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Scientific Reasoning for Stigmata

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posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 12:51 PM
I'm curious on both views of Stigmata. Stigmata is the strange phenoma where crucificion wounds appear on a person. I'm Agnostic myself, so I personally dont really believe its a miraculous miracle or anything, but I'm curious if anybody knows the scientific explanation of it.

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 01:32 PM
Stigmata-like wounds have been reproduced in controlled experimental conditions, as have 'beautific visions'

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 02:37 PM
From what I've read and heard, many stigmata cases are faked, or are due to explainable reasons.

And as the previous poster said, it is true that this so-called "phenomenon" has been produced under controlled conditions.

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Nygdan
Stigmata-like wounds have been reproduced in controlled experimental conditions, as have 'beautific visions'

Interesting. How were they reproduced? Where could I read more about these experiments?

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 03:32 PM

From what I've read and heard, many stigmata cases are faked,

Same here, but I am curious as well as to controlled experiments on this....

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 03:37 PM
yes, does anybody have any info on the controlled experiment?

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 06:36 PM
It's intereting how so-called "Authentic" Stigmata wounds appear in the palmsof the hands, when researchers have proven that the nails would have to be going through the wrists to support the body's weight..

In most cases it turns out to be mostly Psychosomatic wounds anyhow. Sorta like a REALLY bad case of nervous hives..The inflicted persons' belief is so strong to the point of reeking hovok upon the physical form.

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 07:35 PM
out of curiosity, how could that ever be a Psychosomatic event? I mean, people might go "blind" or get hives, but physical wounds, including going through theyre hands? can you explain alittle bit more on how thats possible?

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 07:43 PM
you'd be suprised at how much control the mind has over the body. think of psychosomatic symptoms in the same way as phobias. being phobic(all in your mind) can cause anything ranging from heart attacks to respiratory failure. if you believe something strongly enough(pertaining to the body), there is a good chance that it will happen. just like a hypochondriac can show many of the symptoms of a disease and not really have it, a person who believes that they carry the wounds of a crucifixion can bleed from or bruise in these areas, but don't really have the wounds of Christ. the brain is a weird,wonderful organ isn't it? i'll stop here or else i'll go on forever. i'm working on my Phd in psych and i LOVE to discuss anything that has to do with the brain.

posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 11:42 PM
Now, I know that I have heard this somewhere, but I almost doubt it, because I can't seem to find any really good references. Here are some

one page
Tantalizing evidence comes to us from the medical journals, which report numerous cases of "psychogenic purpuras." These are instances of nonreligious stigmata, in which patients with emotional disorders experience unexplained painful bruising and swelling and occasionally even bleeding through apparently intact skin. One theory blames "autoerythrocyte sensitization," in which individuals react pathologically to their own blood.

another page
Murphy, 234-5. Account given by Sir Claude Wade, a British resident of the court of the Maharaja Runjeet Singh;
Psychiatrist Robert Moody, for example, described a man treated for attacks of somnambulism who exhibited indentations on his arms that resembled rope marks. These appeared when he was reliving an episode during which he had been tied in bed to inhibit his sleepwalking.... Though it was conceivable, Moody wrote, that his patient might have tied a rope around himself to cause the first set of indentations, "on the second occasion strict observation made trickery impossible; so it is difficult to see how the occurrence can be explained in any way other than as a genuine psychosomatic phenomenon." [...] During catharsis, a patient once buried by a bomb explosion exhibited a swelling on his left ankle where he had been struck, and a second on his head where he had been hit during the same incident. The abreaction of a merchant seaman who had fallen into an icy sea precipitated a localized inhibition of blood flow to his extremities. And a woman who relived a riding accident exhibited psychogenic bruising on her right side where she had fractured some ribs in her fall....

Moody described a female patient who had exhibited several psychogenic marks. These included a red mark on her shoulder that appeared as she relived a beating in which a whip had caught her on the very spot; a swelling of her right wrist after she recalled an accident in which the wrist had been fractured; red streaks on her legs that corresponded to wounds caused by yet another accident; and the appearance of a bruise that resembled the imprint of an elaborately carved stick her father had used to beat her. Moody also described an experiment he had conducted with the same patient. After recalling an incident in which she had been struck across the hands, she exhibited red streaks where her father's whip had left bloody marks. Moody then encased her right hand in a firm plaster bandage, which he removed the following morning in the presence of his colleague to find "obvious bloodstains on the dressing immediately covering the weals."...

same page, different subject slightly:
Another hysterical somatization is false pregnancy or pseudocyesis. Murphy describes some of the symptoms:

The pseudocyesis cases reviewed by Biven and Klinger and by Fried involved the following symptoms, in the order of their frequency: (1) partial or complete disappearance of menses, usually lasting for nine months; (2) abdominal enlargement; (3) breast changes, including swelling and tenderness; secretion of milk and colostrum, pigmentation; and enlarged papillae; (4) sensations of "fetal movements"; (5) softening of the cervix and enlargement of the uterus; (6) nausea and vomiting, sometimes with aberrations of appetite; and (7) weight gain, usually greater than in pregnancy...

