Archaeologist Argues World's Oldest Temples Were Not Temples at All

There is no way that they carved pillars out of stone by the dozens in order to catch wild animals.

The amount of energy and artisans skill that would have been been needed to carve, carry and suspend these stones would have been beyond a hunter and gatherers needs when they could have simply dug a hole and covered it with sticks, leaves and mud.

Clearly these structures had a more complicated and day to day meaning to these people to cause such a desire to make something that would last thousands of years.

-GM

i think mrsblonde mentioned the key a while ago.

what happens every time europeans march into a new land. they divided it up amongst themselves.

i would say its the epigravettians making it official what tribe owned what. it might be necessary to renew this periodically hense all the circles. they were awesome artists in stone.

reply to post by Parta


The site may also have been a place sacred or important to them for some reason lost to us or a place they hunkered down for winter.

The thick plottens folks!
Someone has suggested that the two pillars at the passage entrance to the structure could only be closed from the outside. Excavation has shown that these two pillars are a solid "U" shape with the curve of the "U" buried underground so the two pillars are immovable.
It is obvious that 50 to 100 people must have been involved with the building yet there is no evidence of housing, hearths or fires near the site and the nearest source of water was a stream some three miles away.
The temple theory is perhaps blown out of the water as there is nothing symbolizing the heavens which was usually associated with religion then. Also, there is no access whatsoever to the central area as the inner circle has no entrances.
There are two circles each containing 10 pillars.
What appears to have happened is that as soon as a structure was completed it was meticulously filled in and another one built.
The resident 'arkie' on site, Klaus Schmidt, is quoted as saying "Discovering that Hunter-Gatherers had constructed Gobekli Tepe was like finding someone had built a 747 in a basement with an X-acto knife".
Although they appear to serve no purpose whatsoever they have a specific design and surely weren't just built for the hell of it.
There are about 20 more sites to be excavated which hopefully will shed more light on these fascinating structures.

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Parta

 

The site may also have been a place sacred or important to them for some reason lost to us or a place they hunkered down for winter.

anything is possible.

the "newcomers" were fleeing a catastrophe.
[from picasa]

their ydna was what you could call tribal.
[from picasa]

they were mother goddess worshippers. probably excellent musicians and dancers.

Originally posted by Parta

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Parta

 

The site may also have been a place sacred or important to them for some reason lost to us or a place they hunkered down for winter.

anything is possible.

the "newcomers" were fleeing a catastrophe.
[from picasa]

their ydna was what you could call tribal.
[from picasa]

they were mother goddess worshippers. probably excellent musicians and dancers.

How do you know they were 'newcomers'?

A link to tool assemblages and linkages.........it must be time for Parta to bring in his Atlantis in Europe theory.....could you not? Lets just keep this focused on Gobekli Tepe

reply to post by Hanslune


whats the matter hansy? am i a little too current with my orthodox science for you to keep up? do you need to get personal now? you are a classic case aren't you.

reading your posts... i can only compare you to the 1902 encyclopedias i found when my grandfather died. good for a chuckle at best.

my atlantis theory? well i do happen to agree with the national geographic institute of romania in their presentations on what they've found at the various international geologic conferences etc they've presentented at lately. its a european union country and they are serious. i agree with the new york times where scientists apologized for not having any clue what was in eastern europe, the most advanced place on earth didn't it say? i happen to agree with the university of belgrade when they say they've never seen any structure on earth like the cursus near alibunar.

i agree with what science says, thats a theory of mine.

another theory is that you really have no knowledge base for any opinion you might have.

