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Thoughts On God And The Nature Of Consciousness

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posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 12:33 AM
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Deep thoughts, by Michael Suede

The big bang is a requirement of atheism and creationism. Both postulate a beginning time. Both state that at one point there was nothing, and then suddenly there was something.

The freaking word “creationism” means something from nothing. – a big bang.

Consider the philosophical implications of the nature of consciousness. In order to describe the nature of consciousness as a fundamental entity of the universe in its own right, one must have a steady state universe that does not necessarily have to have a beginning. If consciousness is a fundamental entity of the universe in its own right, then by default the claim is made that consciousness must have existed at the same moment matter came into existence.

Also consider that if consciousness is a fundamental entity of the universe, then there is no need to have a “god created” afterlife, since our consciousness would continue on in perpetuity without physical form. What that afterlife might be composed of would depend upon our own unique consciousness and the factors that compose it within the laws that govern conscious thought.

The only way to describe consciousness as something OTHER than a fundamental part of the universe is to postulate that the universe had some beginning; that at one point it was nothing, and then it suddenly became something.

Atheism, the belief that there is no god or eternal soul, is materialist in nature. If you fundamentally believe that consciousness arises strictly from matter, then you believe that matter must have existed before consciousness. Given that this is the case, then there must be a beginning point at which consciousness did not exist. Hence, a beginning to the universe – a big bang. Consciousness is required to mark time. If there is no consciousness in the universe, then “time” for all intents and purposes does not exist, nor does matter.

The only way to avoid a “beginning” point is to say that consciousness and matter have always existed forever. The only possible way to avoid a “big bang” type scenario in any case is to claim that consciousness and matter are fundamental parts of the universe and that the universe has existed forever.

So, if I wanted to describe consciousness as originating from the random chemical reactions of the brain, I would necessarily have to make that claim within a framework that allowed for consciousness not to exist before matter came into being. And because of this, I would have to believe that either consciousness is destroyed upon death or that it must be supernatural of divine inspiration. There is no other alternative.

Clearly the third obvious option is missing from those choices; that being, consciousness is simply a fundamental part of the universe that has existed forever and will exist forever; that our brains are simply receivers of an external conscious input.

Now, I want to poke a little deeper. One of my favorite questions that used to drive my mother insane is “Why?”

If we stipulate that there is no god and that consciousness is a fundamental part of the universe that has always existed and always will exist, then WHY does it exist? For what purpose and how did it come to be? Is it supernatural after all? I hate supernatural interpretations.

Ask yourself if consciousness could exist if consciousness was fundamentally evil. From our libertarian teachings, we know that evil is the destruction of resources. We know that evil is harm and destruction. Evil is necessarily a destructive force. So however conciseness was created, it must not have been an act of evil if it has always existed. The first act of creation for all times must necessarily be something that stems from good, for something can not be destroyed or harmed (an act of evil) before it has been created.

Good things come from people creating things for themselves or others. Good things come from people helping themselves or others. Now it may be that created goods are used for evil purposes, but the fundamental fact remains that good is fundamentally a creative force.

Is it logical to say that good must have existed before evil? And that if the universe and consciousness are infinite and eternal, then consciousness must stem from good? That only a good creative force could have created consciousness? That because love exists, we exist? That god (in other words, the first act of creation) is Love?

I don’t necessarily believe in a god, as a theist would describe god, but I do believe consciousness is a fundamental part of the universe and is a separate entity in its own right.

Here’s an article I wrote previously on this subject that provides some scientific information in regards to my logic.

Oh, and by the way… This view of the universe and consciousness is supported by the science of plasma cosmology.




posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I always find myself asking that same question, why? Why is any of this here at all? Why does this universe even exist? I seem to get lost in my train of thought, then I have to slowly recede back into reality. I just wish I knew.

Nice thread though! Just curious, is Deep Thoughts a book?