another one from teh same, not a controlled experiement, but anecdotal nonetheless:
When she was 13, [her] father scratched her down her back with his fingernails, leaving three long scars. These healed over in time. Four years later, at the age of 17, she had left home because of her father's brutality, and was living in the country with her brother.... Somehow [he] found out where she was, and announced he would pay a visit. The patient reports now that as the time of the visit approached, her old back scars, which had been healed for four years, would redden and bleed.... This reddening and bleeding of the three old healed scars would recede spontaneously, but these episodes recurred several times, each with the anticipation of a visit from her father.

here is an unverified blog entry:
and the stigmata thing: they tested the psychosomatic thing by hypnotising people and placing in their minds the thoughts of being crucified. one young girl started bleeding from the forhead and blood was running down her face at the suggestion that a crown of thorns was being placed on her head. again, very fascinating stuff.

Must note that this person also quotes the 'jesus lived in india where his name was issa' thing, so they aren't much of a source. Of course, that -story- exists, so perhaps this reference does too.

here's what looks like another blog entry, with a possible source:

was so deeply intrigued in the History channels "Mysterious Marvels" special on the Stigmata. [...] Basically many neurologists and psychologists have shown evidence that people in a hypnotic state can produce the same physical manifestations of pain.

csicop also uses this book as one of their refernces on some articles about this, perhaps someone knows if it does or does not have reference to the controlled experiments:
The bleeding mind: An investigation into the mysterious phenomenon of stigmata
by Ian Wilson

coincidentally enough I just found this
Science has verified that some people under extreme stress and fear for their lives can sweat blood like Jesus allegedly did in the Garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion. Surely under suggestion or hypnosis it would be possible for one to produce this bleeding from certain areas of the body corresponding to the crucifixion marks of Jesus Christ? A person like that has never been found with perhaps a couple of exceptions mentioned in Ian Wilsons The Bleeding Mind.

Thus making this book a little more interesting.

here is another:
Thurston believed stigmatization was due to the effects of suggestion, but experimental attempts to duplicate the phenomenon, for example by using hypnosis, have been unsuccessful--except for a related case which appears to have been a hoax. (The psychiatrist reported that bloody tears welled inside the subject's eyelids, but a photograph shows rivulets originating outside the eyes [see Wilson 1988].)

This seems to indicate that wilson 88 doesn't have any stigmata reproduced under controlled experimental conditions.

more on the 'purpuras':
Psychogenic purpura, also known as recurrent painful bruising or autoerythrocyte sensitization syndrome (Gardner-Diamond syndrome ) is usually associated with emotionally disturbed patients.

this page deals with 'PSYCHOSOMATIC DERMATOLOGY ' but i haven't read very much of it at all, and a ton of popups, er, popup, so beware.

Finally, I'll list this reference:
Ratnoff OD. The psychogenic purpuras: a review of autoerythrocyte sensitisation, autosensitisation to DNA, hysterical and factitial bleeding and the religious stigmata. Semin Haematol 1980; 17: 192-213.

So it looks like I will have to say that i can't verify that these things have been specifically reproduced, however somewhat similar conditions have been.

posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 12:21 AM
I think I posted a thread with this but I will post what I thought I posted there here for youj:

Creating Miraculous Sensations and Feelings: Ghost Spirit, Paranormal, Supernatural, Miraculous, Unexplainable Feelings, Encounters,


(2) How to Condition and Trigger Nervological Memory
When you look at something you can in the future visually remember what you saw and picture it in your mind. You can even draw a very detailed picture of something you had once seen by visualizing it. You can remember a sound you heard and imagine it playing in your mind and even reproduce it with instruments. Nervous system memory can be so intense its like actually seeing something you once saw like you were looking at a photo, or hearing the exact sound like you are playing a high quality recording.

Western Historic Examples
One major example of how this method of creating false miracles has appeared throughout western history has been in the claims of peopleexperiencing the phenomena called "Stigmatism", or "Stigmata". The church has claimed that there is a miraclous experience caused by their god or other devine forces to specially "chosen" people feeling the wounds the Christian god was said to have suffered on the cross. I've read accounts of people claiming to be chosen from others for being so holy their god wanted to intimately share the experience of being crucified with them. These accounts are covered in deep religious poetry and a dramatism of how incredible these accounts are. It comes down to people describing their palms feeling like they have been staked through, their legs being nailed, and the sides of their chests being sharply pierced. These experiences may seem incredibly painful and people can be screaming and crying in terror during such experiences.

Other Possibilities
I havent heard specifically but I am sure there are also accounts of people even feeling the sensation of blood dripping or pouring from these or other spots and accounts of people feeling a wreath of sharp thorns stabbing into their heards. I say I'm sure there are these kinds of accounts even though I have not read of them because I know the method used to create these seemingly miraculous experiences and that there are many possibilities that this method can create.

Nervous System Memory Regression or Triggers
One method of creating the false miracles of experiencing incredible sensations involves invasively triggering a person's nervous system memory. This means that a person can be forced to relive a feeling they had felt at some point in their lives against their will.

