Tree of knowledge of good & evil, And the Tree of Life

reply to post by autowrench


The Holy Spirit is God, God's Spirit, Which knows all things, and is part of the trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, He is the Third part of the trinity, He was sent to dwell only within man after Christ had payed the price, Because the Holy Spirit could not yet have come, Because Jesus had not been glorified in heaven.

If you want to find out about the nature and personality of the Divine Person, You can read the book of Acts, i would suggest you start with the gospels, and study the active work of the Holy Spirit in Jesus when he overcame in the wilderness, Because Jesus received the baptism of the Holy Spirit when he was baptized by John in the river, The Holy Spirit descended upon Him, and God said, This is my beloved Son whom i love so much.

The moment after the baptism of exousia and dunamis from on high, Jesus began His earthly Ministry, Preaching and teaching the gospel of the Kingdom of heaven, That same power Jesus has is in His believer who receive Him and trust in Him honestly and receive His gift of power from on high.

its the Divine Person that changed the fate of Man when Jesus said He would send the Helper and not leave us as orphans, and that they should not leave the city, But wait for the outpouring of The Holy Spirit.

Its then once the day of Pentecost had happened, the disciples, and family members and other congregation received tongues of fire and began speaking in heavenly language, and they became filled with the Power of God, and Then as a result 3000 people came to salvation because of The power of the Power of God through the gospel.


The reason Jesus left is so that He could go to the Father and Send us the Holy Spirit to fulfill on the earth through us, equipping us to complete the great commission without his earthly presence walking among, But His Spirit in us, reminding us, and revealing to us the things of Jesus, And guaranteeing man unto salvation, Both that through the receiving of the Holy Spirit, whom we would be enabled through to do miracles, signs, wonders, TO PREACH THE GOSPEL, to prophecy, to heal the sick and raise the dead, All in the Name of Jesus, Through His Spirit in Us.

I want to quote some scripture, Where Jesus is Promising and describing the Gift of the Father, The baptism of the Holy Spirit, Why Jesus had to go, why He would send the helper, and what he would do through us ward who believe in Him. That we should do greater things that Christ, Because He goes to the Father.


John 14:12-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Answered Prayer

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[a] anything in My name, I will do it.
Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


John 14:25-31 (New King James Version)


The Gift of His Peace

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said,[a] ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

29 “And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe.

30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.


I refuse to use the NIV (Nearly Inspired Version)

hahahaha, Its a little christian joke

.....

edit on 21/02/2011 by InnerstellarOne because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Seede


Genesis 3:13-19

King James Version (KJV)

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Satan is spirit being aswell, Not celestial, But Spirit, The heavens are celestial, we are terrestrial in flesh, But spirit being in nature of origin.

I believe Satan used the form of the serpant to weave his way through the garden, observing man, and hissing with anger and hate from such a beautiful and far greater glorious being that God had made, above all creation. We know the metaphor to the snake results with Wickedness, poison, Evil, deceptive, cunningness, and sneaky. Of course this represent satans nature that led to the fall.

We know demons (disobedient angels) posses people today, and that they are without physical body, But cursed, hideous, Disgusting demented beings, lost beauty from the fall., and satan entered into Judas, and through other people. Because satan is a spirit being, and i do believe its possible he manifest in a snake in the garden, Of all the creatures why is Lucifer, Satan, The Devil. choose to portray a serpent?

reply to post by autowrench


The Father God has two celestial portions of existence. Man has one spiritual and one terrestrial portions of existence till the terrestrial portion ceases to exist. That is called death. After death man shall have two portions of spiritual existence regardless of judgment.

The heavenly Father's two celestial portions are image and likeness. Image being the visibility (Word) and the invisibility (likeness) -- ( Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness --

Man's two portions on this earth are his terrestrial image (visibility) and spiritual likeness (invisibility). At death the terrestrial image substance is changed to spiritual image substance and man becomes a spiritual entity. To become a child of the Father you must then be judged and found worthy to become a celestial entity. All people become a spiritual entity but not all become a celestial entity. The reasoning for this is because the rejected soul is cast into Sheol (hell) as a spiritual body which remains in this earth while the accepted spiritual body is allowed into the celestial realm and transformed into a celestial body. This is called resurrection or born again.

