Thoughts on the possible Physics involved with E.T. Craft

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Originally posted by ZacharyW
On an intuitive level I feel:

Craft are actually living and for the most part are manifested by thought as apposed to built. (but this would depend greatly on 'whos' craft)

Craft can be communicated to/controlled by thought solely.

Anti-gravity is used. (nothing is being pushed/pulled or propelled)

that's all i got

The concept that thought can be used as a way to navigate Space/Time has been around for a long time. Frank Herbert the author of DUNE used this in his books.

One thing you are off on is that although you are spot on in your explaination that nothing is being pushed, pulled or propelled....E.T. is not using ANTIGRAVITY. Rather they are USING GRAVITIES EFFECT.....thus a GAVITIC DRIVE....uses a massive amount of energy via a Matter/Antimatter reaction that is compounded expotentialy....in a Multiversal reaction.

In simpler words....a matter/antimatter reaction...even though it releases many times the effect of a Fusion reaction.....not only produces energy in this Universal state....but MANY Universal states that are all connected by the nature of Antimatter....which is a product and part of another divergent Universe....annihilating Matter from our Universes state.

This amount of compounded energy is needed to represent something of Gret Mass....as matter and energy are interchangable....the Universe sees this Massive amount of Energy which is connected nd componded in the Multiverse as great mass and FOLDS SPACE so as to create a SINGULARITY....but one that can be directed. Thus...E.T. craft....FALL from point A. to Point B. as all points are the same point in a singularity. The craft travels without ever moving. So E.T. craft use Gravity. Antigravity is a whole different ball game. Split Infinity

If they are able to fold space enough to propel them many light years (like the Guild Navigators in _Dune_?) then when the pull in the space and release it:

a) it should take a huge amount of energy
b) it will cause strong gravitational waves to ripple out

If they use this in the vincinity of the solar system we should have seen some effects; already there is an extremely sensitive gravitational wave detector LIGO which so far has seen nothing above noise. They're thinking of trying to get signals from distant black holes & neutron stars---if there's a warp drive going off right in the neighborhood.....

reply to post by zorgon


They could also be old fashioned "Astral travelers".And they might not know they are traveling or then again they might. ,Pheraps the only way to travel the Universe is to leave the human body,which after all said and done, complies with the definition of machine, allbeit bio chemical, but also to actually be aware of the change in your circumstances after the information which actually made your body possible, recycles said body. Which brings us to the fact that its information that has constructed the reality we operate in. The reality is maintained by one of the two states of conciousness that we enjoy, which is by sleeping...if we dont sleep everything turns to chaos very quickly. So the question might be not in asking why we sleep but why are we awake?...and pheraps the answer is that having a body focuses the mind?..and for all the states of conciousness that we are capable of, one is the one that causes a light to be seen flying through the sky?..if the observer looks for it, and of course these lights have been noticed to react with the observer.So the drive system might be conciousness itself.Then if that is so the answer is simply to be aware.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by Erno86
reply to post by Harte

 

Is their any chance that the Higgs boson, could possibly prove that light photon's have mass? If so.... what would be the implications for a faster than light propulsion system, on a starship that uses light photon's as thrust; thus providing forward propulsion.

Thanks,
Erno86

You can't use light to go faster than light.

Harte

Let me drop back and punt. Could it be possible, that a photon propulsion system, could propel a starcraft up to near the speed of light?

Thanks,

Erno86

Originally posted by mbkennel

Originally posted by Erno86
reply to post by Harte

 

Is their any chance that the Higgs boson, could possibly prove that light photon's have mass?

No. It's almost the opposite, the Higgs mechanism explains why weak interactions have bosons with nonzero mass when photons are zero mass.

Photons have been tested experimentally and have zero mass to extremely high precision.

The Higgs mechanism explains most directly why the electroweak bosons W+,W-,Z0 have masses in experimentally accessible regions while the naive theory starts with zero mass.

"The theory incorporated a proposal, most closely associated with the English physicist Peter Higgs, for how fundamental particles acquire mass. Roughly speaking, the mass of a particle, much like the mass of a truck, is the resistance you'd feel were you to push on it.

