The Ecliptic plane , 2012 and the dawn of a new age thread

Alias Jones your two original postings were very well written and extremely interesting to read. I've never really looked into astrology except in a cursory way and it is obvious many people have spent considerable time & energy putting everything together as best they could. The part I found most interesting was the tie in to the Mayan calendar and the real significance of the often seen magical date of December 21, 2012. Thank you for all the effort you put into this.

Ok I posted it on other Mayan things but here the Precision alignment thingy happened in 1997 apparently. Also the age of the Aquaris or whatever is Greek and has nothing to do with the Maya. Look at my lovely link be good all www.geocities.com...

There's a bit of confusion apparently on this subject, including by Dr. Shepherd Simpson, Astrology Historian and author of the page linked to by dirty_g. The use of zodiacal terms does not automatically indicate astrology. The zodiac constellations are just that, observable constellations with a set position in the night sky, allowing them to be used to measure time over long periods. It's astronomy and it's possible that the astrological concepts that have become associated with celestial objects are corruptions and misunderstandings of a technical language of astronomical observation that was allegorical or metaphoric in nature.

There's a lot of good information on Dr. Simpson's site and it's an interesting place to explore. The thing is his orientation is that of an astrologer, and it's hard for me to put much stock in modern day astrologers who are trying to correct ancient systems that they likely are misconstruing or don't fully understand. Dr. Simpson's dates seem to be based on odd misunderstandings on his part. He's correct when he points out that the zodiac constellations aren't uniform in size, of course they aren't, and that there are actually thirteen constellations in the zodiac band rather than the traditional twelve. That's true. The ring of the zodiac used to measure the position of the sun's rising at the equinox is an intellectual tool, divided into twelve equal sections, each of which is named for the dominant constellation occupying it. Each zodiacal age is a set period of time, just as a minute, or a day or a year is. It's no wonder that Dr. Simpson's dates are far off from most researchers of this area because he's contending that an Age of Aries, for example, would be far shorter than an Age of Virgo, but in this case size doesn't matter.

Good to see this thread resurrected. While I agree that astrology in the broad sense is not a primary function of the Mayan Zodiac, it is the vernacular ease and personal identification with which people ( ancient and modern ) seem to gravitate towards. I do believe that the ancients assigned astrological symbolism to what they saw in the stars , more or less as indicators only. The stories and incarnations that these symbols , in time , came to represent , is a function of the creative mind, and in my opinion, nothing more.

That being said, I see in the Mayan timeline an advanced mathematical and astronomical people. While perfect interrpretaion still evades us, if you look at what the Maya where saying in their calendar and not necessarily exactly how they said it , the message becomes clear. The way of the universe is one of cycles. The solar system is the manifest of the greater whole of the universe , as related to the sun / Earth bond. The Galaxy is inmotion, and in it our solar system and within it our Earth. The cycle is set to renew itself as the great cycle at the crossing of the galactic plane of the ecliptic. This is the 2012 of the Maya. Now filter this timeline through the gregorian calendar and someconfusion, inevitably arises.

The truth of the matter is that indeed or solar system is in the process of " crossing " the galactic ecliptic plane. To this there is no doubt. At what precise time on our watches will we be exactly at the crossing - well you guessed it 12/21/2012.


Regardless of whether or not fictionalized and personalized dogma has found its way into the scince through the eons of thought my man, the end result remains the same.

A 400 year cycle of the Maya ends on that day. Its called a Baktun. Not the actual end of the Earth.

However you look at it the zodiac signs have nothing to do with the Maya. Why people relate them is beyond me.

The link I provided did show from old charts that the precision happened in 1997 (coincidentally the year I found out about the 2012 date) . What more do you want? More links? The more I look into it the more I seem to find people have just been trying to make a quick buck from books etc. Also the more I seem to find spiritualists refuse to yield to the actual real experts telling them its a bit of a con really. Falling for Psuedo Sciences instead. Thoug its much more exciting that way isnt it!!

Originally posted by Alias Jones
I see in the Mayan timeline an advanced mathematical and astronomical people. While perfect interrpretaion still evades us, if you look at what the Maya where saying in their calendar and not necessarily exactly how they said it , the message becomes clear. The way of the universe is one of cycles. The solar system is the manifest of the greater whole of the universe , as related to the sun / Earth bond. The Galaxy is inmotion, and in it our solar system and within it our Earth. The cycle is set to renew itself as the great cycle at the crossing of the galactic plane of the ecliptic. This is the 2012 of the Maya. Now filter this timeline through the gregorian calendar and someconfusion, inevitably arises.

The truth of the matter is that indeed or solar system is in the process of " crossing " the galactic ecliptic plane. To this there is no doubt. At what precise time on our watches will we be exactly at the crossing - well you guessed it 12/21/2012.