A Few Examples of the Endless Possibilities:
You've been injected with a needle,
You've had hot or cold water touch you a part of you skin,
You've been burnt,
You've had sweat or a liquid drip down your face or on your body,
You've touch a material that has a feeling
You've been cut, scratched, or stabbed,
You've had a sensation on your skin,
You've felt a cold or hot breeze on a part of your body

Whatever the case it can all be triggered again against your will. It could be done any time even while you are sleeping. You could be standing there in a dark room and all of a sudden you feel an intense pain, you cant see what it is, so its hard to tell. Then all of a sudden you feel liquid dripping from the source of the pain. You wonder that you could have been stabbed and are bleeding. The light goes on you look at the spot theres nothing there, no scare, no scratch, no blood, its completely dry. Now you experience it again in the light while looking at the spot. You experience the intense feeling like you are being stabbed and that its bleeding but you see nothing happening, theres nothing touching you.

Lore and False Causation
What usually happens at this point is something called lore kicking in. In religious engineering lore is used to hide the real causes of things such as miracles to other sources, such as saying what nervous system triggering does is caused by something else like supernatural or paranormal forces, when in fact it is caused by human beings acting like the "stage handlers" or "special effects crew" of miraculous experiences.

Lore is very slick, dogmatic, poetic, and very dramatic. The people describing the experience of a false miracles are conditioned before they experience the miracle so that when they experience the miracle they will describe exactly what the tricksters intended. The conditioning deludes the person of what isnt actually happening. From my experience before being shown many false miracles while being drugged, a women who had gotten very close to me, too close, showed me videos, documentaries, and talked about demons, paranormal forces, we watched the movie Angels and Demons. Then came a process of articulation in which through discussion she was controlling the way I responded to the information and how I reacted to it. She would explain something and if she wanted me to be scared of it should would repeat the information in a frightened tone until her expressions of fear became contagious and I responded in fear. For three weeks I was sleep deprived and starved. I was also drugged, I was a smoker back than and after the incident I found green particles mixed in with my ciggarrettes. I can tell you from being in remote places there are so many drugs out there with unbelievable effects, and even more effects when attaching different notions to them.

The Best Propaganda are Those Who Have Been Deluded, Tricked, and Deceived
The best testamony with the greatest conviction, dramatism, and believability are by those who have been deceived and really believe what they are saying. Many propaganda agents are prepared by taking very gullable people, or conditioning and breaking down people to be gullable, and then indoctrinated them into whatever needs to be propagated, and this may include false miracles.

Technological Integration of Invasive Nervous System Memory Triggers
Neural Network technology uses this method of triggering nervological memory to make a person feel all sorts of things. However, Neural Networks may trigger one type of nervological memory and disgues it as another if it does not have an accurate trigger for the experience it wants to person to feel. Neural Network can create Virtual Reality (many neuro-signals endcoding) experiences or Semi Virtual (less neural-signal encoding) reality experience. For example, if you experienced a hallographic renditioning of a texturized 3-D model, in your eye sight (Optical nerves) interacting with you, nervous system triggers are what is used to make you feel it. If you see a hallographic pile of snow and you reach out and touch it your hand will start to feel it because the software will use a nervous system memory trigger to trigger a previous experience of you touching something very cold with that part of your body.

How to Create the Actual Triggerss
There are two steps in creating triggers to regress previous sensations. The first step is a conditioning period in which a person experiences repeated times the sense that is intended to be triggered several times over a period of at least 10-days. I suspect they need not be consecutive days. In psychology the text book terminology for trigger is called Conditioned Stimulus (CS), a stimulator that causes an effect that has been conditionined, in this case it is the sense, feeling, or nervous system experience. In the process an Unconditioned Stimulus (US) is used to create the feeling. If the feeling to be triggered is feeling ice on the finger the US is ice. If the feeling is being injected with a needle the US is a sering. I have to warn you torture chambers have been and are designed to create triggers for triggering horrable and gross acts of inflicting pain such as tearing flesh with sharp objects and the instruments of torture would be the US.
During the conditioning process the trigger or CS is paired with the feeling, US, repeatedly over a period of ten days. After the conditioning process the trigger will beable to cause the person to experience that sensation, if they touched ice they will feel ice when triggered. You can find tons of more information on the different types of triggers such as sound, visuals, and others by looking upat any of the terms `conditioned stimulus`, `sense pairing`, or associative pairing`. The Neural Network techonology possessed by the English Monarchy uses undetectable triggers, you can not notice their sound or how they look, but once you know what can be caused by triggers you can tell by their effect when they are being employed. Neural Network technology can turn the things you do in your daily life into trigger conditioning. If you`ve held a cold can of coke on ten different days they have a nervous system regression trigger for that experience, and when someone experiences this and they dont know about nervous system triggers any type of lore may kick in to explain the experience. You could be triggered to feeling the effects of the chemicle and think it feels like something else.

Chemical Sensations, Chemicals as the Unconditioned Stimulus (US)
You want to know how diverse this method of creating false miracles gets, imagine the multitude of feelings caused by the different chemicles in the world. Chemicle sensations can be used as the US and their feelings can be triggered as well. Your feelings get recorded during the conditioning and the trigger replays them.

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