Would like to discuss Andrea Rossi and his E-cat

Shortly after Andrea Rossi performed his Oct. 28th test of his 1Mw cold fusion reactor a non-vetted CNN article ran entitled, "COLD FUSION GENERATOR WORKS BUT A.P. SITS ON ITS GLOBAL EXCLUSIVE ".

ireport.cnn.com...

What caught my eye more than the article itself was a bit of unknown information by a comment left by "dimedozen" who says:

Andrea Rossi has been working in the alternative energy field for over 30 years. In Italy in the 1970s he patented a process to turn waste to fuel and was quite successful. Unfortunately, his efforts stepped on the toes of both organized crime, who often uses waste management as one of their core businesses, and the corrupt politicians they bought and paid for. Rossi was railroaded into prison on trumped up changes, much like Amanda Knox was recently. Like Ms. Knox, Rossi was later acquitted, save for some lesser charges for which he was fined. It should also be mentioned that two well-respected scientists were hounded out of the U.S. by the establishment in 1989 because of their claims that had a cold fusion device. Their claims have been successfully replicated 1000s of times in the last 20 years. See lenr-canr.org for documentation.

Rossi also developed and demonstrated highly efficient thermocouplers for the Department of Defense. Before they went into production, his factory burned to the ground, destroying important work and documents. He eventually was able to produce the devices but at much lower efficiency than previously demonstrated.

Rossi developed generators that ran off of biofuel. There were no reported problems with these and he subsequently sold this company for a profit. He used that money to finance his energy catalyzer.

Admittedly, Rossi has not yet allowed independent verification of his e-Cat but given his past experiences and those of other alternative energy researchers, his guarded and secretive behavior is understandable. He also does not have a patent for his device because the US patent office considers cold fusion and perpetual motion machines to be in the same category (i.e. impossible). He does have an Italian patent but due to his past history doing business in Italy, he refuses to market his device there, although his development and research has been carried out in that country.


Now with a better understanding of his background it makes more sense as to his actions.

I wrote Andrea Rossi and I was suprised at how quickly he responded. I had inquired that I was interested in his product and he replied:

Dear Sir,
We sell 1 MW plants, so far.
Can you spedify your needs?
Warm regards,
A.R.

I thought that was pretty cool.

In closing I am sharing a link to an article that I find interesting entitled, "Rebuttal to Krivit's Accusation that Andrea Rossi is a Fraudster"

pesn.com...

I personally think Andrea Rossi's invention is the real deal until proven otherwise. I have been trying to put together investors in the Seattle area to raise the 2 million needed to purchase one of his E-cats. I have never tried to do anything like that but I do have connections with people who have money and my goal is to show the public that it works. He has stated multiple times he will not take any money until the finished product is tested by the customer and they are satisfied. That sounds like a win-win scenario to me. One of his E-cats with power 700 to 750 homes.

Andrea Rossi is kind of a weirdo and it drives a lot of people crazy because his methods are unconventional but that doesn't mean his product doesn't work.

I am asking you to read the articles and let me know if your opinion changes.

this is in the wrong forum...could someone please move it to the appropriate one? Sorry...whoops.

pesn.com...

link to an article about the official website for the E-cat

reply to post by MedicWithUber


Rossi makes claims that he has created a process which when running violates the First, Second, and Third laws of Thermodynamics.

As well as the conservation of mass-energy law of physics (E=mc2).

To claim that he and he alone can wipe out "four" of the most accepted and most often tested laws of physics, without demonstrating any conclusive ability to violate even "one" of them, not even on paper, leads me to believe that it is all a hoax.

The success of his scam in drawing in victims/investors, does not validate any of his claims. Until he can show at least an independently testable proof-of-concept working model, keep your money (and your connections money) safely away from the snake-oil salesman.

yea well the problem there is that since our stupid country has a dumb patent office, he has every intention of keeping his "recipe" secret. So would you, so would I.

And he isn't taking investors...if a customer meets certain criteria, he makes the product for them and they pay no money until it is tested "by the customer in any way they see fit"...unless they are satisfied no money is paid to Rossi.

reply to post by MedicWithUber


A quick search turned up the following concerns, among others:

The first is that neither the nickel nor the produced copper has an unusual isotope mix. This is very unexpected as the only simple equations where nickel + hydrogen produce copper involve nickel isotopes 62 and 64. If the e-cat is converting nickel to stable copper, it should be getting depleted of these isotopes.

(Source: www.nyteknik.se... “the used powder is different in that several elements are present, mainly 10 percent copper and 11 percent iron. The isotopic analysis through ICP-MS doesn’t show any deviation from the natural isotopic composition of nickel and copper.”)

The second is that a lot of money is flying around. It appears that the American company has provided Rossi with “an undisclosed sum”. (See the news feed). Further the Greek government has invested or promised 200 million euros to build a Greek plan. That’s a lot of money to commit fraud for, and it is inconsistent with statements that Rossi has made.

nickelpower.org...

There is already a 23 page thread opened regarding Rossi & his E-Cat:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Rossi makes claims that he has created a process which when running violates the First, Second, and Third laws of Thermodynamics. As well as the conservation of mass-energy law of physics (E=mc2). To claim that he and he alone can wipe out "four" of the most accepted and most often tested laws of physics, without demonstrating any conclusive ability to violate even "one" of them, not even on paper, leads me to believe that it is all a hoax.

Please cite where he claimed this. From my understanding the whole story is about fusion of nickel to copper which is not violating laws of physics.

@MedicWithUber
If you are serious about purchasing this "device" make sure you've got a lawyer and engineer on board and maybe check the vortex-l list if you haven't already.
E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company

First law: In any process in an isolated system, the total energy remains the same.
Rossi claims an increase of energy potential.

