The vedic civilization and evolution of society in India

reply to post by halfoldman


I am not crtiticizing Vaishnav people per se. It is just that the correct interpretation of Veda is very important. If we accept the incorrect view of one sect, then we have to accept incorrect view of others as well. The end result is complete chaos, which is Hinduism. A Hindu is the most confused (religion-wise) person, as he has a multiplicity of views and gods to contend with, none of which he understands well.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by vedatruth
The Vedic Society - The Basic Principles

a. The 'varnn' or class system is made for smooth functioning of the society. It promotes people with virtue and intellect, and gives them the position to lead.
b. All people are advised to work hard - every class of persons. It is called 'athak parishram' - untiring effort - towards betterment of self - first spiritually then materially - in a way that keeps dharm first, nation second, and self last.
c. Veda is against wasting time. Sleeping in daytime is prohibited (unless sick). The time should be spent either in work, or in gaining knowledge, or in imparting knowledge etc. Making up stories, and telling such stories is prohibited. That would make today's TV and movie world unsuitable for Vedic people.
d. Cheating, stealing, lying, hurting innocent (including animals) is prohibited.
e. Non-veg food (masanhar) is prohibited.
f. Disrespect of women, domestic violence, prostitution is prohibited.
g. Agreeing to heresy (speech against Veda) is prohibited.
h. A human is asked to be happy with what he got. A human should trust God and His kindness.
i. The top three varnn of educated people (Brahmin, Kshatriya, and Vaishya - called 'sabhya samaj' in Hindi) are given the responsibility of ensuring a good King, and good governance. It is NOT left just to the King's fancy to do what he pleases.

Letter G: is it agreeing to speech against Veda's, or is it speech against Veda. I guess what I am getting at, is it allowed to debate the merits of Veda?

Arya people are not supposed to agree to a preach against Veda.
A preacher always tries to influence un-educated people - to gain fame or material benefit.
The educated Arya people are expected to expel such a person from village/town/city etc., so that he does not get success in spreading false beliefs.

But Veda does not prescribe a punishment for holding a belief. (A punishment like putting in jail, fines, or a physical punishment). The only recourse is to stop that person from preaching.

Originally posted by vedatruth
reply to post by halfoldman

 

I am not crtiticizing Vaishnav people per se. It is just that the correct interpretation of Veda is very important. If we accept the incorrect view of one sect, then we have to accept incorrect view of others as well. The end result is complete chaos, which is Hinduism. A Hindu is the most confused (religion-wise) person, as he has a multiplicity of views and gods to contend with, none of which he understands well.

and that my friend, is the whole problem.

Ancient "oral" teachings, and ancient texts, are ALL in ancient languages.

Those ancient languages are interpreted on an "as needed" basis by anyone who does the interpretations.

Even the New Testament was "written" (finally, after centuries) in a Greek language that is subject to "interpretaion".

Many scholars believe that original "Hebrew" was actually meant to be a universal trade language, not for religious purposes at first !!!!
(perhaps thats why Hebrew has a knack for numbers?)

The ancient trade routes were "manned" and controlled by businessmen, not religion.

Many ancient languages are based on ancient Akkadian.

Originally posted by vedatruth
The Vedic Society - The Basic Principles

a. The 'varnn' or class system is made for smooth functioning of the society. It promotes people with virtue and intellect, and gives them the position to lead.
b. All people are advised to work hard - every class of persons. It is called 'athak parishram' - untiring effort - towards betterment of self - first spiritually then materially - in a way that keeps dharm first, nation second, and self last.
c. Veda is against wasting time. Sleeping in daytime is prohibited (unless sick). The time should be spent either in work, or in gaining knowledge, or in imparting knowledge etc. Making up stories, and telling such stories is prohibited. That would make today's TV and movie world unsuitable for Vedic people.
d. Cheating, stealing, lying, hurting innocent (including animals) is prohibited.
e. Non-veg food (masanhar) is prohibited.
f. Disrespect of women, domestic violence, prostitution is prohibited.
g. Agreeing to heresy (speech against Veda) is prohibited.
h. A human is asked to be happy with what he got. A human should trust God and His kindness.
i. The top three varnn of educated people (Brahmin, Kshatriya, and Vaishya - called 'sabhya samaj' in Hindi) are given the responsibility of ensuring a good King, and good governance. It is NOT left just to the King's fancy to do what he pleases.

I wonder,

how does this compare to the ancient Babylonian Codes?

as in ... Code_of_Hammurabi

There was heavy trade between Babylonia, Assyria, and Egypt with ancient India.

