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EU Hijacks Olympic Glory

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posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by muppet


With respect paperclip you of all people should be aware of the dangers inherent in artificial unity. Maybe Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia etc should put aside THEIR "oh-so-precious national pride" compete under the flag of Yugoslavia? I'm sure that would be a popular move, after all you ARE all Yugoslavian by birth, right?!








Ok, my reply was a bit...well, I was pissed off this morning because of other things. Had to come out somewhere.

What I meant was that the flag is purely symbolic, we are all still separate nations in all sport events.

One more thing to consider: last time I checked, the UNION of England, Scotland, Whales and Northern Irland was doing just fine






posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 05:31 PM
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Thats' ok paperclip. my response was probably a little edgy as well, (possibly for similar reasons, or possibly not..may best not to go there!.. anyway, sorry
)

I do understand what you mean paperclip, about the flag being symbolic. I guess it's a case of perspective really.

From British point of view we have a system that has served us well, almost unchanged, for literally hundreds of years. That being the case, changing it seems like an unnecessary risk. There is little to gain, but absolutely everything to lose.

It's also also utterly different from the European way of doing this politically, which is one of the reasons the British tend to be skeptical of European politics. From our point of view, each move towards more political unity is an undermining of our own perfectly good system.

This Olympics issue comes across to me yet another attempt to force EU policy on an unwilling UK public. In itself it may not be much, but bit by bit, change by change, get a distinct feeling of being "assimilated" into what is still in imperfect, alien political system.

You're right, our own UK union is strong. It is indeed the oldest, most successful union of it's kind in the world, but in establishing it a lot of blood was lost, a lot of hate was garnered, and in fact the killing is still going on, in Northern Ireland. Scottish and Welsh nationalism exists to this day, though it is benign, and that's centuries after the Kingdom was united.

Maybe Europe will be united one day, as a single nation, but if done too quickly there is a very real chance of it breaking up again, like the USSR, or of course Yugoslavia. I would hate so see Europe descend into a bitter civil war. if it did it could end up making WW2 look like a playground fight, since it wouldn't be elected governments at war with each other, it would be extremist nationalist movements, unhindered by such issues as international law or human rights.


I guess it's not so much the EU/ Olympic thing itself I have the problem with, but what it represents. to be fair I probably didn't make that s clear as I might have.




[edit on 1/9/04 by muppet]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:34 PM
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I amnot right wing, yet I oppose the EU. I see the united states of Europe comming soon, and its a bad thing.

The united States of America is my example. What was meant to be a loose confederation of soverign states turned into one big centralized mess, with the oppresive spiders nest known as Washington dictating thier policy and laws to me, 3500 miles on the other coast, with no concern for how we feel mout here.
\
All you Europhiles, suck EU ass at your own risk. federalization and lack of soverignty is only a matter of time if you accept the EU.

If you want to for the perfect union, you seriously need to draft a heavy agreement with serious checks an balances, and chains and bondage non the EU parliment to prevent it from speading its evil iron grip to form the same nightmare as in the US.

Oh, sure, were a world power because were united, but whats it mean when the inside is sad? id rather live in a loose confederation of states, with little international power, but total soverignty, independance, and self determination that is happy within than some behemoth central dictatorship.

It always ends up this way. This olympics thing is just the beginning.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 07:30 PM
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I can fully understand the Daily Mail (ffs!) attempting to make a mountain out of this mole-hill.

We're all supposed to be against and appalled at european unity and the expression of it that carrying the EU flag as well as each national flag woud represent.

(By the way who is kidding who here? 'The Daily Mail' is a piece of right-wing garbage just like the Murdock owned 'The Sun' and 'The Times' and until lately the Black owned 'Daily Telegraph'.)

The EU is a collective (which is one major reason why those on the Anglo-US 'conservative' right hate it) which gives european nations the ability to stand as a genuine equal to the USA in world trade (which is the other reason why those on the right hate it).

It is run by directly elected representitives and those either from or nominated by the individual governments.

It is true that there is something of a 'democratic deficit' in the EU's institutions but that is almost entirely as a result of the national governemnts continual refusal to hand over power in meaningful amounts to the EU. The idea that the EU really dictates anything of any real substance to anybody -or ever could - is a convenient myth and this is the proof of it.

The imagined EU-empire where nations are 'forced' into anything is a myth. Comparisons with Yugoslavia are absurd. Countries can leave if they want......but not one will due to the huge benefits of membership.

The EU is now a collective of approx 480millions with a realistic potential to go to over 550millions in the near future. The world's largest functioning international collective, no less.

It's true there is an anti-EU fringe (particularly in the UK) but to imagine this is a majority (even in the UK) is ridiculous.

Even in the UK the vast majority of the anti-EU crowd in Britain haven't the guts to stand for a pull-out because they know they would get nowhere.



[edit on 1-9-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 09:10 PM
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I do admit that the issue of a Federal Europe, and whether that is what the EU will eventually become, is open to question. There are strong hints at it from some quarters in Europe, but offically, as you say, that is not the intention. I do think we are at the "early warning stage" right now, and I may be wrong. In fact I do hope I'm wrong, but I'll continue to voice my concerns anyway just in case. Think Churchill. Think Chartwell in the 1930's.

As to British public opinion though, we are most certainly against further integration. Just take a look at these historical MORI polls on the SIngle Currency. They show the Euro-Skeptics outnumber the Europhiles by around 2:1, and have done consistently since at least 1991.

68% of the country is more than just a fringe!!

It seems that dispite the propaganda put about by some pro-europeans, business too, is against against the single currency, with 61% wishing to keep sterling.

As for EU membership overall, here's some more MORI figures, showing that the British people are in favour of remaining in the EU, but only just. 54% for staying in, 46% for getting out.

Interesting reading indeed, and it puts paid to the idea that only right wing nationalists or xenophobes are Euroskeptic.


EDIT :

btw, Despite my stance on EU political integration, I do want do add that I too am immensely proud of Europe, and do consider myself European in a cultural sense. I just don't think this means we should become one political unit. It is our diversity of political structures and governments, not just our cultures or languages, that makes Europe what it is.



[edit on 2/9/04 by muppet]



posted on Sep, 2 2004 @ 04:40 AM
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United States of America and United Europe are two completely different things. Europe will never reach the level of unity like USA. Several reasons: completely different languages, 1000s of years of history, culture, different mentality of people, different way of life. I don't see french speaking any other language except theirs anytime soon. Same goes for all other nations. There will never be a totalistic big-brother-like Empire of Europe. It is impossible. The EU is mainly based on economy, big free market, and that is a GOOD thing. That is the only way we can be a competition to USA. Single countries are way too small to do it.
We all still have our own presidents, parlament, football leagues, school systems, language, history, music, and that will never change.

So, carying a EU flag NEXT to your own on olympics only says that we are united individuals, nothing more, nothing less.

The model of EU should be applied in south america and arab countries too, IMO. It would solve a lot of problems.



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