The question is, where does this resistance come from? The answer, according to Higgs idea, is that all of space is filled with an invisible substance --- the Higgs field --- which acts like a pervasive molasses, exerting a drag force as particles try to accelerate through it. The 'stickier' a particle is, the more molasses-like Higgs field affects it, and the more massive the particle appears.

The emptiest of empty space, vacuumed clean of matter and radiation, would still be permeated by the Higgs field. Higgs thus suggested a rewriting of the very definition of nothingness, filling otherwise empty space with a substance capable of bestowing upon particles their mass.

The Higgs particle would be short-lived, quickly decaying into other, more familar particles [like photons, particles of light], and only by examining the decay products could the researchers accumulate evidence for the Higgs."

Source: Waiting for the Higgs Particle, by Brian Greene, a professor of physics and mathematics at Columbia, is the author of "The Hidden Reality: Parallel Universes and the Deep Laws of the Cosmos"
New York Times OP-ED Thursday, December 15, 2011.

My question to you or anybody else--- Since a light photon is a particle, do you think that Higgs boson, could give a light photon a false sense of mass.

This could possibly explain why Black Holes suck in light photons.

Thanks,

Erno86

Originally posted by Erno86
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

But will a matter/antimatter propulsion system, produce up to the speed of light speeds or beyond; for a starship?


Thanks,

Erno86

86....this answer pertans to both your question and the poster who answered for me underneath your questions.....there is no PROPULTION....and the poster who answered for me...would be right if the properties and reality of effect of a Matter/Antimatter reaction were limited to just one Universal state....they are not.

In order to Fold Space or warp it to the degree that is needed to create a state of SINGULARITY....that is a reality of all points of position in our Universe being the same point....or ONE DIMENTIONALITY. Our Universe has many dimentional geometric states....Super String has counted 11....M-Theory....10....but there is most likely more....but lets for now use Three....length, width and height and as a Fourth...TIME.

All the geometric dimentional states are connected and partialy goverened by one another....thus....you can't have a atoms without dimentions...one, two and three...as well as Time which is considered a dimentional state or a byproduct of the existance of at least four dimentions....in reality....you really need at least 10 or 11 since sub-atomic particles of the quantum world....exist and react only when you have more than 4-D.

So...when an E.T. craft folds space....it uses a Strong Force of Gravity....naturally occuring Element to create a containment field to both hold and direct the massive amount of energy derived from such a reaction....but as the other poster said...there is not enough matter or antimatter in the Universe to cause a large enough energy generating reaction to create such a fold in space....but THERE IS enough of both when you understand that such a reaction and the Matter and Antimatter used to create it...generate energy from MULTIPLE UNIVERSAL REALITIES. Thus the effect is exponentially increased and enhanced by drawing energy from the reaction which is occuring in more than one Universal constant...it is occuring in many Divergent Universal states that are all interconnected and accessed by the reaction itself. There is no propultion rather travel via one dimentional jumping from point a to point b. Split Infinity

Originally posted by flexy123

Originally posted by lamonster99
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

They, and the vehicle were less old than the ground crew and the rest of earth once they landed- but they did not travel anywhere-anytime,

I think those are semantics which are not valid anyway because we deal with relativity and its effects, and each use of words like "distance", "time", "position" etc. causes more confusion because it's CONCEPTS which have no place in relativity.

So is the term "travel".

If we take the extreme example they would have flown with almost LS....then stop the shuttle, leave it and see that all OTHERS back on Earth are already stone-old or dead...while for them only an hour or so passed..i think it's legit to say "time travel" happened.

(They enter the shuttle, friend on Earth is 20 years old...they come back...friend is 88 years old..so they "traveled" in time. Wouldn't you agree?)

I agree that travel is a poor term for it but words need to be used to explain the math. As far as Time Dialation....and like in a movie most people have seen....Planet of the Apes....the Astronauts...Charlton Heston being one of them....traveled in a non-one dimentional way....they supposedly were using a Nuclear Fusion generated form of propultion that slowley accelerated them up to or close to light speed....their bodies were placed in stasis to "Sleep" the 10 or more years it was going to take them to reach a star system with an Earth Like planet in it.....then slowley decelerate as to not kill anyone aboard beore landing on the planet....something went wrong and they landed back on Earth....but the time cloccks mesuring the Time Dialation showed that although they had only been in stasis for 10 plus years or so....the Earth Time clock was showing a passing of 3500 years or so.

