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Problems with the new Jobs Bill... already

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posted on Sep, 11 2011 @ 12:18 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Wow, so is Obama trying to create a permanent govt college program like the public school system, where he and his socialist buddies can have complete control over the curriculum and not have that darned private sector interfering in their indoctrination program?


Maybe I'm a bit ahead of that curve, but it's what came to mind...
edit on 10-9-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

Government has the public school system.
They have the loan program for colleges.
They WANT control over healthcare.
They WANT to buy up forclosed homes and be our landlords.
They impose FDA restrictions over everything we eat and/or drink.
The WANT to be the nations TOP employer (aren't they already?)

This jobs bill is just another step closer to government take-over. When we stop relying on government for our futures, our livelyhoods, THEN we can start growing again, as a nation.




posted on Sep, 11 2011 @ 12:30 AM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Yeh I would agree. Every step they take there's another one planned in front of it.



posted on Sep, 11 2011 @ 01:19 AM
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They can pass magic unicorns out to little girls and throw money from the capitol building roof - it still wouldn't help this bunch get re-elected.

It's not like anyone better is coming along to take over but this current bunch of thieves and crooks have been completely useless to the country. Of course, if you're a foreign banker or multi national corporation they've probably done semi - fine. Sadly, they aren't able to steal as much as other politicians can so the PTB will be sure to bring in another Bush Jr type.

It's the US Federal "Rope A Dope" plan....
edit on 11-9-2011 by ecoparity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2011 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by dbarnhart

I wish I could star that post twenty times.

What society (we) seem to have lost sight of is that all of us are businessmen and businesswomen. Even if you make a living digging a ditch, you are selling a service. You spend your time, energy, and talents in order to get money. The guy running a convenience store is spending his time, energy, talent, and resources to get money. There is really no difference except the amount of risk and number of customers.

But we seem to have adopted this idea that because we deal with one 'customer' (our employer) we are somehow entitled to specific treatment. We are entitled to health insurance, accident insurance, restrictions on how little we can work for, etc. I'm here to tell everyone that running a business means you give up all that. In return for giving up all those governmental benefits, you provide jobs for others to get them.

Now why on earth would anyone turn down minimum wage guarantees, worker's compensation insurance, paid health insurance, and social security benefits in order to risk losing it all and provide those self-same benefits nto others? Two reasons: freedom and reward.

But when the government restricts freedom to operate your business as you see fit and begins taking away your rewards, what reason is left? None. Considering this, is it any wonder why we don't have jobs?

In the history of the world, only one group has left positive lasting change on society. Governments don't; they rise and fall, and usually in the end become oppressive. Big business doesn't; they have their rewards and are more concerned with keeping them than doing anything new, The average Joe doesn't; he is trying to make enough to keep body and soul together and maybe raise a family.

Only the dreamers, the risk-takers, the small business entrepreneurs make a lasting mark. They create new technology: the laser, the telephone, the television, the internal combustion engine, and the list goes on and on and on. They hire people to accomplish these lofty goals, and stimulate other businesses in the process. It's a self-driven system that when allowed to run wide open will progress society in ways most of us cannot even envision.

It was allowed to run free once, and as a result we experienced the Industrial Revolution.

Small business is the accelerator; government is the brake. Pressing harder on the brake does not make the car move faster.

TheRedneck



posted on Sep, 11 2011 @ 08:00 PM
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reply to post by lernmore
 


Lol, you do know that OBama is trying to push us into soocialism right? Those thoughts you had about Germany in the 30's under Hitler? Wanna know what Nazi stands for? Nationalist Socialist Party. Think about that, national socialism.

The reason why Obama keeps feeding money to bankers? He's trying to kill capitalism, so that his puppetmasters pulling his strings can publicly assert their shadow government into control, named the Zionist Regime. Ever wonder how it is we keep shunting billions of dollars to Israel when they haven't done a bloody thing for us except kill americans in terrorists attacks that their terrorists get lauded as heroes for? Look up the Levon incident and all things related.