Regardless of whether or not fictionalized and personalized dogma has found its way into the scince through the eons of thought my man, the end result remains the same.

You have voted Alias Jones for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

It is worth noting that the ancient Greeks mention the same event, and refer to it as the end of the Suntalia Aion, and the Hindu Kali Yuga is to also end now. The numerous, very ancient, very far apart coinciding conclusions is significant. How did they all arrive at the same date? Many cite this as the 4th age as well, and most describe the event as a ' do over'. Start anew, after the slate has been wiped clean. See ya on the other side.

Originally posted by dirty_g

The link I provided did show from old charts that the precision happened in 1997 (coincidentally the year I found out about the 2012 date) . What more do you want? More links?

Yes, more sources to prove the credibility of your claim would be ideal. The link you provided was someones thoughts and opinions on astrology hosted by Geocities...this hardly constitutes a credible source.

Originally posted by dirty_g
However you look at it the zodiac signs have nothing to do with the Maya. Why people relate them is beyond me.

The simple fact is that we only have a small percentage of information regarding what the Mayans did and didn't know. Seeing how they were such exceptional astronomers I can't imagine why they wouldn't have knowledge of or developed a system similar to the zodiac band for measuring the position of the sun on the equinox. Remember, the zodiac is a feature of astronomy, a fundamentally important one for ancient systems based on observation with the naked eye. Just because it's featured in astronomy does not mean that's its only application.

There are many who feel that the Paris Codex features an approximate equivalent to the Old World Zodiac. It illustrates animal figures positioned along a band that seems to represent the ecliptic (the sun's apparent path). As one would imagine the system is different in some features, intriguingly, thirteen constellations.

The Paris Codex: A Maya Zodiac?

originally posted by dirty_g
The link I provided did show from old charts that the precision happened in 1997.

Based on Dr. Simpson's calculations of the zodiacal ages as far shorter or far longer than they actually are. Dr. Simpson is an astrologer who believes the actual constellations have an effect upon people, places and events. Unless this is part of your 1997 argument you may want to rethink him as a source.

originally posted by dirty_gThe more I look into it the more I seem to find people have just been trying to make a quick buck from books etc.

That's what people always say on these boards about the proponents of theories that don't suit them for some reason, as if the researchers, writers and documentary makers who present the material that supports their point of view are donating all their proceeds to charity.

originally posted by dirty_g
Also the more I seem to find spiritualists refuse to yield to the actual real experts telling them its a bit of a con really. Falling for Psuedo Sciences instead.

Pseudo scientists like astrological historians?

An event that took place around 3114 BC?

A woman in the late 1800's wrote a very strange story about an event that destroyed a planet in our solar system, consumed a bright constellation in the heavens, both of which involved an alignment of an immense star named Gu-ardor. Parts of it read:

"When Gu-ardor moves into line and the comet reaches the Moon, a convulsive thrill will undulate from the Great Centre to the infinite regions of outer space."

"The Shadow still moved forward till it reached the crystal dome; at that instant Gu-ardor touched the line, the pointer on the Dial trembled to the Hour of Doom, one Light of the Burning Seven went out in gloom, and a throb from the Great Centre quivered through the limitless expanse of the all-embracing Soul."

"The Wan Planet felt the shock; weakened in its centre by the labor of the Devas, it reeled, shivered for an instant, then the incoherent mass burst asunder, and the fragments, flying wildly, were scattered in space."

"Then from that region of the skies where once the Devas held their ancient reign - O doleful fate! - the predestined stars shot wildly from their spheres, and following each his dethroned lord, sank from sight, quenched and blackened in the dreary void."


The story goes onto say that the Great Deluge came upon the earth shortly after these heavenly events.


If the timing of this so called immense star is related to the beginning and end of the Mayan Long Count Calendar, and it possibly produces a "convulsive thrill that will undulate from the Great Centre to the infinite regions of outer space", it would definitely displace a great deal of heavenly bodies not bound to their parents. What comes to mind are the multitude of asteroids and comets floating about in our solar system. Can you imagine a slight tug from one end of the solar system that attracts all these bodies toward the source.The Earth would be in harms way if the attraction intersected the Earth's path.

i could just be ignorant, but if and when the "alignment" does happen.....does that mean that the suns' arc will be shifted from east/west to north/south?

If we do indeed shift into aquarius, then what environmental effects could be expected?

I say could, because as we know, the moons' tidal forces are enough to make a big splash in the pond...can you imagine what could happen?

Even if--by far reaching possiblity, the world does encounter a "doomsday"--whether that be nuclear or astrological, i have to believe that it is as stated, that it is not truly an end, but another cycle in a never-ending journey. There are so many things out there that can't be explained, and while the first couple posts were a novel (good job), it is evident to me that one question still remains....