The faster an object ravels and the furthur away from a Gravity Well that is created by an large mass....such as a star or planet....the greater the Time Dialation....thus in their case 10 years equaled 3500 years passed on Earth. We know this is true because of not only the clock experiments on the shuttle and other craft we have sent up....but we deal with Time Dialation all the time as all GPS satellites....which orbit the Earth at 20,000 km and each orbit lasts 12 hours....and are traveling at a speed of about 14,000 km per hour....have to be constantly time reset as their internal clocks get 38 microseconds a day. So for GPS to work for us on Earth...the satellites must be accurate to within 20 to 30 nano-seconds.....there are 38,000 nanoseconds in 38 microseconds....so we must contantly update the GPS satellites intenal clocks. Split Infinity

Originally posted by Erno86
reply to post by Harte

 

Is their any chance that the Higgs boson, could possibly prove that light photon's have mass? If so.... what would be the implications for a faster than light propulsion system, on a starship that uses light photon's as thrust; thus providing forward propulsion.


Thanks,

Erno86

edit on 14-12-2011 by Erno86 because: typo

edit on 14-12-2011 by Erno86 because: spelling

Acually...it has already been proven that Photons have a Micro-mass. But that I believe has nothing to do with the all ellusive ...most likely non-existant...Higgs-Boson. Split Infinity

reply to post by mbkennel


This statement about photons is incorrect...google it...Photons have been shown to have a Micromass.
Split Infinity

reply to post by mbkennel


You have made a very good point....such large amounts of directed energy would cause a Gravitational detecter to go nuts! But they do not register as the Gravitational effect of Folding Space and it's cause and effect....are occuring in Many different and infinite divergent universal realities...so the effect is spread out amongst infinite Space/Time continuums...making detection very hard...because the effect is so tiny once split up amongst the infinite. Split Infinity

Originally posted by Erno86
Let me drop back and punt. Could it be possible, that a photon propulsion system, could propel a starcraft up to near the speed of light?

Thanks,

Erno86

Absolutely.

But it would be easier and faster to do this with an ion drive, which already exists.

Harte

Originally posted by Erno86

My question to you or anybody else--- Since a light photon is a particle, do you think that Higgs boson, could give a light photon a false sense of mass.

This could possibly explain why Black Holes suck in light photons.

The answer is "no" and "no".

Quantum field theory consists of writing down a mathematical object called a "Lagrangian" which is a vector/tensor valued composite object consisting of all fields which are supposed to be real physics in the universe. This is not derivable from mathematics, but is a physical assumption of "what is real stuff". Inside it you build various fields (Higgs and electromagnetism among them) and also write terms in the right structure which govern the interaction between them, this controls how particle reactions work. From the Lagrangian you can essentially get quantum 'equations of motion', and then you compute the dynamics of how things interact and move, and this can be pretty subtle. In the Higgs case it is an "effective" theory which if you compute the effect of the interaction between a base particle which may be a 'massless' electron, it gives the same results as if the electron had a mass. In physics there is often little difference between "particle X has property Y" and "particle X acts as if it has property Y", if the "as if" applies to all conceivable circumstances.

The Higgs terms have a non-zero interaction with the W and Z and most other particles, but there is a zero interaction term with the electromagnetic field, so on its own Higgs will not create mass in photons. If Higgs coupled with photons we probably would have seen much more evidence directly for it by now. (Or if it does couple it is so with an extremely tiny coefficient so that the effects are unnoticable).

This idea of the "effectively" causing mass actually has a familiar analogy. Think about classical electromagnetic waves in a clear dielectric, like glass. If the wavelength is much larger than atomic separations (like for visible light), then the collective effect of the polarizations cause macrocopic change in dielectric constant, and so effectively the speed of light is slower in the glass than it is in free space. In a very rough sense you can say that the long wavelength photons "have mass" in the dielectric. Now this is only a property of moving through trillions of other atoms and feeling them 'collectively'. If the wavelength is much shorter, say like an X-ray, then these photons you will measure as moving at the speed of light in vacuum and then colliding one-on-one with atoms.