So many people are afraid of Rick Perry because his so called"theocracy government", but the truth is we are already under the shadow of Theocracy, the powers that be just havent decided to make that fact public yet. Trust me its better for Christians to have control of the U.S. than some genocidal Zionist Regime that think anyone that is not 100% pure jew are nothing more than animals. At least Christ taught that he came to save ALL mankind, not just his own people. Leave it to these Zionists and the only people they save will be their own while the rest of humanity ends up in hell.



posted on Sep, 12 2011 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by lernmore
 


Lol, you do know that OBama is trying to push us into soocialism right? Those thoughts you had about Germany in the 30's under Hitler? Wanna know what Nazi stands for? Nationalist Socialist Party. Think about that, national socialism.

The reason why Obama keeps feeding money to bankers? He's trying to kill capitalism, so that his puppetmasters pulling his strings can publicly assert their shadow government into control, named the Zionist Regime. Ever wonder how it is we keep shunting billions of dollars to Israel when they haven't done a bloody thing for us except kill americans in terrorists attacks that their terrorists get lauded as heroes for? Look up the Levon incident and all things related.

So many people are afraid of Rick Perry because his so called"theocracy government", but the truth is we are already under the shadow of Theocracy, the powers that be just havent decided to make that fact public yet. Trust me its better for Christians to have control of the U.S. than some genocidal Zionist Regime that think anyone that is not 100% pure jew are nothing more than animals. At least Christ taught that he came to save ALL mankind, not just his own people. Leave it to these Zionists and the only people they save will be their own while the rest of humanity ends up in hell.


Zionist socialism? Is that sort of like right leftism or black white-ism? Did you hit your head? If you think Obama is anywhere in the same galaxy as socialist, then you have zero idea what that word means.



posted on Sep, 12 2011 @ 08:57 AM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


You are right, our government is not longer run by the people and for the people, but by special interest for special interest, the stimulus this time is the same stimulus we got in the beginning of Obama presidency, did you see anything "good" that came from that?, no, no a darn thing because what the so call stimulus is doing is keeping the states that are most needed been able to keep working, the stimulus is a Hoax the biggest hoax ever this nation have seen.

Even the EU markets have not confidence on this round of stimulus in the US.

Sadly most people are so used to the hands outs for the government that they question nothing.

Again, the new stimulus is nothing but another hoax is not going to fix anything just like the last one didn't.

You can not fix an economy with hopes and bandaids on the back of tax payers, that is what stimulus are, is not plan to permanently fix the economy nothing at all.



posted on Sep, 12 2011 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by samcrow
 


Did you hit your head or something? What part of "Big Government" Do you not understand? Do you not understand that Big Government is the gateway to socialism? Obama talking about creating colleges like public schools, and now we have the Obama deathcare system rammed down our throats so that any of the elderly that have one foot in the grave are going to be shoved the rest of the way in.

What part of Obama care did you not understand? It is designed to kill off the babyboomers and any of the last remaining generation before them.

You should spend more time not being an Obama puppet supporter and pay attention to what he is doing. Actions speak louder than words bro, look at his actions. I'm not a republican either, personally i don't trust anything that wears a suit and smiles at you through a crocodile grin, all polititans are liars because right wing+left wing= same damn bird.

Obama is more concerned with his re-election efforts than to bother with the american citizens being murdered on our southern borders by the mexican drug cartels and he allows the mexican army to hold staging grounds on our soil. Were being occupied by a foriegn army and he allows it to happen under the disguise of "co-operation".

Obama has gone and printed yet MORE money we the tax payers cannot afford, that One World Order everyone is so afraid of? He's the one shoving us in faster, it's going to happen and these sneaky bills passed at midnight behind locked doors in secrecy and telling congress "you will pass this" sounds a hell of alot like a socialist dictator to me. Do you not pay attention to the Super Congress 12? Do you even watch current world events? Do you live under a rock?
edit on 12-9-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000 Did you hit your head or something? What part of "Big Government" Do you not understand? Do you not understand that Big Government is the gateway to socialism?


Hilarious. Your entire argument that 'big government' = socialism can be wholly destroyed with one word: fascism.

Here's the thing with you guys....you find some buzzword, in this case 'socialism,' that you don't really understand and then use it as a blanket insult for everything. I guess maybe it's fun to say 'socialism,' and maybe it's even fun for you guys to call everybody 'socialist,' but that doesn't make it reality. Obama as a socialist is quite amusing, considering his governance is antithetical to pretty much everything pure socialism is founded upon. You should find a political science professor and tell them that you're pretty sure Obama is a socialist. I'm sure he or she would enjoy the laugh. Of course, you'll retort that anybody in academia is a dirty commie/pinko/socialist/liberal/lefty and thus have an invalid worldview. So predictable.


