Preparing A Friend For The Afterlife

page: 1
16
<<   2 >>

log in

join

posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 05:31 PM
link   
Of my closest friends, I've known Chester the longest. He and I were the only two musicians we knew in our little town, and as teenagers, we learned how to jam from each other. We also learned how to be cool, how to break the law, and how to survive on the street from each other. In essence, we raised each other as adults; well, if what you consider being an adult involves competing with the rest of humanity, surfing the waves of opportunity and misfortune, and mixing it up within the court of the king without exposing yourself as the bumbling neophyte that we each are deep inside.

The rest of it - loving honestly, serving graciously, and committing fully to that which is greater than oneself - came from other teachers as I grew from boyhood. Chester was the counterbalance to all that. If there's a Heaven at the end of all of this, neither he nor I have any business awaiting us within its walls. While I'm as prone to forgiving my own sins as anyone else, I'm not delusional. I know where Chetty and I have been, and what we did when granted the option to do the right thing.

I got a call from Chester last night. He'd been in a car accident, and while it seemed as if it was one of his "dude, you will not believe what happened to me" calls, after a short bit, I became aware that this call was very different; if only in why he felt the need to call. And the truth is that unless you were me, and unless you'd known Chetty as long as I have, the real impetus behind the call would've slipped right past you. After all, both he and I are experts in cloaking our motivations. What he was calling to tell me was that he was - most likely - on his way out of here.

Chester's been dealing with Type II Diabetes for 10 years now. His first sugar emergency happened as the dust cloud from the 2nd tower (WTC#1) was still making its way through lower Manhattan on Sept 11, 2001. I remember arriving at my brother's house - where Chet and I had been building a deck - as he was being packed into a car and rushed to the ER with what turned out to be a blood sugar level well over 400. From there, he began his life of refusing to take the issue seriously, periodically conducting master classes in how to flagrantly leverage modern medical technology on behalf of doing exactly what you want in spite of the deleterious impact it all will obviously have on your chronic condition.

Maybe it's true that he should've dropped for good years ago, and due to his own belligerent disregard. He'd be the first to agree with anyone suggesting it. Still, I've been glad that he's survived. Last night was the first time that either of us seriously considered his condition to be life threatening.

The night before, he'd been driving from his mom's place in Spartanburg SC to the little mountain retreat he maintains in the northeast corner of Georgia, after having a 40 minute blackout of some sort that scared the sh*t out of the poor woman. Like most primal beasts, Chet felt the need to get back to his home as soon as his stability returned, regardless of the fact that climbing into that truck and driving off alone was clearly the wrong choice, given what had just occurred. It was another hour into the journey, when the blackout returned, and his near death adventure began as his truck left the highway and plunged down a 50 foot embankment, rolling some number of times and resting on its top amidst heavy brush and small broken trees.

Luckily, his launch into the darkness had been witnessed by other motorists, and there was a contingent at the top of the embankment, shining flashlights and calling him back up from where his truck rest. Lucky, too, was the fact that he'd suffered no serious injury. He'd even had the strength to make the climb to the road surface on his own. Wondrous technology those seat belts and air bags are. He'd woke up hanging from his belts with deflated bags from one end of the cab to the other.

"All I remember is screaming 'No! No! No!', but it wasn't me screaming," he said, trying to describe the experience. "I mean, it was me, but I wasn't doing the screaming as far as I could tell. It was like I was in the cab with me, while that me was screaming."

"That's kinda what they say about Near Death Experiences," I said. "Like you're there, but..."

"I know," he said. "That's what I'm saying. I was there but I was like hanging out and it was like I wasn't worried about sh*t. Not about any of it. I could feel the truck going down the hill, and it rolled, but I was like it was a roller coaster ride or something like that. Like it wasn't anything to be afraid of.

"And I never went upside down. The whole inside of the truck just spun around me as I was there. Like I didn't have a body that was part of what was going on. Not until the whole thing finally stopped. Then it was like I was sitting there and looking down at the floor, where there was...like it was a flashlight on the floor. And I'm thinking 'Why's there a flashlight on the floor?', but it turned out to be the dome light on the ceiling, but I didn't know it until I came around better and realized that I was actually upside down. Until I came around better, I thought the dome light was a flashlight or something at my feet. Really f*cked up, man."