Sort of the Higgs field is as if there is a dielectroid 'thing' in all of space fundamentally and acts as if happens to retard the motion of most, but not all other fields & particles. Because of something called spontaneous symmetry breaking it is hypothesized that the vacuum state of the Higgs field is not zero, but some non-zero base value which can cause the interactions above. Since fields always have their own excitations in QFT, an excitation in this field is the Higgs particle, otherwise called the Goddamned particle by Leon Lederman, changed to the "God" particle by his book editor for commercial reasons.

BTW, I am *not* a particle physicist, so this is my rough and probably very oversimplified understanding of the real Standard Model. The thing about the God particle name is straight from Peter Higgs, who is pretty pissed off about the 'God particle' nonsense.

Black holes are unrelated to Higgs directly as far as we know---all mass curves space macroscopically, and electromagnetic waves are affected by this curved space exactly the same as all other particles.

BTW2: It is not well appreciated that the Higgs effect only actually explains maybe 5% of the mass of regular "stuff". Most of the mass in every ordinary object in your life comes from the nuclei, i.e. protons and neutrons, and not electrons. And most of the mass of them is actually in the energy of the gluons binding the quarks, not from the Higgs field effects. Higgs is the capstone of the electroweak theory but the strong nuclear interaction is more important for real life mass.

delete, duplicate

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by mbkennel

 

You have made a very good point....such large amounts of directed energy would cause a Gravitational detecter to go nuts! But they do not register as the Gravitational effect of Folding Space and it's cause and effect....are occuring in Many different and infinite divergent universal realities...so the effect is spread out amongst infinite Space/Time continuums...making detection very hard...because the effect is so tiny once split up amongst the infinite. Split Infinity

If the effect in our universe is really small, then you could only do something really small and not warp to Ceti Alpha Five.

if you want real warp drive, you have to warp our space a huge amount, and when you release it, you get reverberations like in any elastic medium which supports waves, like the metric of Einsteinian general relativity.

BTW I couldn't find any information about evidence of a non-zero photon mass. Are you sure you didn't mean neutrino? These are now definitely believed to have mass, albeit a very small mass. (so they should travel a touch slower than photons, not faster as the controversial recent experiment seemed to indicate--needs three-way replication in my opinion).

Originally posted by mbkennel

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by mbkennel

 

You have made a very good point....such large amounts of directed energy would cause a Gravitational detecter to go nuts! But they do not register as the Gravitational effect of Folding Space and it's cause and effect....are occuring in Many different and infinite divergent universal realities...so the effect is spread out amongst infinite Space/Time continuums...making detection very hard...because the effect is so tiny once split up amongst the infinite. Split Infinity

If the effect in our universe is really small, then you could only do something really small and not warp to Ceti Alpha Five.

if you want real warp drive, you have to warp our space a huge amount, and when you release it, you get reverberations like in any elastic medium which supports waves, like the metric of Einsteinian general relativity.

BTW I couldn't find any information about evidence of a non-zero photon mass. Are you sure you didn't mean neutrino? These are now definitely believed to have mass, albeit a very small mass. (so they should travel a touch slower than photons, not faster as the controversial recent experiment seemed to indicate--needs three-way replication in my opinion).

edit on 16-12-2011 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)

Very bright and directly proposed response....I like you already! LOL!

OK....you are looking at Gravitational Effect being a byproduct of some other Quantum based pasticle or field effect....rather than just looking at Gravitational Effect....as well as Gravity itself....existing because of Geometric Construction of the Space/Time Continuum.

The reason the all ellusive Unified Field Theory has elluded us is that we seek the connectivity between the Macro and the Quantum in our one Universal Reality....when in fact....the very existance of our Universe and it's Physical Laws both Macro and Quantum....are dependent upon and partially governed by MULTIPLE UNIVERSAL divergent realities.

This does not mean that Every possible Universal state is governing our Physical laws....I am sure that there are Universes within the Multiverse....that have coletely different physical laws as well as logic....but the ones that we are concerned with...are the Universal States that are divergent realities to our own. Such as a Universe almost duplicate to our but in the other one....I had juice instead of coffee this morning.