Originally posted by lonewolf19792000What part of Obama care did you not understand? It is designed to kill off the babyboomers and any of the last remaining generation before them.


Do you have proof of this? My guess is no and you're just parroting something you heard on talk radio and couldn't be arsed to do any kind of critical evaluation of it before filing it away as fact. And, even if it was true, this would be somewhere in the same sphere as eugenics, a favorite tool of fascists, which are generally at the complete opposite end of the political spectrum as your dreaded socialists. There have been examples all across the political spectrum of eugenics movements, including the left, but using this as a diagnostic function is incredibly naive.


Originally posted by lonewolf19792000You should spend more time not being an Obama puppet supporter and pay attention to what he is doing. Actions speak louder than words bro, look at his actions. I'm not a republican either, personally i don't trust anything that wears a suit and smiles at you through a crocodile grin, all polititans are liars because right wing+left wing= same damn bird.


Obama puppet supporter? Hilarious, bro. If you'll read through what few posts I have here, bro, you'll see I've been fairly critical of him and his administration, bro. I guess 'puppet supporter' makes for a quaint insult, bro, but again, saying something is so doesn't make it so. Bro.



Originally posted by lonewolf19792000 Obama has gone and printed yet MORE money we the tax payers cannot afford, that One World Order everyone is so afraid of? He's the one shoving us in faster, it's going to happen and these sneaky bills passed at midnight behind locked doors in secrecy and telling congress "you will pass this" sounds a hell of alot like a socialist dictator to me. Do you not pay attention to the Super Congress 12? Do you even watch current world events? Do you live under a rock?
edit on 12-9-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)


Obama doesn't print money, the Fed does. So that doesn't really past the smell test. As far as it 'sounding like a socialist dictator'.....here we go again with that word you don't understand. Facsist leaders never 'compel' legislation? Monarchs? It isn't unique to one political system, nor is it diagnostic of such. I think maybe you should spend a little less time mad-libbing not-so-creative-insults and take a little bit of your own advice and figure out which end is up.
edit on 13-9-2011 by samcrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by lernmore
 


Lol, you do know that OBama is trying to push us into soocialism right? Those thoughts you had about Germany in the 30's under Hitler? Wanna know what Nazi stands for? Nationalist Socialist Party. Think about that, national socialism.

Actually they were called Nationalsozialistische Detusche Arbeiterpartei. And 100 km further south, mussolini ran the Partito Nazionale Fascista
The National Fascist party! Think about that! National Fascist Party.
And before the Anschluss, between those 2 there was fascist Austria.
Who ran the show there? The Christlich Soziale Partei.
Think about that! Christian! And Socialist!
For the sake of completeness, Francos club in spain was called Spanish Phalanx of the Assemblies of the National Syndicalist Offensive.
Do you know how china is really called? Peoples Republic of China! Think about that, China is a peoples republic!
edit on 13-9-2011 by narwahl because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 07:58 PM
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Another serious problem is of tenure. While I understand the purpose of tenure, it has become a way to force schools to often retain teachers who are actually detrimental to the education process.
reply to post by TheRedneck
 

Let me address the issue you brought up, namely that of tenure.
You are certainly correct that tenure today is a problem, but it even goes deeper than that.
Forget H1N1 or any other virus of the day, Entitlement has gripped the entire nation, from tenured teachers, to students, to retail clerks, to machinists, and to just about every other station in life.
Entitlement allows teachers, as well as all other workers, to collect salaries without putting in a stellar performance every day that they work. Students feel entitled to get "A"'s just for showing up in class(believe me, I actually had students that told me that, when they got C's or D's. Professor, I showed up in class every day, and turned in my assignments.) It didn't matter to them that their assignments were only fit for lining garbage cans, or that, instead of paying attention to the lecture, they were texting their friends, or browsing the internet. Forget the fact that they failed their tests, and never came to the numerous office hours I held EVERY DAY, or the fact that I wrote on their assignments and tests, to come to my office, and let's discuss the assignments or tests.
Those that know me, realize that I haven't posted recently, but I've decided to try posting again, at least until the trolls make it impossible for an honest dialogue. You know I've posted quite a bit about the problems with unions, tenure, and stale lesson plans(the same old plans that lazy teachers use for 20 years, even when they don't produce results). I won't repeat them here, but they are still on ATS,