"Wow."

"Yeah, and then I'm hearing 'Climb to the light!'. Voices coming from a distance, and I finally realize that I'm in my truck and it's all smashed, and I gotta get out. All this smell of gas, and I can hear those voices, but now it sounds real, and not like I'm dead or something and being told to 'Go to the light'... y'know...? I can see through the side door window that's gone that there are flashlights up there, and people. So, I crawl out and make my way through all that crap my truck's upside down in, and get up the embankment."

"So, it was a sugar thing?"

"Well, yeah," he said. "They tested me in the ambulance and it was over 400, but I didn't have anything to eat for hours, and then, when they hit me with insulin, I dropped to like 60, and they had to start feeding me ice cream and candy and stuff to bring me back up. Up and down and up and down all night."

It was then that I realized that he wasn't calling about a car wreck that he'd survived, but that this call was about the very real possibility that he wasn't going to survive the diabetes condition, and that it could take him out at any moment - literally.

"Why are you home right now? Why did they let you walk out of the hospital?"

He laughed. "Dude, I don't have any insurance. They have to take me in, but they aren't required to keep me there after they've stabilized me. Not if I can't pay."

"But they know that your sugar will spike or evaporate again. They do know that, don't they?"

"Well, yeah. Of course they do. They're doctors. They know that stuff. But they know that I can't pay too. They have to cut me off somewhere. They got me stable for the moment, so that's the cut off."

My mind was racing, and while some people might find fault in what I did next, Chester completely understood. In fact, it became really clear that what I did next was what he'd hoped I'd do for him. I began preparing him for what was likely the next thing he'd be dealing with. Passing over to the eternal realm.

continued.....




posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 05:35 PM
link   
Now, he knows about my research. Not that he's ever been even remotely interested in any of it, but when someone you're close to has become convinced that he/she has uncorked the truth about reality and humanity's place within it, it's no secret. Like anyone in my position, friends and family are aware of what's been driving me for the last half dozen years or so. Until now, it's never been anything he could relate to, but that night, as his truck flew off the road and alerted him to the fact that he's not immortal, his universe of relatable things grew just enough to include whatever the hell it's been that I've been working on in recent years.

As the one of the two of us who's learned most about corporeal life from our adventures together, I had no hesitation when given the green light to somehow bullet-point what I'd uncovered about the afterlife for him. In fact, it seemed completely natural to prep him for what was very likely heading toward him, even if neither of us went so far as to refer to "it" as being right there and listening to our conversation.

"So, I need to tell you some stuff that you need to know," I started. "You have to just listen, and I can't have you argue or debate me on any of this. You don't have to believe it or accept it, but I need you to listen to it and try to make sense of what I'm going to tell you. What has to happen, is that this information has to make it into your short term memory, and if it does, then you'll always have it to refer to. And that includes even if your brain isn't part of the system anymore. It'll still be there, but only if you listen and try to understand it. Do you understand that part of what I'm saying to you."

"I hear ya, man. That's why I called."

"I know. So, what I'm going to do is make a series of statements, and I just want you to photograph those statements, and not allow your mind to discard them as being nonsense. You don't have to believe any of them, but you have to allow them to be potentially plausible. Can you do that."

"Just tell me the stuff. I'm listening."

"Okay. The first thing you need to know is that what you're likely experiencing is very much like labor pains. Like when you were a fetus in your mom's belly, if you'd been aware of what was going on around you, and could remember all of it, you'd remember some seriously scary stuff as you were getting ready to be born. This is because - if what we suspect to be happening here, is happening - what you're preparing to do is go through your final birthing event. Moving out from your 2nd stage of physical gestation. Does this make sense to you?"

"Yeah, I hear you. Like a baby, sort of."

"Well, not really, since being a baby is how it is when you're just beginning a stage of development. You're getting ready - again, possibly - to finish this stage of development, so you're like the opposite of a baby. Your 1st stage of gestation was designed to develop the body and brain that you see as yourself. The 2nd stage of gestation has been that body and brain "generating" and developing the mind that you experience moment to moment existence with. Once that 2nd stage is completed, you're finally done, and can begin your full existence as a human being. In short, if anything unexpected happens, you didn't die. You were finally born. Do you understand what I'm saying here?"