Originally posted by Parta
reply to post by Hanslune

 

whats the matter hansy? am i a little too current with my orthodox science for you to keep up? do you need to get personal now? you are a classic case aren't you.

reading your posts... i can only compare you to the 1902 encyclopedias i found when my grandfather died. good for a chuckle at best.

my atlantis theory? well i do happen to agree with the national geographic institute of romania in their presentations on what they've found at the various international geologic conferences etc they've presentented at lately. its a european union country and they are serious. i agree with the new york times where scientists apologized for not having any clue what was in eastern europe, the most advanced place on earth didn't it say? i happen to agree with the university of belgrade when they say they've never seen any structure on earth like the cursus near alibunar.

i agree with what science says, thats a theory of mine.

another theory is that you really have no knowledge base for any opinion you might have.

Ah Parta I took you off ignore for such a short time and you immediately go into personal attacks....back to ignore

reply to post by Hanslune


you were gone for a long time. i won't be ignoring you. type away.

Originally posted by OzTiger

The temple theory is perhaps blown out of the water as there is nothing symbolizing the heavens which was usually associated with religion then.

What a silly point to make about an ancient structure. Because a culture didnt reference an unending blissful utopia after death in their artwork doesnt mean they didnt use the structure for ceremony.

It was something that HAD to last, Unlike everything else they built these were structures of solid stone, megaliths.

Something for generations to use - a place of gathering.

-GM

As Slayer posted this pic,

As a Contractor/Builder - To me, this looks like a support structure, a basement foundation for a taller addition to be placed ontop in later construction.

The area is completely littered with wild animal bones from human consumption, perhaps it could have been a place for feasting, A gathering point of the tribes.

Originally posted by Gradius Maximus

As Slayer posted this pic,

As a Contractor/Builder - To me, this looks like a support structure, a basement foundation for a taller addition to be placed ontop in later construction.

The area is completely littered with wild animal bones from human consumption, perhaps it could have been a place for feasting, A gathering point of the tribes.

edit on 11-10-2011 by Gradius Maximus because: (no reason given)

okay Gradius!! good post!! when i looked over what you posted it made me think of this!! Aerial view of the Colosseum


so Slayers theory about it being an animal trap might be partly correct? What if as you say it had an upper structure and it was used for wild animal fights? Hence the carvings ?come see alligators and leopards kill each other kinda thing?

Originally posted by Gradius Maximus

Originally posted by OzTiger

The temple theory is perhaps blown out of the water as there is nothing symbolizing the heavens which was usually associated with religion then.

What a silly point to make about an ancient structure. Because a culture didnt reference an unending blissful utopia after death in their artwork doesnt mean they didnt use the structure for ceremony.

It was something that HAD to last, Unlike everything else they built these were structures of solid stone, megaliths.

Something for generations to use - a place of gathering.

-GM

I see your point but the structures were apparently built then filled in and another one started. How could anyone worship or live there? The fact that the centre part of the structure cannot be accessed is a mystery. What can you do if you can't get in.
I am sure that as more excavation takes place we will be enlightened.
In the meantime we will all speculate.

okay I'm going to go out on a crazy limb here

what if they were building these as a demon trap?

here is a link to a display of Babalonian Demon Bowls and their function and purpose

the more I think about this the more it seems like they were trying to keep something in?

I dunno either but it's fun to think about:

The book of Enoch talks about certain Watchers who were buried in the Earth as punishment for corrupting and inbreeding with mankind the location seems to be generally accurate and the time frame about right?

what if like so many other ancient sites that have been referenced in ancient texts we stumbled on another one
?

And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7 not see light.

from thisEnoch Chpt 14

Originally posted by Parta
they were mother goddess worshippers. probably excellent musicians and dancers.

I agree, though I am not sure that they would have sounded all that great to ears refined by the subtle tones of modern music. But certainly according to their mythology, they invented the drum, tamborine and pipes. And the women, not the men, danced the Dervish.

I read recently that the pyramids can be seen as a stylised mountain with a cave. Made incredible sense, even if when the Egyptians were building it they had long since lost the connection, having lived for far too long on the plain. I personally think, given the resemblance of those drawings of GT in the OP to the 'temples' on Malta, that here too we have another womb-cavern, not temple, but sanctuary.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Parta
they were mother goddess worshippers. probably excellent musicians and dancers.