So exchange of ideas is quite natural.

I would not be surprised to find Vedic ideas in code of Hammurabi, though I cannot read Akkadian, and so cannot figure it out.

Originally posted by xuenchen

and that my friend, is the whole problem.

Ancient "oral" teachings, and ancient texts, are ALL in ancient languages.

Those ancient languages are interpreted on an "as needed" basis by anyone who does the interpretations.

Even the New Testament was "written" (finally, after centuries) in a Greek language that is subject to "interpretaion".

Many scholars believe that original "Hebrew" was actually meant to be a universal trade language, not for religious purposes at first !!!!
(perhaps thats why Hebrew has a knack for numbers?)

The ancient trade routes were "manned" and controlled by businessmen, not religion.

Many ancient languages are based on ancient Akkadian.

Ancient Bharat had a very elaborate education system. The knowledge of Veda was commonplace.

There was no scope of mis-interpretation of Veda in the time of Krsna, as a lot of experts were available in every kingdom of Bharat.

The Veda was written (transferred to writing) for the first time by Vyaas Muni, the same person who wrote Mahabharat.

The original copy of Veda is rumoured to be in possession of the British, though I have no way of confirming it.

The written form of Veda is called 'Sanhita', while oral form is called 'Shruti'.

Only the oral form is a 'mantra', as sound is very important in a mantra. So Veda can only be transferred from one person to the other in oral form.

Non-Arya People (‘anarya’ in Sanskrit)

Readers of Ramayan are familiar with the kingdom of Lanka and its ruler Ravann.

It is such a popular story, that it does not require a rehash. I shall only cover aspects of it that are not known to the public.

Everybody knows Ravann was king of ‘Rakshas’ people. The question is – who were Rakshas?

The Rakshas people were nothing but ‘outcastes’ of Arya kingdoms.

The most common punishment for non-violent crimes was ‘desh nikala’ or expulsion from country.

These outcastes migrated to south of Bharat (after crossing Vindhya mountains) and set up colonies over there.
The mountains of south india and central india in the Ramayan time were much taller than they are now, so were difficult to cross.

Ravana was a leader of these outcastes, who set up his capital in Lanka, to protect it from Arya kings.

‘Anarya’ were people who did not follow Vedic practices at a time when Vedic culture was the dominant culture on earth.

Rakshas people looked the same as Arya, and talked in Sanskrit just as Arya. They were genetically same as Arya.

The wierd stories about 10 heads of Ravann and huge body of Meghnad are false. They were just humans as a normal human would be.

Ravann was a great warrior, who subjugated other non-Arya kingdoms (in America, and other continents) and got rich and powerful. He got 'pushpak viman' in one such conquest.

Pushpak viman is described as a 'spaceship' in Ramayana.

Ravann had other vimans in addition to Pushpak. The Rakshas were capable of building Vimans.

Rakshas also built other weapons much advanced for their time, which included cannons, submarines, and rockets.

Ravann got so confident of his military that he wished to defeat the Arya nation - and so we see the act of initiating war by kidnapping the wife of crown prince of Aryavrata.

The kidnapping was an 'act of war', and not an amorous proposal due to 'beauty of Sita'.

The war happened not due to Sita, as some versions of Ramayan make out, but due to Ravann's desire to defeat Arya nation.

The Vanars of Ramayan

Who were the Vanars who helped Rama win the war.

Vanars were not monkeys, or cross of human and monkey. They were just human.

Vanar was a race of warriors, people of exceptional physical strength.

Kishkindha was a kingdom of people who called themselves 'Vanar'. It is hard to know why they called themselves so, but we know that they lived in a place surrounded by forests ('van' in Sanskrit) and mountains.

Rama was smart enough to resolve a dispute between two princes of Kishkindha, and thus form an alliance with the Vanar people.

Textreply to post by vedatruth


I red it somewhere but I don't kow will try to find the link and update here. In Ancient Sanskrit Language "Hinduism" refers to Life style. How one has to live? it doesn't refer to Religion and caste system at all.

Indian mythology and Viman

I have been brought up on indian mythology, stories of long gone times that often involve 'deva' coming from skies in Viman.

While many such stories are obviously false, and created by vested interests, there is good reason to believe that there indeed was contact between Bharat and ET civilizations.

One good reason to believe so is 'brahmastra', a weapon described in Mahabharat, which seems to be of ET origin.