"No, I get it, man. I do. I'm hip to that whole thing you've been saying about how people aren't really people until they get rid of the body. I never had a problem with that."

"Good. What I also need you to know is that there's no such thing as a spirit. And that doesn't mean that you'll stop existing once your body stops working. What that means is that the human spirit, or soul or whatever you want to call it, isn't what we've been told it is. And that's really important to know, because it's going to mean everything to your existence once you've left this realm for the next realm, where everyone ends up eventually.

"The truth is that the human being is made of information, but it's a unique form of information. Now, I'm not going to go any farther into that then to say that this information is aware, intelligent, and has complete freedom of movement and expression. And I'm also going to make sure you know that there's no possible way to hurt, oppress, confine, or destroy this information. In fact, information is completely invulnerable to everything, including other versions of information. But there is a catch, and I need you to be aware of this."

continued again...



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 05:38 PM
link   
"Human intellect - which is what you, as information, consist of - is limitlessly subjective, and there's freedom and restriction that exists in any measure within that very real fact of the nature of human intellect. What you can be convinced of, you will experience as reality. It's just that simple. Human intellect consists of perception, and only perception. It's wonderful in its capacity for creativity and expression, but its weakness is its complete inability to factually discern reality. Due to that, the human being is vulnerable to the manipulations of other human beings, and this is what I need to warn you about in the event that I never get to talk with you about this again."

Chester didn't reply, but I could tell that he was listening, so I continued.

"When that time comes, and you know you've made the transition, there will be someone who will start giving you the rundown about how things are over there. It may take a while, since who knows what sort of methods will be employed to any one of us to soften resistance to what will be the operating procedures we'll each be presented with once the prep job's been accomplished. It could be heaven, it could be hell, but it will definitely be whatever has been determined to be most effective, given our individual hopes and fears and visceral expectations. And it will be a fully immersed holistic experience, and it'll seem more real that anything can possibly be. The one thing to never forget is that regardless of how impressive it is, it's bullsh*t, and it's happening to serve a very specific end; to break you of any belief that the folks in charge on that side of human existence can be challenged in any manner whatsoever."

"I know. I know. I never bought into that sh*t. I..."

"Chetty, just listen. You don't need to convince me of anything. Just listen, because in the first wave of this process, you'll buckle and they'll have you hook line and sinker. There's no way around it, so just expect it. This information isn't to prevent that from happening. It's to ensure that you possess this knowledge for some point afterward, when you've had a chance to settle in, and get your land legs together. That's when this information will be usable for you. It's then when you can begin to think for yourself and challenge the parameters of what they've established as reality for the trillions of humans that exists within their elaborate construct."

I think he tried to reply with something, but I cut him off before he could get whatever it was out.

"Now, I'm not telling you that you have to rebel against whatever they have together over there, but I do need you to know that whatever you run into, it's not monolithic. In other words, there's no overarching societal infrastructure there. What exists as organized reality is based on shared perception and most of it is the result of whomever it is that picks up on the fact that you just transitioned from corporeal existence to purely informational existence. For some people, that intersection is fortunate, but for others, it can be absolutely tragic. It depends on who it is that does the intersecting, and what their specific agenda involves."

"Yeah, well screw that crap, man. I don't listen to nobody. No one's gonna tell me what's up."

"Chetty, you were raised Catholic. In your visceral self, that programming still exists. It's what you have been rebelling against since your first cigarette, and even though you've rejected it, it remains central to the person that you are. You can't rebel against something that you don't believe in, and this is what will be your weakness when you cross over. And it's not as if it's all that hard to pick up on that weakness, especially since so many here have that same exact weakness. In fact, there are torture chambers from one end of the informational realm to the other that are full of rebels, who know deep in their hearts that they deserve the hell they inhabit, even though they hate that those hells found them so easily and efficiently.