Second law: In the process of reaching a new thermodynamic equilibrium, total entropy is increased.
Rossi claims that overall entropy is decreased and surplus energy is created.

Third law: As temperature approaches absolute zero, the entropy of a system approaches a minimum.
Rossi claims that he has created a process which at nearly room temperature eliminates entropy entirely.

Simple deduction says hoax.

reply to post by twinmommy38

Rossi claims an increase of energy potential.
..
Rossi claims that overall entropy is decreased and surplus energy is created.
...
Rossi claims that he has created a process which at nearly room temperature eliminates entropy entirely.

Where do you have this BS from, cite please!

reply to post by moebius


I Googled it, so can you.
"Rossi Hoax" gets many hits.
As it should.

reply to post by twinmommy38


You are misapplying your "laws." Rossi's process is claimed to be conversion of matter to energy, much like what occurs in known nuclar processes. This is not free energy with magnets, wheels, gears, Orgone energy, or a flux capacitor.

reply to post by twinmommy38

Can't find any info where Rossi is claiming to decrease overall entropy or eliminate it. So please help me. Share your sources.

On application of a magnetic field, hydrogen atoms will tend to align so as to minimize the energy of the system. Energy is added using radio frequency (RF) causing a population to flip, providing to a positive temperature - which is also the trigger temperature. At some point more than half of the spins are in the spin-up position. In this case, adding additional energy reduces the entropy, since it moves the system further from max entropy. This reduction in entropy with the addition of energy corresponds to a negative temperature. Some of this is paraphrased from the Wiki entry and you can fill in the blanks.

www.avonhistory.org...

Rossi is using an exothermic reaction to power a steamengine. It is a closed thermodynamic system. How can the laws of thermodynamics not apply to a thermodynamic system? Once the energy added from pressurizing the hydrogen, micro-powdering and compressing the nickel, and then heating the exothermic chamber to 150c-500c is deducted from the weak output which has been observed at the demonstrations, no usable energy has been produced. The heating coil from a cheap teakettle could replicate the results which have been shown so far.

I would LOVE to be wrong! I WISH that I wasn't handing my local power company about $2600.00 over the course of a year. I WANT Rossi to be a brilliant scientist that cures all of mans ills, and becomes a trillionare because of it. Greater minds than I will ever understand say "fraud". No amount of forum-speak will overcome the fact that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" not "I can't show you or you will steal it". His 1mw unit should be ready for delivery shortly, the proof will be conclusive at that time. I go on record as saying "hoax", your opinion is just that, yours!

Originally posted by twinmommy38

Rossi is using an exothermic reaction to power a steamengine. It is a closed thermodynamic system. How can the laws of thermodynamics not apply to a thermodynamic system? Once the energy added from pressurizing the hydrogen, micro-powdering and compressing the nickel, and then heating the exothermic chamber to 150c-500c is deducted from the weak output which has been observed at the demonstrations, no usable energy has been produced. The heating coil from a cheap teakettle could replicate the results which have been shown so far.

Perhaps you neglected to read my previous post. The reaction in question is claimed to be a nuclear reaction. The History of Avon, Ohio website may be a bit confused when it comes to thermodynamics. The output is not weak; 470 kW for several hours is more than a coil from a cheap teakettle could produce.

reply to post by twinmommy38

FYI you are citing a random commenter not Rossi. All Rossi claims is that there is an exothermic reaction of nickel and hydrogen. You don't have to believe him. This is why proper testing should happen before paying for the device, and this is how Rossi deals with it afaik. This is also the only reason not to immediately dismiss him as a hoaxer for me.

reply to post by pteridine


470kw is definitely a lot. In fact it's the same as the 470kw generator hooked up during the test ....

Rossi has a history of fraud, he continues to make claims that proof is coming, and then the goalpost is changed again. He claims he has a customer, only that customer demands to remain anonymous. He then claims he has a large contract, only this time its a military contract so once again he can not say anything. He claimed that he would not take any money until he proved his device was legitimate, he has not proven so and yet has taken quite a nice sum of cash. He was supposedly going to show off a 1mw device, with a 470kw generator hooked up it produced .. wait for it .. 470kw of power, of course he claims the generator was off, but doesn't that make anyone else say hmmm? He also has not been able to show a device working for any length of time, they always need to be shut down fairly fast when they supposedly run for months. All of this points to fraud and lies, hope I'm wrong, but let's face it I'm not.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

The output of the unit was 470kW thermal. No electric power was generated. A computer control problem prevented half of the units from operating.

Originally posted by MedicWithUber
I personally think Andrea Rossi's invention is the real deal until proven otherwise.
I am asking you to read the articles and let me know if your opinion changes.

Bob Park has said the people funding blacklight power must have deep pockets and shallow brains.

I think the statement: "I personally think Andrea Rossi's invention is the real deal until proven otherwise." would make you a target for Bob Park to hurl similar accusations at you.

In a nutshell, Rossi's claims are extraordinary. The evidence Rossi has presented not only isn't extraordinary, it isn't even ordinary nor credible.

As Carl Sagan said: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Ignore that advice at your own peril.

There's not just one point where you have to set aside disbelief to accept Rossi's claims, there are probably at least half a dozen.

That rebuttal on Peswiki certainly isn't enough to convince a rational investor that Rossi's claims are credible. And Peswiki was hosting Rossi's website so they are kind of in bed together so it's not exactly from an unbiased source, but even if it was from an unbiased source there's just no substance there to convince anyone that Rossi has violated the laws of physics as we know them by 50 orders of magnitude and so on. Even if he actually did that, he's shown no credible evidence of that.