As is the custom with ambassadors of foreign civilizations, ETs brought gifts for the kings, that included magical weapons.

Mahabharat war is said to be so destructive, was due to presence of many such weapons with the kings, weapons which were akin to current 'weapons of mass destruction'.

Vaimanic Shashtra and reconstructing lost books

The topic of Viman brings us to the ancient Sanskrit book "Vaimanic Shashtra".

This book is claimed to be written by Pt. Subbaraya Shastry during the years 1918-1923 (as per wikipedia).

Pt. Shashtry claimed that the book was delivered to him by sage Bhardwaj.

I consider this to be a case of a Yogic method of discovering lost knowledge. Of course a sage who is long dead cannot physically deliver the book to Pt. Shashtry, but Pt. can get the knowledge in a state of 'dhyaan'. The same method was used by Swami Dayanand Saraswati in writing the book "Sanskar Vidhi", which is an accurate description of rituals practiced in the time of Krsna.

"Vaimanic Shashtra" is a very important book, because it is a very rare example of a book from 'Rakshas" civilization. Hardly anything is known about these people now. We only have some idea from Ramayan. These people who were great engineers and builders are lost in the dust of history.

Rakshas people built many types of Vimans and used them for war, and transport, just like modern humans. They also built skyscrapers like modern man. This was 18 million years ago.

Lanka was a beautiful city, built on top of a mountain, protected by high walls and a moat, high watch towers with cannons in them. The city was full of high rise buildings, perhaps necessary due to small amount of space on that mountain.

The Mercury engine and TR-3B

The Mercury engine is described in Vaimanic Shashtra. In the true tradition of Rakshas scholars, the book covers topics in a cryptic way - so that it is virtually impossible to follow the text until a Rakshas enginner is available to guide the student.

And so we get a connection to TR-3B, the speculative triangle shaped craft of USAF, which works on mercury plasma engines.

If the craft is real, and I believe so, USAF should say thanks to genius of Rakshas engineers who built such an engine for the first time on earth 18 million years ago.

Rakshas, Temples, and Culture

Rakshas can be considered pagans from today's standards. They built temples for their human gods and offered animal sacrifice to them.

Oral tradition indicates that there is continuity of Rakshas people from Ramayan time till today. Just as descendants of Bhagwan Ram are still present today.

Rakshas people had a different view of morality compared to Vedic people. Theirs was a meterialistic society, where money, women, and fame were very important to men. The King was all powerful, and priests were subservient to the king. Warfare was an important component of king's duties, as it was seen as essential to increasing wealth. Science and technology were essential tools to the power of the king. The focus of the society was on development of sciences essential to warfare.

But Lanka was similar to a communist society - except the temples. The welfare of the people - like education, medical services, distribution of grain etc. was done by the State. The industry was State owned, as compared to private industry in Vedic culture.

There was no poverty in Lanka. People were healthy, and food etc. was plentiful. The living standard was quite high.

Good and Evil

Veda says that evil people exist, and Arya should shun them.

Evil people exist because God gave freedom of action to man. The freedom of action cuts both ways - a lover of God can get closer to God by doing pious deeds. A lover of wealth and sensory gratification can gain physical objects by his efforts as well.

It is the desire of the man - he wants God, or just material wealth.

God says you will prosper if you come to me. A God loving person is always happy and contented, because he knows God will take care of him.

A godless society may gain temporary riches, but stays without contentment. There is un-natural competition to accumulate riches, which ultimately destroys the society, by inequality and injustice.

Dharm and Society

Some people think that religion is a personal affair. That society/country has nothing to do with it.

Well that is not the case with Veda. Veda clearly stipulates the structure of the society and laws for that society. A person is asked to follow dharm no matter what the circumstances. But it recognizes that a person needs the right environment for dharm to flourish. It places heavy burden on the educated section of the society to select a good king, and to set up administration that ensures, peace, prosperity and justice.

Every person is asked to contribute towards the society and the nation. The Dwij (educated class) are given an elite status, but asked to work hard and contribute in return. There is NO position of advantage. You cannot sit idle and enjoy the fruits of labour of others. There is no elitism in Veda. In fact the structure of society in Veda is against the development of a feudal system.

All officers of the State are 'salaried' in Vedic system. There is no commission system as in a feudal society. The King and his advisors decide the wages of everybody. The tax collected goes directly to the King's treasury.