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 01:10 AM
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haven't read the whole thing, i will then comment again but i should point out that the big bang didnt explode everything from nothing, the universe existed, possibly always (my belief) then expanded. that's the BBT it has nothing to do with the creation of reality.

what makes you think matter had to be created? why couldn't it have always existed? its more reasonable to think matter always was because its here now.
edit on 6-10-2011 by vjr1113 because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-10-2011 by vjr1113 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 01:12 AM
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posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 01:21 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Very nice. What you wrote fits into a profound experience I had which I described here on ATS some months ago. The link is in my signature (titled "The Secrets of our Existence and Universe Unraveled). It includes an illustration I put together to try to demonstrate the visuals.

In case you don't have time to read through the entire post, basically my experience opened my eyes to the possibility of a great consciousness (one that has always existed and doesn't have a beginning or end), one which is responsible for the existence of everything, because it IS everything. Mathematics is the language or what some might call "the word of God" (if we go religious for a second), the building block of everything you see and feel around you. The consciousness hungers for knowledge as it plays out every possible scenario. We are it, it is us, it is everything, we are everything.

It's a very basic description of what I came to understand. My mind was blown by this concept and changed the way I look at and behave in the world. It's hard to come to grips with infinity.



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 01:31 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 



Definitely good food for thought. I have a few questions.
(And please understand, I am not being condescending, just curious and participating)


Is this non created, endless existence of matter and consciousness only in this universe?

How does it account for the massive amounts of galaxies speeding away, and why would they just start to do that in the recent billions of years? (I say recent because I'm referring to the universes supposed infinite age)



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 01:32 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 



thanks for the link to the thunderbolts of the Gods video.
It's absolutely fascinating and has really got me to question the standard model



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 01:39 AM
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Originally posted by MrGrimm
reply to post by mnemeth1
 



Definitely good food for thought. I have a few questions.
(And please understand, I am not being condescending, just curious and participating)


Is this non created, endless existence of matter and consciousness only in this universe?

How does it account for the massive amounts of galaxies speeding away, and why would they just start to do that in the recent billions of years? (I say recent because I'm referring to the universes supposed infinite age)


I know this was a question meant for the OP. I hope he doesn't mind me jumping in like this, it's just that I was very tempted to give my opinion. This Consciousness IS the Universe and all other existing Universes combined, assuming they exist (do they come into existence as soon as the thought enters our minds?).

In my humble and uneducated opinion (within this particular field) we only have best guess theories rather than sound, proven science in regard to what actually happened and how the Universe came to be. I am very supportive of scientists learning new facts about the Universe, but I am not convinced that they have any solid answers. They may be close or far away, or not even close,... but as I understand it, some believe that the Universe expands and contracts infinitely,.. sort of like inhaling and exhaling, therefore currently expanding, and maybe billions of years from now contracting.... which would account for stars and galaxies hurling forward through space and putting more distance between each other.
edit on 6-10-2011 by 2manyquestions because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 01:49 AM
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This post reminds me of a meditation I tried from an internal martial arts book, part of opening perceptions and gaining higher awareness. After the first two meditations (awareness of 8 directions, front, back, left, right, above, below, inside and all around and noticing the tangible, then the intangible, than both together) you break reality down into five sections. (The Essence of Internal Martial Arts, Volume 2, Sifu Jerry Alan Johnson)
1. Notice body is mind. Body originates from mind.
2. Notice mind is body. Mind originates from body.
3. Notice energy is mind. Mind originates from energy.
4. Notice energy is body. Body originates from energy.
5. Notice body, mind and energy as one. All play important parts in existence.

I notice spending several breaths on each step makes different sensations in the mind and body; maybe this is what creation feels like? Each level seems to let the practitioner experience the different levels of human belief. Body is mind for the psychologist and Buddhist types, mind is body for the atheist and hard science types, energy is mind, energy is body and body, mind and energy connection for the spiritual and holistic healer types.