However, as for entitlement, that is another matter. Those that believe that they are entitled to have the government provide jobs for them, are falling into a trap. First, as I hope most of you understand, the government is the worst provider of just about any service you can think of. That is a given.
Here is what the government should do, to bring back jobs: NOTHING. By that, I mean, rescind those programs and bills that have hurt American workers and killed domestic jobs. We can all name them, NAFTA, of course, leads the list.
The only think government should do is provide the environment, and good old American ingenuity, which I know is still in most people, even if it has been pushed to the background. take over.
The playing field for American workers is far from level, and the government needs to change that.
In addition, and I know this is where I will get blow-back, we need to cut spending on programs that don't work, and stop these adventures into countries for which there is no REAL benefit for American citizens.

Here's a simple solution to the unemployment problem. Let senators and congressional reps start with a very basic salary, and pay them based upon employment numbers. If gridlock ensues on issues, then they don't get paid, PERIOD.
Look at the "Super Committee", unconstitutional as it may have been. Those 12 were given months to come up with a mere 1.2 trillion in savings, out of a debt of over 15 trillion. They did not produce. How many real workers in this country get paid, if they fail to perform their designated jobs. Think about it.
Sure, we can "fire: them with the vote, but for Senators that means waiting up to 6 years- 6 years of doing nothing, and when they do produce something, it involves stealing more money from the taxpayers with no benefit to those same taxpayers. Even Congressional reps have 2 years of pay to perform NOTHING.
Anyway, the old Prof here tends to get verbose, so I apologize for that.
I think I've said enough for now.
Peace.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 08:35 PM
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Another union stimulus program to get more union votes.

Construction unions and teachers unions.

Very little of the small business money will really help small business in the long run.

The timing is just about right for getting these votes for the next election



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 09:12 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Well, now, there's a welcome old face. Nice to see you posting again, Prof! ATS needs good posters like yourself.

I can't not agree with your proposal on tying Congressional salaries to the state of the economy. I have wished for the same thing many times. But there are problems...

One is simply getting it into place. Section 6 of Article I of the US Constitution states:

The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States.

The law must be passed by those very individuals who it will directly affect. Not an easy hurdle to clear, when it is painfully clear to anyone who has ever walked by a business office that it will be a hindrance to their own personal wealth or their leisure. In addition, Amendment 27 of the same US Constitution says:

No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

So even if we could somehow get the Congress to agree, it could still not take effect until the next election cycle. I find it ironic that the self-same amendment that was put into place to prevent self-imposed undeserved pay raises also makes it difficult to achieve pay cuts.

But let us assume that we somehow manage to convince Congress to pass the necessary laws and we survive until the next election cycle (12-21-2012 is coming, people!
). Now the question becomes one of mathematics and economics. Which measure of the economy do we use to set the wages? If we choose poorly, it will be no different than the useless tests implemented in the school system, which have some teachers teaching just enough for their students to pass the test, but not enough for them to understand the material they need to learn.

We could use the inflation rate... but in some cases, a certain amount of inflation is a good thing for the economy; it indicates growth.

We could use the GDP, but an economy can show a great GDP even when teetering on the brink of recession. GDP is more of an indicator of recent history then the future, and would therefore be analogous to the use of skewed numbers by CEOs to obtain bonuses while running the companies into the ground.

We could use unemployment figures, but unemployment figures can easily be skewed by the very methods used to obtain them. As an example, the present government uses figures from unemployment compensation to determine unemployment figures. Those numbers do not reflect the people who have exhausted their unemployment insurance, nor do they include those who were fired for reasons out of their control, but still cannot draw unemployment. They do not count small businessmen who have lost their business to the economic conditions. In short, they are skewed to make unemployment figures seem far less than they truly are.

Perhaps we could use import/export figures. These to me appear most trustworthy, but I have no doubt there are ways to skew these figures as well.

In short, we would need a team of criminal law experts working with an armada of accountants to concoct a method to truly make the compensation of Congress accurate. And I don't know many accountants or cops I trust that far.

But, hey, it's a nice dream... one I will join you in.