I agree, though I am not sure that they would have sounded all that great to ears refined by the subtle tones of modern music. But certainly according to their mythology, they invented the drum, tamborine and pipes. And the women, not the men, danced the Dervish.

I read recently that the pyramids can be seen as a stylised mountain with a cave. Made incredible sense, even if when the Egyptians were building it they had long since lost the connection, having lived for far too long on the plain. I personally think, given the resemblance of those drawings of GT in the OP to the 'temples' on Malta, that here too we have another womb-cavern, not temple, but sanctuary.

edit on 12-10-2011 by KilgoreTrout because: (no reason given)

what they could do with just one instrument has a physical effect on a human that we just don't get from modern music. for instance when you get 100 kaba gaidis together live playing
www.youtube.com...

you can actually feel your skin trying to get away.

as for the pyramids, if you believe the westcar papyrus then khufu went with a nubian holyman magician somewhere far away to see exactly how the giza complex should be constructed.

Originally posted by Parta
what they could do with just one instrument has a physical effect on a human that we just don't get from modern music. for instance when you get 100 kaba gaidis together live playing
www.youtube.com...

you can actually feel your skin trying to get away.

It didn't quite have that effect on me, but I get your point. And with a little suspension from the current reality, it is not difficult to imagine how magical such sounds would have been in a cavern, shadows created by the flames from the hearth, and the vapours from Syrian Rue seeds thrown upon the fire further enhancing the other-worldly experience. And the rhythms of the instruments, no doubt, accompanied the spoken words of the poet, or sooth-sayer....the story-teller...

Originally posted by Parta
as for the pyramids, if you believe the westcar papyrus then khufu went with a nubian holyman magician somewhere far away to see exactly how the giza complex should be constructed.

...which is why this papyrus is so very interesting, thank you so much for introducing it to me, it is a gold mine in so many ways.

In context though, isn't it fascinating that Imphopteb was an Architect and a Physician. Which came first in his mind do you think? Doctor or Engineer? Same principles, but one animate, the other inanimate, and perhaps lacking in soul? To us perhaps, but not to them. However, would a Doctor come Architect, not perhaps be inclined towards the designing of hospitals? Would a city suffering from plagues not wish for such a facility? Arthur C Clarke, summed it up perfectly, though it has taken me a few years to fully comprehend his meaning, and here we see how technology - magic, medicine and the Egyptians are so intricately entwined.

Again, thank you!

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout


It didn't quite have that effect on me, but I get your point. And with a little suspension from the current reality, it is not difficult to imagine how magical such sounds would have been in a cavern, shadows created by the flames from the hearth, and the vapours from Syrian Rue seeds thrown upon the fire further enhancing the other-worldly experience. And the rhythms of the instruments, no doubt, accompanied the spoken words of the poet, or sooth-sayer....the story-teller...

understandable. i would however recommend sitting towards the back of your first kaba gaidi concert. 100 stout bulgarians can generate alot of sound pressure.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
...which is why this papyrus is so very interesting, thank you so much for introducing it to me, it is a gold mine in so many ways.

yeah i recon you can actually find the spot they visited [the real underworld] if you follow all of the clues in it.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
In context though, isn't it fascinating that Imphopteb was an Architect and a Physician. Which came first in his mind do you think? Doctor or Engineer? Same principles, but one animate, the other inanimate, and perhaps lacking in soul? To us perhaps, but not to them. However, would a Doctor come Architect, not perhaps be inclined towards the designing of hospitals? Would a city suffering from plagues not wish for such a facility? Arthur C Clarke, summed it up perfectly, though it has taken me a few years to fully comprehend his meaning, and here we see how technology - magic, medicine and the Egyptians are so intricately entwined.

Again, thank you!

maybe he thought of himself as only a doctor... taking care of the living and the dead.

Originally posted by Parta
understandable. i would however recommend sitting towards the back of your first kaba gaidi concert. 100 stout bulgarians can generate alot of sound pressure.