"Then again, what else could they have expected? They'd been taught from birth that this is what awaits them if they never change their ways. If their personal Satan hadn't picked them off as they wandered in, they would've been unconsciously directing their own steps toward that Dark Lord, so as to fulfill their certain destiny - as drilled into their being by everyone from their parents to their teachers to the media to everyone else they ever knew in their lives. Hell, even AC/DC did their part with that song "Highway To Hell". Culturally, the inevitable was rigidly defined for such a person. When the time came, all any one of countless predators had to do was lead him off and provide the jail. 99% of the fight was over before the body hit the embalming table."

"Okay, so what does this mean for me?"

more ahead....
edit on 10/23/2011 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 05:41 PM
link   
"I'm going to tell you the most dangerous information that any human being can ever know. And I'm telling you, because I care about you, but I'm also telling you because this bullsh*t has to stop. I'm also warning you that if you abuse this information, nothing will be able to save you from having the certainty taken away from you by those who've probably been there long enough to know how to deal with those who know this stuff and have decided to leverage it against the system as a whole.

"In other words, I'm not launching an insurgency here. I'm trying to give you what you need to fight back against the average predator. Like the one - or many - who'll be waiting for someone like you as you walk through the turnstiles.

"I'm ready."

"The most important thing you need to know is that you can only perceive what you've allowed yourself to perceive, or have been convinced to allow yourself to perceive. It's not that way in the corporeal realm, but in the informational realm, that's exactly the way it is. In the informational realm Perception really is Reality. If you know that this is true, then it can be liberating. However, if you don't know this, you can become trapped within whatever construct it is that's been presented to you.

"A lot of nonsecular teachers claim that in this realm reality is an illusion, and that the truth awaits us once we've died and passed on into the spirit realm, but this is a lie perpetuated by those who feel the need to control the eternal realms and it's been fed back to this world through those people with psychic abilities who are trying to gain insight into that world that awaits each of us. It's basic cultural programming, and it makes things a lot easier to manage for the folks on that side who've been able to grab control over their little slice of forever.

"People don't change. Not while they're alive and definitely not once they've died. Who and what they made of themselves throughout their lives is who and what they'll be forever, and we all know that there are a lot of people who have that need to take charge and establish order. And we all know that they exist within every group, club, religion, committee, and gathering of people, and ideology has nothing to do with what it is that drives these people to do what it takes to take over.

"You don't have to challenge whatever established order you happen to wander into, but be aware that whatever you accept as real is only as real as you decide it to be. Human intellect is 100% perception, and that's 100% subjective. And that means that you are 100% in charge of what the informational realm looks like, feels like, smells like and is like. And anything to the contrary of that is 100% bullsh*t."

He went on to ask a variety of questions that served to amplify and specify aspects of what I'd just detailed, to help him internalize the information, and when it all seemed as if he'd made sense of it, he told me he'd call the next day (today) with news of how his tests went. He never gave me any indication that he was afraid of what he obviously felt was bearing down on him, nor did he seem to harbor any regret over any choices he'd made that might've brought him to this point. As always, he wasn't the least troubled by what would probably send most people into a confessional (at the very least) or (more likely) into severe penance with an eye on cutting some purgatory time off, if outright damnation could still be averted somehow. Some people just don't think any distance down any road. Not even really short roads.

Besides, as the ultimate dissident that he is, Chester won't be copping a plea regardless of whether my view of reality ended up being instructive or not. My guess is that while he did call me to see what I had to say about all of this, what mattered most to him was that he got to say goodbye in the least maudlin manner possible, while making sure that I knew that I still rated getting that call from him, even after many years of removing myself from the grinding convolutions that sit at the base of any profitable con man's daily existence.

As to why I gave him what I gave him, I have my own reasons. Maybe I have my own dissident streak and enjoy the idea that someone like him might be running ragged all over eternity with no means possible to contain him. Maybe I believe that the fact that human intellect is inherently free of constraints is reason enough to prevent it from being constrained by the imaginative elaboration of those who've chosen to limit their capacity for unfettered expression. Maybe I feel that, while they are free to confine themselves, they are not free to confine anyone else. And maybe their need for confinement should be shared with others of the same mind, while the rest of humanity is spared the grief of being forced to exist under anyone's dictates.

Maybe I'm even more dissident than Chester, or anyone else for that matter.

ending next post...
edit on 10/23/2011 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 05:44 PM
link   
All I know is that when we hung up, I felt as if I'd given him the keys to paradise, and while he certainly never earned them, the truth is that none of us have ever earned them or have earned anything whatsoever regardless of how we've lived our lives.