TheRedneck

edit on 12/5/2011 by TheRedneck because: all Constitutional excerpts are from www.usconstitution.net...



posted on Dec, 6 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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Which measure of the economy do we use to set the wages?
reply to post by TheRedneck
 


Yes, my good friend. I had thought of that, when I posted. I guess I should have included that, but now is a good time to bring it up. It goes without saying that the statistics used have to somehow be independent of the people we are measuring. That means that the government must not be directly involved in those statistics that are used to determine pay. One way to do this involves reporting by business to an independent organization of business peers, not reporting to the government. That commission, if we could call it that, has to be funded by businesses in some way. Of course, that brings up the entire issue of corruption. That is, without a doubt, the rub. At some point, however, the entire issue of corruption has to be addressed. Greater minds than you or I have failed in this effort, but it doesn't mean we should not try. At this point, I freely admit that I don't have a definitive solution to that problem. However, I still feel an effort should be made to somehow institute a "pay for results" Congress, much as business has done in the last 30 years or so, by setting goals that must be met by its employees.
I think we all can agree that current system is broken, perhaps beyond simple repairs.
There is no doubt that virtually no one in Congress "gets it", namely that we are indeed heading quickly down a road from which there may be no return, as far as the economic viability of this form of government and society.
Greed is the ultimate ingredient of this dilemma, as well as a complete disregard for those who desperately want to climb out of a deep hole, but cannot because the hole is too deep and too steep,



posted on Dec, 7 2011 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus

There is but one sure method of preventing corruption. One way to assure open and honest dealings. One method to ensure fairness, justice and equality.

Eternal vigilance

Nothing else will suffice.

As a society, we have all become apathetic towards the corruption that now exists in such preponderance in Washington DC. As a result, that corruption has grown and flourished, to the point that it has now created a legal shield around itself to keep out those who would fight the corruption.

I fear we may be the generation to witness the failure of the "Great Experiment". The real shame is it will not have failed due to a failure of the ideals that founded it, but due to the refusal of those responsible for it (we the people) to care for it.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 7 2011 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 





There is but one sure method of preventing corruption. One way to assure open and honest dealings. One method to ensure fairness, justice and equality. Eternal vigilance


True. the problem, however, is that vigilance is hard to execute, when meetings take place behind closed doors, votes take place on bills that are 2,700 pages long, not published in advance, and hidden in those 2,700 pages are single sentences that take American rights away.

As Nancy Pelosi said, first we have to pass the bill, in order for you to see what is in it.
Neither you nor I nor any average citizen have the time, the know-how, nor the money to go through every bill, monitor every meeting with lobbyists, or monitor every phone call they make, to do their dirty dealing. In most cases, we only find out about the dirty deeds that they have performed, after the bills are passed, and signed by the President.

How would you propose "eternal vigilance", under the circumstances I mentioned. I truly hope you have a methodology, because, for the life of me, I cannot come up with a fool-proof one, to beat these crooks.



posted on Dec, 7 2011 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus

The first part is easy... require every Congressman who proposes a bill to read the entire bill, every sentence of it, in front of a quorum, before a vote can be taken on it. Enact legislation to require that full press coverage and admission to the public be available in every committee conference, with the sole exception being National Security discussions (and require those to be announced publicly to be such, along with a public explanation in generic terms of what is being debated).

Also, require that every bill be published at least three times within the space of one month in newspapers, with sufficient coverage to ensure that 75% of the public in each state receive said newspaper. (That in itself would stop those 2700 page bills.)

But in the end, even if we do make a more idiot-proof government, the world will simply make better idiots. The price stays the same: eternal vigilance by the people to read those bills, try to understand the bills, ask questions of their congressmen, and vote out the ones who do a poor job. Until that happens, there can never be an idiot-proof government.

Hence, my pessimism.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 7 2011 @ 08:22 PM
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the world will simply make better idiots. The price stays the same: eternal vigilance by the people to read those bills, try to understand the bills, ask questions of their congressmen, and vote out the ones who do a poor job. Until that happens, there can never be an idiot-proof government.
Hence, my pessimism.
reply to post by TheRedneck
 

True, my friend. It is hard not to be pessimistic, when a very large percentage of the populace know very little about the people they are voting for. In fact, let me correct that. Many voters don't WANT to know the views of those they vote for, regarding important issues. To those people, they tend to vote for people because of their looks, whether they can give a good speech(or read well from a teleprompter), or appear on Oprah or MTV. In addition, even those that show interest in an issue, blindly accept what the MSM tells them about the views and positions of a candidate, rather than investigating and following up with probative questions.



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