Therefore in order to answer your question. Sophia is not an entity but is a spiritual conception of a belief system. Of course all of this is theology and I only believe that of which I was taught. I could be partially wrong or completely wrong. I do not speak in authority because there is no authority in this matter.
The Holy Spirit which is in the world today is a portion of the spirit of the Father. The Father's image, which is the celestial Word in heaven, was manifested in this world as the terrestrial Jesus but once again returned to His celestial estate as the Word. He now resides in the heavenly throne as the Word. Through this understanding, it can be shown that Sophia is no authority in the celestial realm and had no salvation connection whatsoever in our theology. It would be cultish at the best.

reply to post by Seede

The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a big problem. The problem here is problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. How did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? When King James I authorized the translation of the Bible into English, the scribes and translators did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebrew metaphor, "Day Star, Son of the Dawn," (Venus, the Morning Star)) as "Lucifer," and over the many years a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the Morning Star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. (Probably Dante's invention) Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness. You can blame King James I, but the translation was wrong. Hence, no Lucifer. So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning"). Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). The concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in, or teach such a doctrine.

So, to put it simply, Satan, the Devil, and Lucifer did not exist until recently. Anyone who believe this being has always existed is fooling themselves.

reply to post by InnerstellarOne


I do believe you have a very valid point and as I have said before in my other blogs, I am not the authority in scripture but only my understanding.

The reason that I had belief that the serpent was a terrestrial creation was that the Genesis account also said that the serpent was a created beast who was wiser than all of the other created beasts.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made).

This implies, to me, that the serpent at one time was a beast by definition. This beast could talk or communicate with man. The Jewish teaching on this matter was that the beast had arms and legs before it sinned but that the angel of the Lord severed the limbs from the beast and it then became as the serpent that we see today. This is not in the KJV but is only Torah Anthology. At this time in the garden, Lucifer had already been cast down to this realm out of the celestial heavens. Now even though Lucifer has been cast from heaven, he is still a spiritual entity. Whether or not his substance has been changed I have no knowledge but Lucifer's spirit of disobedience does influence all of creation.

What spirit is I do not understand but have been taught that it is, to us, an invisible force which influences our consciousness. It would be as though to ask a scientist what is the dark matter in this universe. The scientist can not tell you even though he knows that dark matter exists and can be measured and felt if dropped upon your toe. The same phenomenon exists with wind. Wind can be measured and felt but not seen till mixed with visible terrestrial elements. That would be substance change. There are mysteries which will remain mysterious to our creation and we shall probably never understand the hidden things of this world.

reply to post by InnerstellarOne

The Holy Spirit is God, God's Spirit, Which knows all things, and is part of the trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, He is the Third part of the trinity, He was sent to dwell only within man after Christ had payed the price, Because the Holy Spirit could not yet have come, Because Jesus had not been glorified in heaven.

Well, if that is true, than we all have the Holy Spirit already. For the "Holy Spirit" is not some third leg male hanging out in heaven with the rest of the guys, it is our Divine Souls, and each and everyone of us has one, even Atheists, and Wiccans, and the worst "sinner" had one. Glad to have a fundamentalist confirm this for us.

If you want to find out about the nature and personality of the Divine Person, You can read the book of Acts, i would suggest you start with the gospels

Before the "official canon" was authorized, there were over 300 so called "gospels." Which ones do you mean, exactly? And what Jesus (if he ever existed) was overcame by was the presence of the Goddess Sophia, who brings wisdom. Solomon was so enamored with her, he married her.

I take it you are one of those who thinks the whole Bible is "God's word," and that is is all literally true, right? It was in fact the Roman Catholic Church that demanded that all scripture was to be taken literally, or one would be burned alive at the stake. (thousands were) This gave birth to the age of left-brain thinking known as literalism. The only truth the Church wanted people to believe was that only they had the real truth, and that they were the only true Church. It was they that turned Christ from a Spirit, to a literal, flesh and blood man on Earth. They invented this literal Jesus so he could now start a literal church on Earth and hand over the literal keys of life and death to the Church of Rome on Earth, where the Pope was God/Jesus on Earth.

Was Jesus a historical figure walking on the Earth? Well there is very little evidence for these seeing historical records, and the few examples that you find are proven hoaxes. Some links for you, even though you will probably never click on them:

The True Authorship of the New Testament

10 Christ Like Figures That Predate Jesus

The Dark Bible - A Short History of the Bible

Bible Absurdities

The Kolbrin Bible

Enuma Elish (Original Creation Story)

The Epic of Gilgamesh (Original Flood Story)

Spurious changes to the Bible

Jehovah: Ancient Astronaut from the Pleiades?

Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a Dragon?

Titanic Find: Christ's Ossuary (Coffin)

The Rapture Conspiracy

reply to post by Seede

Through this understanding, it can be shown that Sophia is no authority in the celestial realm and had no salvation connection whatsoever in our theology. It would be cultish at the best.

First of all, since you brought up the word, let us look at the word "Cult."

noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3. the object of such devotion.

4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

Dictionary.com

Gee, that sounds a great deal like the Christians in this forum, doesn't it? How do YOU view members of a cult? Probably, you would say that members of a cult have lost the ability to think for themselves. They abandon rational, critical thinking. You would probably say that they do not have any thoughts that are different from their leadership. You would also say that they do not question what their leaders say, and are willing to do ANYTHING they are told to do for salvation, including the killing of others, or themselves. Most Christians would not question what their minister or priest told them, and they would do anything to secure their salvation, if they were told to do it by their leaders. Does this sound like you, friend?

Now let us look at the word "Salvation."

1. the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.

2. the state of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.

3. a source, cause, or means of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.

4. Theology . deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.

Dictionary.com

So why do any of us really need salvation? To save us from the Sumerian Moon God? Sin: A Sumerian crescent Moon God, Sin was depicted as "fierce young bull, thick of horns, perfect of limbs, with a beautiful bird of blue". What could such an old, and no doubt dead God do to me? As for salvation from harm and injury, salvation should have been there when I wrapped a Pontiac around a tree, when a '58 Chevy fell on me, crushing my chest, and when I rolled over a semi, breaking my back, and neck.

What have you to say to this?

reply to post by autowrench


The word "Lucifer" does not appear in the transliteration of the Tanakh of either 1917 or 1988 -- The Hebrew to English is "O Shining One, son of Dawn" The KJV accepts the Latin Vulgate of Jerome as meaning Lucifer. It appears that it is a matter of translation into English understanding.

You have a valid point to consider and it was well explained. O Shining One, son of Dawn is an entity in the Hebrew belief. Regardless of the name this entity was found wanting by God and was cast out of the heavenly realm. The Hebrews call it O Shining One, son of Dawn while others may call it Lucifer or others Devil, Dragon, Serpent.

The word Lucifer is used only once in the KJV text of both old and new testaments. The words Satan is used in the KJV at about 49 times but not used in the Jewish scriptures. The Jewish scriptures name Satan as "Accuser' in both Psalms and Zechariah but call him Adversary in Job. Isaiah calls him O Shining One, son of Dawn. So as you can see that even in the Hebrew to English renditions this entity is called by different names but yet is referenced as to be the same entity.

Now in the Greek to English we have the O Shining One, son of Dawn referenced as Satan in 49 different instances and Devil twice and Dragon, Serpent once. This shows that the translators did translate this evil entity by different references but still meaning the same evil one from heaven.

I don't understand where you get the interpretation of "Day Star" unless it is an interpretation of cultishness which tends to lead one to believe that stars or heavenly bodies control the existence of this creation. That may have come from the days of Enosh (not Enoch) but is not accurate at all.

My summery of this is that translators use the vocabulary which they believe best describes the literature that they are trying to teach. Most Christians are not learned in Hebrew or the ancient Hebrew so must depend upon the interpreter to explain the meaning into their language. Jerome was a brilliant man who translated into and out of Latin but now Latin is a dead language. Not many people can even read Latin today. But to accuse Jerome of deliberately misrepresenting his vocation is really not true. Jerome understood Lucifer as being the same entity as O Shining One, son of Dawn and most scholars have no problem with this.

reply to post by autowrench


You may be correct in your theology and that is your prerogative. I have never intended to offend you and if you are offended then I apologize to you for seeming forward in my theology. There are a great many people who subscribe to cults and are very brilliant people. A cult in my understanding may very well be truth in your understanding and I could be 100% wrong in my theology. That is why most people call it theology.

Wikipedia - The word cult in current popular usage usually refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre.[1] The word originally denoted a system of ritual practices. The word was first used in the early 17th century denoting homage paid to a divinity and derived from the French culte or Latin cultus, ‘worship’, from cult-, ‘inhabited, cultivated, worshipped,’ from the verb colere, 'care, cultivation'.[citation needed]

By this definition it could very well be that I am the cultish one and that Sophia is the normal observation. It depends upon the one who is expressing their theology. This is no apology on my behalf for my theology but it is simply the way expression works in the English expression. I thought this was a Christian thread and being led to believe this, I expressed my theology as best as I knew how. You also expressed your own theology and as was stated you have that right as an educated person to believe as you will. Parting on respect, I wish you well.

reply to post by autowrench


the state of your loss, is related to the curse that is upon mankind.
The reason for all pain and loss, for suffering and death on this earth, is a direct link to the Ruler of this world, and demonic forces that come to steal kill and destroy.

