a right? How can this kind of racial discrimination be legal in 21st century?

edit on 28/11/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

People are starting to wake-up to about 85% of the 'racism' thing being a veil for 'anti-white' programming.

It is also Socialist do-goodism which assumes that the State can fix all problems of society by force and by social engineering/programming.

reply to post by UnlimitedSky

that there are no differences between the soul that wears a white body and the soul that wears a black body

Bingo! Any seeming differences are cultural overlay from environment, but the soul within contains the spark of the Divine!

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
if you are identify yourself with your skin colour you're apart of whats causing the separation

Well, I'm black, and even though I think the ONLY race is human(at least native to earth), I'm constantly reminded by others what my skin color is So, I can't exactly NOT identify with it, can I? This is why I hate affirmative action of any kind..even when someone who looks like myself achieves something, someone will(and I've had this happen) say that I only got "It"(it being job, position, whatever) because of my race, NOT on merit. pisses me off..as far as the article..they seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth. she was told that her race would be a factor in the reversal, but, then the university says it was because of a mistake on the app. Clearly whites were given lower priority. It should be based on merit, and merit alone. everything should..

I am SUPER conflicted about this issue...

I am probably a "bleeding heart lib" when I say that I really do think affirmative action can be good simply because the systems of poverty in this country (I am from the US) make it so that, if we had a meritocracy, our universities would be full of white people who had gone to private schools and had opportunities in their lives to travel to other countries, do volunteer work, etc.

But I know that our system of affirmative action is insulting! It makes people who are not white feel as if they can't make it by on their own merit, which, I suppose in a way, is what I said.

I don't think it's because people who are not white can't be as smart as whites - I think the systems of poverty and oppression make it so that white people have more chances and likelihood of getting good educations and therefore being able to get good grades and have more "merit" (which is really just based on their money.)

So in the end, what it comes down to is poverty, not race, I think. I think we should have affirmative action based on poverty level, because plenty of white people in the country are brought down by poverty and never went to private schools or had parents to help them with their education. I think, right after the Civil Rights movement, affirmative action for race made sense. But now, it's less about race and more about the fact that people of non-white races are more likely to be trapped in cycles of poverty than those who are white. (I don't have to walk ten blocks from my school to be in an impoverished area of mostly black people, and I walk the other direction ten blocks and end up in a rich part with mostly white people - I know this exists.)

By accepting more of the impoverished to go to school, we can help break up gangs and ghettos and really solve the problem, which isn't that black people are too stupid to get into school on their own merit, but that people who live in systems of impoverishment DO need a leg up over their privately educated, privileged peers, who, by virtue of their money, started out in a better position to get the place at University than the poorer person.

Originally posted by LightsideAssassin

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
if you are identify yourself with your skin colour you're apart of whats causing the separation

Well, I'm black, and even though I think the ONLY race is human(at least native to earth), I'm constantly reminded by others what my skin color is

So, I can't exactly NOT identify with it, can I? This is why I hate affirmative action of any kind..even when someone who looks like myself achieves something, someone will(and I've had this happen) say that I only got "It"(it being job, position, whatever) because of my race, NOT on merit. pisses me off..as far as the article..they seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth. she was told that her race would be a factor in the reversal, but, then the university says it was because of a mistake on the app. Clearly whites were given lower priority. It should be based on merit, and merit alone. everything should..

This is exactly right and exactly what I was saying, of sorts, in my original post.

All this positive discrimination/affirmative action does is cause further seperation and not give true credit to individuals who are percieved to not achieve through merit, but through racial policy. These policies do nothing but cause division and have negative impacts on progression in all aspects. A person should not be hired to do a job, or taken on to study, based on the colour of their skin. I can only say that we collectively as a race seem to constantly fail in learning from past failures and instead seem eager to relive them.

Originally posted by spacekc929
I am SUPER conflicted about this issue...

I am probably a "bleeding heart lib" when I say that I really do think affirmative action can be good simply because the systems of poverty in this country (I am from the US) make it so that, if we had a meritocracy, our universities would be full of white people who had gone to private schools and had opportunities in their lives to travel to other countries, do volunteer work, etc.