I hadn't thought about it in terms of the combined force, physically. Interesting.

Originally posted by Parta
yeah i recon you can actually find the spot they visited [the real underworld] if you follow all of the clues in it.

Very few people are willing to wade through the amount of # required to go there though. I don't (yet?) read hieroglyths, so cannot comprehend any deeper, encoded, meaning. I did notice a glyph that looks like a stylised horn of consecration though. It only appears once, and I can get nothing of it's specific meaning from the literal translation or the transliteration of the papyrus. I don't know anywhere enough to know if there is a map to the underworld, but it does describe, in a story format, rituals, such as the Dynastic Birth, that Homer later further embellished upon in a similar way. This ritual was practiced by 'Sun Kings' right up until Marie Antoinette, however she was given the added humilation of having to adopt the new fangled way of giving birth on one's back, completely against nature. But that's what happens when you let men interfere in a process that they cannot possibly comprehend.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
maybe he thought of himself as only a doctor... taking care of the living and the dead.

I can understand the comparisons that have been drawn with Asklepius, and wonder if it is possible that he, Imhotep was a Priest trained in those arts and sent, on instruction by the Oracle, to aid with the eradication of the famine. It was usual, under such circumstances, for a ruler to promise to build a temple/house for that cult, and for the Priesthood to be given priviledges not normally given to 'aliens'. The 'need' of the community was often, on the advice of oracles, met by the invitation of a certain deity to the city. This same pattern can be seen throughout most of the Roman period.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

I hadn't thought about it in terms of the combined force, physically. Interesting.

the bulgarian national anthem is pretty good too. very catchy.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Very few people are willing to wade through the amount of # required to go there though. I don't (yet?) read hieroglyths, so cannot comprehend any deeper, encoded, meaning. I did notice a glyph that looks like a stylised horn of consecration though. It only appears once, and I can get nothing of it's specific meaning from the literal translation or the transliteration of the papyrus. I don't know anywhere enough to know if there is a map to the underworld, but it does describe, in a story format, rituals, such as the Dynastic Birth, that Homer later further embellished upon in a similar way. This ritual was practiced by 'Sun Kings' right up until Marie Antoinette, however she was given the added humilation of having to adopt the new fangled way of giving birth on one's back, completely against nature. But that's what happens when you let men interfere in a process that they cannot possibly comprehend.

i don't think there is alot of hieroglyphic depth required. just the story given, the giza complex and some basic orthodox science.

...the magician worshipped the old gods of egypt. predynastic naqada idols are the same as the later nubian el kadada group c culture so that is true
...that underworld should have old god figurines, black topped brown pottery, red pottery, incised pottery, proto-mastabas, head on a plinth tradition, etc etc
...at the time of khufu you could sail TO the underworld thanks to the magician
...the underworld should include a vast flooded plain with three conjoined mountains sticking out of it [2 big 1 small] and another a small distance to the north plus an enclosure where the sphinx is located. [there are alot of other details from other texts regarding exactly what you should physically find in the underworld]
...there should be a genetic relationship between the nubians and the underworld.

taking everything together and you have something fun to look at maybe? i know it would probably be a terrible thing to actually find the underworld. anticlimactic and disappointing

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

I can understand the comparisons that have been drawn with Asklepius, and wonder if it is possible that he, Imhotep was a Priest trained in those arts and sent, on instruction by the Oracle, to aid with the eradication of the famine. It was usual, under such circumstances, for a ruler to promise to build a temple/house for that cult, and for the Priesthood to be given priviledges not normally given to 'aliens'. The 'need' of the community was often, on the advice of oracles, met by the invitation of a certain deity to the city. This same pattern can be seen throughout most of the Roman period.

you can trace great waves of religion flowing across vast geographic areas over vast periods of time so what "alien" might have meant is debatable. there were obviously people who had a huge amount of very ancient knowledge and it would be great to see them appreciated for their efforts to pass it on to us.