Fury at DNA pioneer's theory: Africans are less intelligent than Westerners.

This is an interesting but controversial article I found this morning.

One of the world's most eminent scientists was embroiled in an extraordinary row last night after he claimed that black people were less intelligent than white people and the idea that "equal powers of reason" were shared across racial groups was a delusion. James Watson, a Nobel Prize winner for his part in the unravelling of DNA who now runs one of America's leading scientific research institutions, drew widespread condemnation for comments he made ahead of his arrival in Britain today for a speaking tour at venues including the Science Museum in London.

Full Article Here: www.independent.co.uk...
Obviously the politically correct brigade have come out in force to shout the man down and call for his head on a pike. But although I feel uncomfortable with the subject, I am willing to hear the guy out. There has to be a reason why africa can't get itself together in any kind of civilized manner. Even simple things like agriculture and irrigation techniques seem beyond them, and the age old argument that they never recovered from western european colonialism and its all the white mans fault is wearing a little thin now.

reply to post by Atzil321


if it was the opposite way around, it would be alright.

Anyway, I say let the man speak. I wonder why some people refuse to listen to him? doesn't make sense. I guess some people open their ears and eyes to things only they want to hear and see.

btw, I'm not saying what he is saying is true though.

His quote...

"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically.

...seems to be true at face value.

EVERY part of the human body has variation according to the genetic profile of the people in that population.
Whether you look at skin color, nose shapes, eye shape, hair, lips, ears, and other body proportions.
Not just externally, but all interior organs as well. All vary according to the varying genetic makeup of the population groups.

The idea that the brain is somehow miraculously devoid of ANY variation around the world, despite it being the place where more genes are expressed than any other is simply wishful thinking.

If you're wondering why some people aren't listening is easy, there are smart people of all colours and creeds. Just because I'm brown does not mean I am naive or stupid.
Believe me, I've met more rednecks around here then I have actual people with common sense.

The west has leaders for one, Africa has dictators. Dictators tear a nation down anytime, especially when there is no nation. You can't tear something down that isn't there.

reply to post by Heartisblack


Leaders and dictators? haha, you fell for it didn't you? I would even class our leaders as dictators too, they do nothing good for our country..well our current ones anyway

Originally posted by David291
reply to post by Heartisblack

 

Leaders and dictators? haha, you fell for it didn't you? I would even class our leaders as dictators too, they do nothing good for our country..well our current ones anyway

Hell no, I didn't fall for it. I might as well be living in a third world country. The third world country has freedom, we don't.

I guess we could say they are truly free and we are not. Oh good lord, I've been here too long.

Originally posted by Heartisblack
If you're wondering why some people aren't listening is easy, there are smart people of all colours and creeds. Just because I'm brown does not mean I am naive or stupid.

It would be helpful if you attacked his ACTUAL argument instead of a strawman.
He's not saying "there are no smart black people".
He's saying that there is natural variation, and the average is not the same. This is not a new argument of his, and he's been saying it for a few years now.


Edit - the news article posted by the OP is from 2007.
Edit 2 - the politically correct brigade did indeed come out in force and demand his head on a pike - they had him sacked as chancellor of the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on New York's Long Island and from its board of directors. Only politically correct opinions will be tolerated.

reply to post by Atzil321


Oh lord, here we go.

Intelligence has nothing to do with skin color. People all have potential, although it's the type environment (this includes a myriad of things) you live in which ultimately molds you.

The Western world is the dominant force in the world today. Since Europeans had to adapt to a colder climate, maybe that is one possible reason.


Africa did have Ancient Egypt, Axum, the kingdom of Ethiopia and Kush in Sudan. However the interior of Africa was seldom traveled to. Look at the position of Egypt in relation to all the other African countries. There could have been an influx of ideas that flowed into Ancient Egypt which resulted in it being one of the greatest known ancient civilizations on this planet. Unlike other continents, the entrance into Africa, if you were to go across the Levant, can only be entered by that small piece of land connected to Jordan and Israel.

Originally posted by IEtherianSoul9
reply to post by Atzil321

 

Oh lord, here we go.

Intelligence has nothing to do with skin color. People all have potential, although it's the type environment (this includes a myriad of things) you live in which ultimately molds you.

The Western world is the dominant force in the world today. Since Europeans had to adapt to a colder climate, maybe that is one possible reason.

edit on 9/16/2011 by IEtherianSoul9 because: (no reason given)

Amen, environment can do a lot of things to people. Like for instance serial killers. I can count on one hand on how many black serial killers there are. The white ones are unlimited.

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by Heartisblack
If you're wondering why some people aren't listening is easy, there are smart people of all colours and creeds. Just because I'm brown does not mean I am naive or stupid.

It would be helpful if you attacked his ACTUAL argument instead of a strawman.
He's not saying "there are no smart black people".
He's saying that there is natural variation, and the average is not the same. This is not a new argument of his, and he's been saying it for a few years now.