This is the connective aspect that allows dispersal of cause and effect of very specific interactions....such as a Matter/Antimatter reaction. The Antimatter is matter that has leeked into this...our Universal reality....and once matter of two different Divergent Universal States come in contact with each other.....BOOM! At the same time....the amount of "BOOM!"....is being governed by two aspects...1. The amount of Matter and Antimatter in the innitial reaction and 2....this reactions ability to open a flood gate between Universal states. If the reaction is properly contained by a form of Strong Force of Gravity containment field....and proper amounts of Matter/Antimatter are detonated...the reaction becomes self-sustaining as long as matter is feed into it from our Universal state.

As the reaction releases vast amounts of energy....the beginning of where you want to get to begins. The energy released and directed....and don't ask me how this is done or how they navigate as I have NO idea....the creation of a gravity well is not only occuring in our Universe....but in all Divergent Universal realities asociated with ours. Thus the folding of space or singularity is not only occuring partialy inour Universe but in all that are connected...the craft exists in a No-State until Navigational parameters are invoked. This means...it is a cumulative cause and effect...as far as navigation and to what Universe they are traveling...it maybe that they do not travel within their original Universal state and jump to and back maybe travel to Universes that are so close in identity...that they would be almost impossible to compare....plus...the craft is doing this not only in it's one Universal Reality...but craft are doing this with infinite versions of E.T....in all divergent realities...thus...ellimination of Gravitational shockwaves as well as ability to travel anywhere....anytime.
Split Infinity

Sorry....almost forgot...as far as Photons having a micro mass....this is determined by the way in which we have improperly defined what mass is and what creates mass. And we had better start revising our concepts because not only are they wrong but they will not get us to where we want to be...that being....masters of the UFT.

Right now....we are determining mass of lets say an atom of Hydrogen....or molecule of H2....lets use just one Hydrogen Atom....One Proton....One electron...Atomic number...ONE atomic Mass...one. The Atomic mass is always described as Relative as to account for different isotopes...so if you look on a Periodic Table...it will say...Relative Atomic Mass....Atomic Mass is determined by the number of Protons and Neutrons added together and the Atomic Number is the number of Protons in an Atom.

What this table does not account for is the changing existance of sub-atomic particles in any given Proton or Neutron as these particles are made up of smaller particles such as Quarks, Gluones, Leptons....etc....some of these sub-particles such as quarks change quantity and are never more than a certain quantity or less than a certain quantity in a Proton or Neutron....but they can exist in quantity between these minimums and maximums at will....where they literaly blink in and out of existance...plus there is a condition known as Proton Decay....wich I will not go into now.

The point is....what is it specifically that is mass? If the sub-particles that make up the two larger atomic particles...protons and neutrons...are in a constant state of flux as far as the particles that make up these two particles that supposedly account for mass or the material that causes Space/Time to Warp or display Space/Times Dimentional construction and interconnection One Dimentionality....which is the very basis for what is Gravity....and since it appears that the Higgs-Boson Particle is but fantasy....it would have been found already if it existed....and the fact that the U.S. Govenment cancelled a 1980's Super Collider known as the DESERTRON....which was almost complete and they had already dumped over 10 Billion Dollars into before cancelling a Super Collider which would have made the LHC look like a TRICYCLE....compared to a HARLEY....the Desertron was MUCH LARGER....it tends to make one wonder....why did they stop building something 30 years ago that Europe has just started experimenting with a year ago....

I will tell you....BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNEW WHAT THE RESULTS WOULD BE! So....what is mass....where is the Graviton? And why does a Photon...supposedly a particle and wave that travels 186,300mps....possibly have a Mass? It is because mass is not what we think it is....or rather....Mass should be defined by the ability of Time/Space to be warped because.....if a photon had zero mass....it should not be able to obtain ENERTIA! Light does change direction due to a gravity well such as a Blackhole....but if Photon had no mass...even the tiniest of mass as we speak of here....then how is it that a Laser can be used to propel a disk upward as has been seen on many a TV show....oh they will say that it is because of the Enertia that the particle has obtained....but is not F=MA? Split Infinity

Originally posted by rickyrrr
reply to post by Harte

 

Case in point: the higgs should have been found by now and it has not. Efforts to search in another direction do not necessarily mean they will succeed. I am personally ready to place bets on the higgs never being found.

Are you still willing?

I could use some cash.

Harte