But I know that our system of affirmative action is insulting! It makes people who are not white feel as if they can't make it by on their own merit, which, I suppose in a way, is what I said.

I don't think it's because people who are not white can't be as smart as whites - I think the systems of poverty and oppression make it so that white people have more chances and likelihood of getting good educations and therefore being able to get good grades and have more "merit" (which is really just based on their money.)

So in the end, what it comes down to is poverty, not race, I think. I think we should have affirmative action based on poverty level, because plenty of white people in the country are brought down by poverty and never went to private schools or had parents to help them with their education. I think, right after the Civil Rights movement, affirmative action for race made sense. But now, it's less about race and more about the fact that people of non-white races are more likely to be trapped in cycles of poverty than those who are white. (I don't have to walk ten blocks from my school to be in an impoverished area of mostly black people, and I walk the other direction ten blocks and end up in a rich part with mostly white people - I know this exists.)

By accepting more of the impoverished to go to school, we can help break up gangs and ghettos and really solve the problem, which isn't that black people are too stupid to get into school on their own merit, but that people who live in systems of impoverishment DO need a leg up over their privately educated, privileged peers, who, by virtue of their money, started out in a better position to get the place at University than the poorer person.

I cannot comment with regards to the US, but here in the UK many seemingly good ideas in theory, fail when you consider the logistics. I'm sure your intentions are sound and I certainly don't doubt them, but I am someone who grew up in a very poor area of London where most kids didn't care for school, let alone attend it. Most only went to colleage so they had an excuse to not go to work. I think the issue is not as clean cut as poverty or even racial, in a sense at least, I think the issue has more to do with a lack of motivation and a lack of realistic ambition. Many black kids that I knew simply didn't want to be educated or even work, anything along the lines of normality seemed to considered a weakness, the black kids I grew up with wanted to get rich quick, they wanted to be sports stars and when that failed, they turned to crime. The white kids I grew up with were not much better, the only difference was that they often skipped the sports star ambition and even the crime and just did absolutely nothing but doss around instead.

I grew up and bettered myself, not through any policy or benefit, but through sheer work and determination. I know of black and white kids around my area where I grew up that did the same. What needs to be adressed is not to just hand people who are seen to be poor a free pass while smashing down on parents who have worked hard for a living, but address giving these kids back motivation to gain an education and try to better themselves through realistic expectations of the real world. When I was a kid in these areas, the education was there, they just didn't want it. The jobs were there for the older ones, they just didn't want it. Why didn't they want it?

I don't believe that anyone has a right to an easy ride. No society can ever prosper through idleness and a low work ethic and in my opinion these policies do nothing but possibly hand undeserving individuals a chance, ahead of more deserving individuals. As I said I cannot speak for the US, but here in the UK these kids all had/have a chance to better themselves, but whether they are white or black, many choose not to and instead choose the get rich quick route, which ends with them in prison or dead. A testament to the modern world of materialism? Who knows, but it certainly will not end with prejudiced policies.

Originally posted by spacekc929
I am SUPER conflicted about this issue...

I am probably a "bleeding heart lib" when I say that I really do think affirmative action can be good simply because the systems of poverty in this country (I am from the US) make it so that, if we had a meritocracy, our universities would be full of white people who had gone to private schools and had opportunities in their lives to travel to other countries, do volunteer work, etc.

But I know that our system of affirmative action is insulting! It makes people who are not white feel as if they can't make it by on their own merit, which, I suppose in a way, is what I said.

I don't think it's because people who are not white can't be as smart as whites - I think the systems of poverty and oppression make it so that white people have more chances and likelihood of getting good educations and therefore being able to get good grades and have more "merit" (which is really just based on their money.)

So in the end, what it comes down to is poverty, not race, I think. I think we should have affirmative action based on poverty level, because plenty of white people in the country are brought down by poverty and never went to private schools or had parents to help them with their education. I think, right after the Civil Rights movement, affirmative action for race made sense. But now, it's less about race and more about the fact that people of non-white races are more likely to be trapped in cycles of poverty than those who are white. (I don't have to walk ten blocks from my school to be in an impoverished area of mostly black people, and I walk the other direction ten blocks and end up in a rich part with mostly white people - I know this exists.)