I'm posting this so that anyone and everyone who reads it can have what I gave Chester, and so that it'll be available information within the whole of who each of them will ultimate become upon corporeal death, and fully capable of being employed to allow them to break free of whatever foolishness seeks to imprison them for whatever it is they've done, or not done, or for whatever reason is ever presented to them once the corporeal realm has been left behind and they've begun their forever as free and unencumbered human beings.

Life is tough enough without anyone making it worse for everyone else. If you find yourself in a bad way, once you've tossed the corpse into the hole, then you now know that all you have to do is click your little heels three times and tell that nightmare to go f*ck itself. And there's nothing it can do about it, no matter what the good book, or any other book says about it.



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 05:45 PM
link   
This is freakin intense. sad, but intense



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 06:02 PM
link   
I would recomend "Testimony of Light" by Helen Graves. Very interesting way to think about things on the otherside. Positive too! My love to you and your friend.
Heather



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 06:26 PM
link   
Excellent and interesting post, thank you for sharing it.

Though I feel this view lacks a reason or purpose for this corporeal life. It makes suicide seem like the best option. Why not just opt to end this 'life' and get on to our real one?



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 06:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by kalunom
Excellent and interesting post, thank you for sharing it.

Though I feel this view lacks a reason or purpose for this corporeal life. It makes suicide seem like the best option. Why not just opt to end this 'life' and get on to our real one?


For one thing, you don't want to start out with a limp on that side. Since the human being is perception (which includes emotions, expressions, interpretations and a host of intellectual affectations), what you allow to define you as an informational manifestation will either empower you or cripple you. Failure is failure, regardless of how you try to spin it. Suicide can't possibly be a positive development, unless entered into on behalf of a larger good that transcends the self of the perpetrator. Like all things, even suicide has its exceptions. After all, what the human mind is and does is pure subjectivity. Impossible to truly quantify.

The purpose of the corporeal life is the literal creation of the eternal human being. It's a full stage of human gestation, and if that's not a reason or a purpose, then I have no idea what you're looking for.
edit on 10/23/2011 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 06:58 PM
link   
reply to post by NorEaster
 


With all. Do respect it seems to me that your best friend is his worst enemy. He could easily bring his problem u deer control with the proper diet and meds. Your friend chooses to be on the edge looking down, the sad fact is that his selfishness could have had far more devastating consequences . His ignorance could very well have killed an innocent child or another by veering the other way into oncoming traffic.

You want to do your friend a favor tell him the truth and to either do the right thing and bring his condition under control or report him and have his license taken away before he murders an innocent bystander, yes you read that correctly MURDER, that is what it is when you purposely drive knowing it can happen because he is to proud to take care of himself.



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 07:11 PM
link   
Are you saying your friend is going to die because he has diabetes and no medical to treat it? He could get help for that. Look into welfare or for some program that can assist him.



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 07:12 PM
link   
reply to post by NorEaster
 


This is an amazing thread. The sadness of people waiting for a "resurrection" or submitting to a "judgement" reminds me of things I read from Ramtha when I was a kid. Your perspective on the afterlife being intellectual and not spiritual isn't exactly what I believe but the advice would be sound in either case.

Seriously man, this was an amazing read. Thanks.



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 07:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by Night Star
Are you saying your friend is going to die because he has diabetes and no medical to treat it? He could get help for that. Look into welfare or for some program that can assist him.


It doesn't work like that. This is America.



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 07:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by Night Star
Are you saying your friend is going to die because he has diabetes and no medical to treat it? He could get help for that. Look into welfare or for some program that can assist him.


It doesn't work like that. This is America.


And there are all kinds of programs and help available usually. He would at least have to look into it. Perhaps speak with a social worker as they have access to things we may not be aware of. I got help with medical when I didn't know that I could.



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 07:32 PM
link   
reply to post by Night Star
 


reply to post by Noey777
 


No offense, but this thread isn't about Chester's diabetes, or about whether he can get it treated or not. It's about the fact that he called me last night to prepare himself to die. If I was a doctor, or if I had millions of dollars, then maybe he'd be calling me about how I could help him stay alive, but as I made pretty clear in the account, what I had to offer him was insight into what he's got (possibly) closing in on him, and how to prepare for it.