As for my doctrine, There are many writings, from both 5000BC, until today, But one thing im sure of is that the bible is literal, its fact, both reality in the physical and the reality of the unseen, Its translated for the western world today by biblical scholars that have taken the time to study its original source and give us the translated copy for both understand and edifying, so that we might know the mysteries of the Gospel.

I for one would love to read ancient greek, or Hebrew, and buy a copy of the bible and read it in a whole new way of language, But you really think 99% of mankind will read original source form? whether latin, greek, hebrew, arabic, No we live in a western society, where man it seems is to foolish to even understand the English written word, which has been given to them the gentiles as a gift of God.

The bible is more a book of Spiritual truth, and living truthly principles for our life.

I will only read a KJV or a NKJV version because i know its as close to the original source as it can get, King James wanted the people to have thier own copy of the bible, because the cardinals and catholics would not let the common people know the word of God, because it was in latin, so king james hired many scholars and students to help translate the Bible from its Latin source, Into the KJV today which is just the same as it was in 1500AD.


How do i know the Word of God is the word of God? the Holy Spirit reveals it through me, in english, If you were jewish he would speak to your spirit through hebrew, or if you were chinese, He would use chinese language which words are differant all together, But they are the same Spiritual Truth.

This is what the Word of God is today, The Holy Spirits inspiration and revelation of the Written Word of God today.

reply to post by autowrench


Amen. What you said about religion being a cult ... is what I've believed my whole life. Religion in it's very definition is a cult.

reply to post by Seede

I expressed my theology as best as I knew how. You also expressed your own theology and as was stated you have that right as an educated person to believe as you will. Parting on respect, I wish you well.

Well, thank you, friend. You make an excellent point too, different people see a thing in different ways. It is just that many have told me that if I am a Wiccan, that I must be in a cult, or a "coven." To me a cult is a group of people that gather in the same place for religious ritual, and are all devoted to the same entity, and the same dogma. That is not me at all. My son lives with me, as does my wife. Both are Wiccans also, but we are all different, have different Avatars, practices, and ways. We do no ritual, and do not dance around a fire. We have no objects of devotion, no idols to gaze upon.

When I went to church as a young man, I remember it being very ritualistic, and I remember everyone chanting the same way. I remember the preacher yelling loudly about hell and damnation, and telling us all that we lived in a world of sin, and that only we would see the Kingdom of Heaven. I heard railings against everything not Christian. My Mom would pray for hours, and say "praise the Lord" 50 times a day. To me, this is cultish behavior if I ever saw it. Now I know that today's church is watered down, and not like that anymore. For the most part, anyway. Some still take up rattlesnakes, and drink poison, to prove their devotion, and I can see the symbol of the cross everywhere in my town. We get people coming to our door with petitions to ban holidays because they are "Pagan." Our son's friends, and their parents call us "Satan worshipers."

Do you see what I said what I said?

A cult is based of a set of rituals, actions, deeds and based of a following of a trend or norm.

The problem that people misunderstand the bible, and assume its a ritualistic book, a set of rules to live by and that they have to make things and do certain things to be better or closer to God.


Jesus came to reveal the truth and to provide the way to it.
That the only way to the Father, To eternal life, and To live the life God had intended for mankind,
Is through Jesus, Whom is today, and always will be a person, and His image is what we are to be
transformed into, His likeness, His Love, His nature, His Mercy, His Grace, His Peace, His Life, His Glory.
The whole reason we exist is to fellowship and have an intimate relationship with the Father.
Just like God made Man, Adam for fellowship with Him, a character in His likeness, and Glory, Like Him to fellowship with, Like a Father to a child, who wants to share and give the best to His Child revealing all things. This is the reason man is such a fascinating amazing intelligent, creative, wise, inspiring, being, that craves knowledge, seeking the truth, trying to find awnsers, Is that this nature is woven into our DNA, Our imagination is a gift from God. How come Jesus said to take all thoughts into captivity that dont line up with the Word of God, Because He knew the power of thought, and the spoken word, creative nature and power of God.