The system of 'mandlik raja' and 'chakravarti raja' is based on authority rather than taxation. All kingdoms were independent from financial angle. Though I find it a bit strange, I could not figure out a system of sending a fraction of taxes to Chakravarti Raja. So the glue of kingdoms was not a centralized structure, but a desire and will to stick together as one nation and one culture.

How to get rid of Caste System

Veda never says to create a caste system. However caste system exists in India, and is proving very difficult to get rid of despite effort by so many people. So it is imperative to examine the origin of it, and how Veda's knowledge can be applied to remove this ill from society.

There was a 'class' system in the time of Krsna, which I have explained. It is true that over time, the genetics trumps the idealist thinking of Rishi. Gene flow means some families become prominent, while others remain at the low end of the society.

So son of Kshatriya becomes a Kshatriya. Son of Brahmin becomes a Brahmin, and so on. Some of it due to genes, some of it due to wealth, and some of it due to association.

The poor won't despise the rich, and the powerless the powerful until the King is benevolent, and everybody is well fed. The problems start when the elite fail in their duty, and inequality is replaced by injustice.

Vedic system is run by virtue, and virtue cannot be created by law. The vedic culture held till the time people were virtuous, and their main objective in life was to get close to God. When the elite became corrupted, the system started to fail, as the worker class started falling into poverty, and the elite garnered all the resources of the State.

Over time, the vedic system gave way to a feudal system, with all of its associated ills - mass poverty, injustice, prostitution, chaos, etc.

The origin of caste system is in this social chaos, when elite no longer performed their duty as per Veda, and were only interested in garnering wealth and power.

I believe Bharat was impacted severely by large migrations from outside. The immigrants had no culture of study of Veda. Their only objective was to get land and money. They came from lands which already had feudal systems, and a culture of offering tribute (offering women and precious objects to the elite). They also had no culture of education of women. These people impacted the socio-cultural landscape of Bharat quite significantly by corrupting the elites, starting from the areas which were gateway of such migrations.

The nation resisted but gave way over time. Slowly vedic culture was eroded, generation after generation. It took 2500 years after Mahabharat war to make a significant dent in Vedic culture, but it did gave way.

The Veda says that a man can be transformed only slowly. A robber does not become a saint overnight. Virtue is built as a house is built brick by brick. First step is desire. If enough people desire vedic culture to come back, it will. Second thing is to follow four basic practices - agnihotra, yagna, teerth yatra, and daan in a proper vedic way. This will clear the accumulated garbage of so many years. This will make people suitable for receiving Vedic knowledge, so that they can proceed to the next stage of a true prosperous, contented and virtuous society.

The caste system has become truly meaningless, as we are left with only two kinds of people - either 'shudra' or 'anarya'. We do not have dwij anymore as that requires a vedic education. So we should start from the point that we focus on 'shudra', people who have awareness of vedic culture, and are:

a. Either vegetarians or ready to become vegetarians
b. Ready to get rid of idols and temples
c. Have an open mind and are ready to learn.

I pray, God gives wisdom to all humanity to get on the path to real knowledge.

Veda and Viman

Veda advises man to build Viman that can fly for months without having to land to refuel.

Why God asks man to do so - because travel is an important part of duties of Dwij - to gain knowledge from, and to impart knowledge to people in lands far away.

If God created man on just one planet, our earth, there is no logic to God advising to build a Viman.

If such a Viman is to be built, it is clear that it cannot be built by carrying a massive amount of fuel. A parallel is human body. A child is not born with all the fuel (food) that the body needs over a lifetime. The body takes the fuel (as food) from the environment.

Similarly a Viman has to use energy already existing in the cosmos if it has to fly for a very long time. This energy is two types - first type is the energy left over from the creation of Universe, energy that pervades the space, and second is the energy that flows from centers of energy (like center of a galaxy).

The energy that is present in space is 'magnetic' energy. We do not call it 'electric' as electricty needs matter to flow. We do not call it heat either as even heat needs matter particles. Space has no matter ('shunya' in Sanskrit). It is not even light as it exists in the darkess of space.

Veda and Technology

Is God against science and technology?

No. How can that be. God has given man minerals and biological wealth to use for building devices ('yantra' in Sanskrit) that can be used to make human life better. Earth is called 'ratngarbha' because it is full of useful minerals, precious stones etc.

However God has not given these resources to kill, or spread injustice. God snatches away the bounties of nature from the nation that misuses natural resources. God has many tools at His disposal to ensure justice.

Man should always live within God's laws - to value other man's life as his own, and to respect Nature. Any destruction of innocent lives and natural resources is a sure cause of downfall of a nation.