We all die in the end. How each of us chooses to deal with that fact is just as important as how each of us deals with our struggle to remain alive.



posted on Oct, 23 2011 @ 07:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by NorEaster
 


This is an amazing thread. The sadness of people waiting for a "resurrection" or submitting to a "judgement" reminds me of things I read from Ramtha when I was a kid. Your perspective on the afterlife being intellectual and not spiritual isn't exactly what I believe but the advice would be sound in either case.

Seriously man, this was an amazing read. Thanks.


Thanks. If this account helps anyone else get a better handle on the process, then I'll be pretty grateful for the chance to make a difference. Screw the authoritarians. I see no reason for them to win on both sides of the divide.

Viva La Freedom!!!



posted on Oct, 24 2011 @ 01:35 AM
link   
reply to post by NorEaster
 
You know, I have been reading from this site for years now. I have never posted or commented on any post before. I want you to know that I found this to be very insightful, logical, and as plausible as any ideas or teachings I have ever heard. It happens to make a lot of sense. The things you have stated here just seem to fit. There are many out there who have been searching a long time for the so called " meaning " or " purpose " of life and this seems as good an answer as I have seen. These are things that I will definitely give some thought to and as you say , keep in the back of my mind somewhere for when it might come in handy. My best to you and your friend.



posted on Oct, 24 2011 @ 02:59 AM
link   
Awesome NorEaster - simply awesome.


Reminds me I have this book I'm half way through and this has inspired me to go finish it


Now, before I become that annoying girl in class with her hand constantly up asking questions I have a question to put to you.

Have you ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" (with Robin Williams) or read the book by by Richard Matheson? I guess my queries on this thread would stem from whether you've seen or read this book before.

Thanks again NE. Your writings are inspiring.




posted on Oct, 24 2011 @ 06:39 AM
link   

Originally posted by Netties Hermit
Awesome NorEaster - simply awesome.


Reminds me I have this book I'm half way through and this has inspired me to go finish it


Now, before I become that annoying girl in class with her hand constantly up asking questions I have a question to put to you.

Have you ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" (with Robin Williams) or read the book by by Richard Matheson? I guess my queries on this thread would stem from whether you've seen or read this book before.


I think I remember that movie, but I don't remember if I actually saw it or if I caught a piece of it while flipping through channels. Does Robin Williams hunt down his girlfriend, or wife, and find her in hell? If so, does he ever get her out of there? I honestly don't remember if he gets her out or not.

I wasn't into any of this when that movie came out, so i guess it never made much of an impression on me. I was into paranormal stuff, and have been a Tarot reader for most of my life, but the dicey issues involving the reality of what bridges this realm and the next was always something I considered unknowable. It wasn't until 2004 that I started getting flashes of inspiration to sit down and begin considering all of this. Who knows why then, but I do know that until then, I was pretty uninterested in the subject of Metaphysics.


Thanks again NE. Your writings are inspiring.



Thanks. I would be interested in what you think of that book.



posted on Oct, 24 2011 @ 06:45 AM
link   

Originally posted by yanks528
reply to post by NorEaster
 
You know, I have been reading from this site for years now. I have never posted or commented on any post before. I want you to know that I found this to be very insightful, logical, and as plausible as any ideas or teachings I have ever heard. It happens to make a lot of sense. The things you have stated here just seem to fit. There are many out there who have been searching a long time for the so called " meaning " or " purpose " of life and this seems as good an answer as I have seen. These are things that I will definitely give some thought to and as you say , keep in the back of my mind somewhere for when it might come in handy. My best to you and your friend.



My notions concerning why I see things the way I do have been very concretely developed and published in both paperback and e-book. If you're interested in learning why I believe that I have proven my assertions to be true, you can U2U me, and I'll be happy to make that information available.

No saleman will call. In fact, what I'm really looking for is responsible and capable debunkers. After all, if I'm wrong, then I need someone to find the fatal flaw in what I've uncovered. I'm probably much too associated with this premise to be capable of seeing the logical problems if any exist.





new topics

top topics



 
16
<<   2 >>

log in

join