By accepting more of the impoverished to go to school, we can help break up gangs and ghettos and really solve the problem, which isn't that black people are too stupid to get into school on their own merit, but that people who live in systems of impoverishment DO need a leg up over their privately educated, privileged peers, who, by virtue of their money, started out in a better position to get the place at University than the poorer person.

Well, here's the problem..maybe I'm just repeating myself here..but, If I, as a black man, am given a leg up because of my skin color, everything I achieve because of that has an asterisk next to it. It's not "real" to many people, and I will not be granted the level of respect commensurate to said achievement. I mean, being black in america, this happens whether you earned it or not..but if you TRULY didn't earn it, it's that much worse. I appreciate your heart being in the right place, but I have to tell you liberals in america are more racist than any conservative I've ever met. the reason is simple: liberals treat us as charity cases. Like man-child and woman-child. Liberals pat us on the head and go "there there", even to people of achievement. We are simply not given a seat at the big boy table in the liberal mind. Now, conservatives(which, by the way, does NOT mean automatically racist) tend to believe in individual achievement above all. Meritocracy. If you earned it, it's yours, and will be given proper weight and respect.

Liberals see a person of color and their "white guilt" pops up, and, I swear to christ, you can see it in their faces, it's that "there's goes a walking food stamp" condescension that is really infuriating. I tell you what. Deny me a hand up I didn't earn. Now, when I say I'm against affirmative action, I'm not saying things are equal, clearly they are not. But, how about we rebuild our educational system so everyone has the same chance? we had trillions to give to wall street, but nary a new school built. disgusting. THAT'S where we should be focusing, instead of lobbing 100mil-each cruise missiles at quaddafi or whoever the military industrial complex says is our "enemy" next.

funny, when you look into who our "enemies" are, you find out that they didn't do anything to us. they were just checking out of our corrupt monetary policies(both saddam and quaddafi were looking away from the dollar). JFK wanted to end the fed, got a bullet for his troubles. And so on and so on. Considering the real reasons for disparity in black/brown and white america, affirmative action is really a joke.

I'm not laughing, though.

OMG racism still exists? I didnt know, living in Canada and all lol jk. Racism will always be around because one race will always put down another then that race will put down that one for putting them down for so many years... Sound abot right... I mean sometimes i think the natives have gotten enough money from us and shouldnt have a grudge against a completley different generation of white people, Then i remember how in truth our ancestors literaly hunted them like animals and killed hundreds of thousands of them even offerning money for theyre scalps like animal skins, eventually wiping out there entrie civilization and completley destroying many tribes lineage and cultures, And thats what they allow us to know in school. The real truth is probably far worse then we'd ever want to admit, I wouldnt doubt if when the first europeans came to north america theyre were probably 10's of millions of native americans here... So, should they really still hold a grudge, wouldnt you?

reply to post by spacekc929

So in the end, what it comes down to is poverty, not race, I think. I think we should have affirmative action based on poverty level, because plenty of white people in the country are brought down by poverty and never went to private schools or had parents to help them with their education.

Affirmative action based on any variable except merit is wrong. But you are right about poverty being the main issue, not ethnicity.

This is why the correct way is to provide scholarships and social programs aimed at poor and actually disadvantaged (not "colored") students of any ethnicity. This approach is not racist, and instead of affirmative action skewing the results, it is aimed at solving the cause, not symptoms.

Originally posted by PrimalRed

...
Van der Merwe said Indian candidates, preferably from the Western and Northern Cape and African and coloured candidates from all provinces were selected first.

edit on 28-11-2011 by PrimalRed because: (no reason given)

How could those admissions fascists be such horrible people? Favoring those from underdeveloped regions with poor health care in the hope that they will learn at good western medical schools and take their knowledge and skills back to their home regions to help ease suffering and improve general health for the people there.

reply to post by RedGod


The admissions process was based on race, not economic status. While there may be a certain overlap in these two categories, it clearly states that Indians from two provinces and Africans and coloureds from all provinces would be favoured. There was nothing at all about favouring people from underdeveloped parts of the country, therby making your point rather redundant.