Edit - the news article posted by the OP is from 2007.
Edit 2 - the politically correct brigade did indeed come out in force and demand his head on a pike - they had him sacked as chancellor of the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on New York's Long Island and from its board of directors. Only politically correct opinions will be tolerated.

edit on 16-9-2011 by alfa1 because: (no reason given)

That is what I got from the article, he made it sound like everybody was dumber then a bag of rocks. I called a friend on it, he even said is he trying to make them sound dumb as a bloody bag of rocks ?
I understand it's from 2007, I did go to the link. If you weren't so busy trying to treat some of us like children you'd understand this.

If you take some of these people out of their environment, bypass the hip-hop culture and teach them something. You can mold them from a lump of clay and into a sculpture.
Culture is everything.

And I understand about the genetic thesis of baseline DNA, the brain is not exempt. Everybody is different.

Is it considered racist to say black people are better athletes?

Im assuming what hes saying is based on some sort of scientific evidence so maybe all the do gooders should actually hear the poor bloke out and not just jump on the headline and be ready to lynch the poor bugger

I find it amazing when people say black people are much better athleats than white people every one agrees, when they say black people are stronger than white people every one agrees, but when they say somthing thets negative, and may even have some truth, then nobody wants to know, .. but if he had said white people are dumb then the scientific world would have applauded his findings given him a nobel prize in science,

Originally posted by Lucifersjester
I find it amazing when people say black people are much better athleats than white people every one agrees,

Yeah, seriously I really dont know why its controvertial to say that due to genetic variation, some populations of people are better/worse at some tasks than other populations of people.
Running, swimming, boxing, weightlifting, etc.. all ok... but when its any task involving the brain, politically correct people go hysterically ape# and deny the mere possibility.

look at rap music and look at rock music...

:p

but seriously...like someone above said...if this scientist were saying taht, genetically speaking, the average black person was more intelligent than the average white person...there wouldn't be anyone saying anything. there would be no public outcry. but, he suggests that the average white person is smarter than the average black person...and it's total outrage...racism...strike it from the record.

i mean...on average...black people have larger lungs, larger muscles and larger hearts...which accounts for their physical prowess which is why most professional sports...the majority of players, especially star players...are black these days.

so black people can be stronger and faster...but white people can't be smarter?

and to you heartisblack...this isn't saying that all white people are smarter than all black people. trust me...i know for a fact that isn't so. it's simply saying that the average white person is probably a bit more intelligent than the average black person. i read a report years ago that was on a study that showed ON AVERAGE...intelligent people tend to be a bit more nocturnal than most humans. i get up by sunrise almost every day (365 days a year...with no alarm clock) and can't stay awake after 11pm most nights...so i am far from "more nocturnal" than most...but i didn't think that the report was calling me dumb because i adhere to a different time table.

take the study/report for what it is: a study/report! it's not being called fact. it's not being labeled as a scientific law. it's just one scientist's take. thinking that he's calling you dumb...well...could prove him correct. so don' take it personally. he didn't say you were dumb. you could very well be one of the (or even THE) most intelligent person on this board and be black. i could have the largest penis on this board and be white.

so let's leave stereotyping out of this and think with an open mind. forget your skin color. too many people get caught up on skin color. but then again...racism, to an extent, is inherent and will never end.

Back in college, about 16 years ago, in one of my teaching classes we discussed a study that was repressed regarding race and intelligence. It basically stated that typically IQ and cranium size went hand in hand. Which if you believe we use only 10% of our brains, as is commonly stated, then it would stand to reason that if you actually had a larger brain, percentage wise you would utilize more of it. I mean 10% of 150 is more than 10% of 100. Hell look at the size of Einstein's noodle.

This being the case, as far as average cranium sizes went, the following are the results from greatest head size/capacity to the lowest:

-Asians
-Causcasians
-Hispanics
-Africans

I ofcourse realize that this is a very broad stroke, and there are brilliant and dumb people amongst all races.

Just adding my bit to the discussion.

reply to post by kingkool


that was a very racist post.

just sayin.

Cranium size indicates intelligence? I don't think so or the elephants would be sending you for coffee this morning. I believe it's not size but surface area which makes more sense. There humans have the most except for whales and dolphins.

reply to post by kingkool


yeah, I seem to remember this study. it also detailed hormonal differences and birth differences. black males have on average something like 20% more testosterone then white males, and black females have levels on par with white males.

black children can hold their own head within hours or days, white and asian children can take weeks to do the same thing. also black children are birthed faster and the mother's who-ha is a located different then whites/asians.
the same conclusions were found amongst many african species that had euro cousins, bees, badgers, scorpians, etc...

reply to post by wingsfan


i believe you are correct on the testosterone percentage. it's funny...there are actually soooo many differences between the races...and yet...it is INCONCEIVABLE that, perhaps, there are differences in intelligence levels.