Thats why man must guard his mouth, and to be quick to think and slow to speak.
To speak blessings, not cursing, to speak life not death, That life and death are in the power of the tongue.

Matthew 15:11

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

reply to post by autowrench


That was very well explained and you have opened my eyes to some things that I was not aware of. I myself was a draftee in WWll and served only because I was forced to serve the establishment. I am now an old man going on ninety years with a loss of half of my left side which was damaged in the service. Many people have to suffer because we do not sit down and listen to each other with out shouting and with anger overtaking our common sense.

As a youngster I was invincible and as far removed from Christianity as any man could be. After being decimated, I began studying Judaic and Christian beliefs and found my answers to eternal life through the Christian Jesus. My entire life's work then revolved around the Hebrew and Christian God. I have written many non fiction books on the subjects of Resurrection and New Jerusalem and am convinced (only in my heart) that this is my avenue of redemption. As I said, I could be as dead wrong in my conviction as any other man could be in his. I love people at face value and not in context of race or creed and I believe if we explain this concept to the ones we meet, the world would be far better than to insist that we are some what better than others. Thank you for listening.

This is a question for InnerstellarOne:

Can you show me a verse in the bible that says anything about God giving man free will?

Originally posted by InnerstellarOne
We know that when adam and eve were removed and cast out of the Garden of eden, Now in the garden was the Knowledge of good and evil tree, right?, And there was the Tree of LIFE!, Now God two placed a flaming cherubim, with a zigzagging sword to Block any ever returning or entering into the garden. Genesis 3:24.
If man had ever had entered back into the garden, He would have eaten of the tree of life, and would have remained in eternal life in sin.

WHAT IF......Eve had plucked and eaten from the Tree of Life instead?!?!? Would she and Adam still have been "sinners" living in an eternal life in sin?

reply to post by Gridrebel


Thats exactly right, Man would have lived eternity on earth in a sin state. Unable to die.

But God removed man from the garden and gaurded it with the flaming sword.

reply to post by Barbacamanitu


NKJV

Genesis 2:16-17

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, You shall surely die",

The reason man sinned was not because of the temptation, But disobedience to Gods commandment that they can eat anything except that tree, But He could not stop them from eating, he could only tell them the risks and consequences today, Much like we makes choices, To do right or wrong, good or bad, No one will stop us, But there are reactions to every action.

reply to post by InnerstellarOne


That is not a very good example of free will to me, I'm sorry. Please address the logical fallacy here:

God told adam and eve not to eat the fruit. The fruit contained the knowledge of good and evil. Couldn't you say that this fruit also gave the knowledge of right and wrong?

So God is telling telling these two people that don't know the difference between good and evil not to eat this fruit.

Adam and eve did not know what evil was. They did not know that bad things could happen, or that a decision could be wrong. What would you expect these two people to do? Weigh the consequences and make an informed decision? Of course not! They had no idea that they shouldn't disobey God.

What reason would they have to obey him? They had no past experience to base their decision on. In my opinion, God telling them not to eat it and the serpent telling them to eat it are 100% equal, just from different sources.

How did they know that God was good and the serpent was bad? Maybe they thought that God was bad and the serpent was good? (of course this cannot be, because they didn't know that "bad" existed yet).

That is one thing I'd love to see a legitimate answer to, and not a cookie cutter "the bible has the answers" response.

Back to free will:
2 Th.2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

Rom.9:11-22
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

reply to post by Barbacamanitu


My understanding of the tree that God forbid Adam to eat of was the tree of the knowledge to do good or evil. Torah teaches that Eve was the offender who disobeyed that which Adam taught her. That was why Adam was also punished as well as Eve. Neither Adam nor Eve disobeyed the command with malice towards their Creator whereas the beast (serpent) did have malice towards the creator.

All of this was inevitable from the onset of creation. The purpose of creation was to bring forth a family of people who would love the Creator by their own choice. Naturally you had to have a choice to do good or bad or the entire purpose of creation would have been moot.

In effect then, God knew (by His foreknowledge) that this would happen and it had to happen for His own purpose. This is the reason that the tree of everlasting life was also presented to Adam. God would not be truth unless He presented both avenues to Adam. The same thing applies to all consciousness. All existence must have an opposite in order to establish a fact. Hot vs cold etc must be presented else it cannot be perceived by this creation.

I may be 100% off base but this is what I have been taught.