Thinking about consciousness on a deeper, more logical level, including everything from god, or gods, to scientific evidence is a mind twister. Consciousness being only good or there would be no creation is too religious for me. It makes sense to a degree, considering doing good for self and others creates more of the same and alleviates stress and guilt, but on the other hand, some people feel good about harming others or being overly greedy. There are also the neutrals, sociopaths for instance. If they are here on this Earth than there must be a consciousness of that type. I take the yin/yang, cause and effect theory, at least when I use the scientific model. Like Einstein's principle 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction,' Good could not create good, or be aware of it, unless there was bad as well. "What came first; the chicken or the egg?" The answer is the beginning of the sentence, WHAT came first...

It's fun to ponder, but it is all abstraction anyway. Creation destruction, god, consciousness, morality. Abstraction and relativity. Good post.



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 02:23 AM
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Originally posted by IEtherianSoul9
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I always find myself asking that same question, why? Why is any of this here at all? Why does this universe even exist? I seem to get lost in my train of thought, then I have to slowly recede back into reality. I just wish I knew.

Nice thread though! Just curious, is Deep Thoughts a book?


As simple a question as this sounds, I think it takes some intelligent people many, many years to finally ask themselves this question. And some people never get there at all.



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 02:32 AM
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reply to post by 2manyquestions
 


Haha thanks man, I already knew that.

I just wanted to hear his point of view of how his hypothesis would work with what's already out there.
But thanks anyway 2mq, nothing wrong with hearing the same thing from time to time... nothing wrong at all



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 02:34 AM
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Exellent post S&F.

I also believe that consciousness is an entity in it's own right.
Leading toward's the quantum mechanical view of a hollistic existence.
Going to view that link.



posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


The big bang is always said to have happened millions of years ago at the beginning of time. What if it was happening every instant? On and off, the big bang is banging always right now. The particles or matter are just virtual particles appearing and disappearing but the space that contains it is always present.
It is like an oscillation, it appears to do it quickly in waking state but it has to do it for longer periods so that is why we have deep sleep.
What you are is the thing that is not a thing, it is space, the space in which all 'things' appear and disappear. The space that was, is and always will be present, even before the big bang.
You are that space by the way.
The I am.
All appearances appear within consciousness.

Consciousness is what all things appear in. When you are in deep sleep, you are not conscious, there is no consciousness. You are not even aware that you exist in deep sleep so there are no things what so ever. When you are dreaming and when you are awake there are 'things', there is existence and you know you are, there is consciousness. Consciousness is the appearance of apparent 'things', you seem not to exist unless 'things are experienced. So when 'things' are, there is consciousness. What is seen and the seer is one.
The accepted and 'normal' way we humans see it is we are born in the a world that exists before us and it will be here when after we depart. This has been learned , told to you, if there was no language or photographs it is not something that would be obvious. The worlds we visit when dreaming exist only for us.
In deep sleep you are complete and content. There are no 'things'. You are pure presence.
Out of that no thingness came every thing.


It is all a dream.
edit on 6-10-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2011 @ 03:51 AM
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I really appreciate this thread OP, If you look at the universe and the way it works, it's almost as if it we're made to harbor life. In a galaxy are suns, in a solar system there's planets, on planet's there's life. In life is consciousness, the sun is made for us to see and keep us warm, sound is made for us to hear, and so on i don't want to drag it out.

If there was no life in the universe.. then would it actually be a universe? The world you see is all created in your head as electrical signals, without a perceiver there is no world. Before this life we had a choice to live physically, but the law of moving to this world and living physically in your vessel requires to lose all memory of the divine heavens to enforce a species to evolve and obtain oneness and to learn and love. If there was a soul, it would have nothing to do with time. After we die, time goes away, the time was just a scene. In the after life the physical life you lived isn't before or after because time doesn't exist. So you have to think of the insane possibilities and factors that can change the outcome, I really think it's time for a different type of science, studying dreams, consciousness, dimensions, all contributing to the answer of the soul and the after life, that is something we should be funding.

S&F



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