Could this just be one more evolutionary cycle? I'm not thinking in a mortal aspect, but if our atom-size exsistance in this universe is slated for an amazing event.........shouldn't we welcome it? I for one look forward to a big celestial event.....providing we don't blow each other up first

And to think, i thought haley's comet was a big deal.

Hey guys,

Good discussion going on.

Just want to clear something, the Kali Yuga is not to end for thousands of years. We are still relatively in the beginning of the Kali Yuga.

Originally posted by kshatreya_putrudu
Hey guys,

Good discussion going on.

Just want to clear something, the Kali Yuga is not to end for thousands of years. We are still relatively in the beginning of the Kali Yuga.

Thank you for that, I had a conversation with a Hindu who was a retail clerk in town, and he had intimated that it was very near. The descriptions of the end of it certainly apply today. Sorry for posting info. that is hearsay, I try not to.... hey I am not perfect, by a long ways.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by dirty_g

The link I provided did show from old charts that the precision happened in 1997 (coincidentally the year I found out about the 2012 date) . What more do you want? More links?

Yes, more sources to prove the credibility of your claim would be ideal. The link you provided was someones thoughts and opinions on astrology hosted by Geocities...this hardly constitutes a credible source.

Look at the link and where he got the charts from. They are not just ones he made up at home they are from actual observatries. By the way isnt the whole end of world 2012 thing just some peoples opinion?

Also the arguments against what I am saying are just people not liking what I have said. Its a fact that actually decoding what the maya have put is very hard and it is how people have interpreted it. Which is why the argumentsd about it. Also there is much speculation as to if the date 2012 is even a correct date. Would you like another link to look at? oh go on then!! en.wikipedia.org... anyway this has a nice bit on the Mayan Calender and also tells how the calculations were flawed anyway. Still I'm sure somebody on the board will still tell me it is wrong simply because they say so. Send me a link with your own evidence if you wish to contradict me rather than telling me im wrong as you just think so. By the way these people do want to sell books. Honestly!

[edit on 19-12-2005 by dirty_g]

[edit on 19-12-2005 by dirty_g]

Originally posted by dirty_g

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by dirty_g

The link I provided did show from old charts that the precision happened in 1997 (coincidentally the year I found out about the 2012 date) . What more do you want? More links?

Yes, more sources to prove the credibility of your claim would be ideal. The link you provided was someones thoughts and opinions on astrology hosted by Geocities...this hardly constitutes a credible source.

Look at the link and where he got the charts from. They are not just ones he made up at home they are from actual observatries. By the way isnt the whole end of world 2012 thing just some peoples opinion?

Also the arguments against what I am saying are just people not liking what I have said. Its a fact that actually decoding what the maya have put is very hard and it is how people have interpreted it. Which is why the argumentsd about it. Also there is much speculation as to if the date 2012 is even a correct date. Would you like another link to look at? oh go on then!! en.wikipedia.org... anyway this has a nice bit on the Mayan Calender and also tells how the calculations were flawed anyway. Still I'm sure somebody on the board will still tell me it is wrong simply because they say so. Send me a link with your own evidence if you wish to contradict me rather than telling me im wrong as you just think so. By the way these people do want to sell books. Honestly!

[edit on 19-12-2005 by dirty_g]

[edit on 19-12-2005 by dirty_g]

Hey,

I have no clue about all the other end of world propositions, but I was just pointing out that the Kali Yuga is not ending anytime soon.

I have no online resuourses because I got this fact from my grandmother's sister. She is an astrologer. We have our own system of counting years and our new year usually starts in the first 2 weeks of april. So a few months before the astrologers in the temple all sit together and based on old scriptures and calculations figure out exactly what day the next year is supposed to start and all the auspicious days and times of the year. I know that the years go in cycles of 60.

Anyway she obviously keeps track of the years and she told me that there are thousands of years before it ends.

Once again I am not trying to say anything about the mayan calendar or about the christian prophecies or about any other related end of world prophecy. I just wanted to say that the Kali Yuga is technically not supposed to end any time soon.

originally posted by dirty_g
Look at the link and where he got the charts from. They are not just ones he made up at home they are from actual observatries. By the way isnt the whole end of world 2012 thing just some peoples opinion?

It doesn't matter where Dr. Simpson gets his charts from because he is still making his measurements based on the varying sizes of the zodiac constellations. I'm not an expert so I could be mistaken, but it seems to have more to do with the astrological Tropical v. Sidereal Zodiac systems then the topic at hand. If you read the original posts of this thread you'll see plenty of references to the various opinions of the actual dating of these events. The reason why the Western Zodiac concepts are being compared to the Mayan calendar system is because the c.5,125 year Mayan Great Cycle is one fifth of a Great Great Cycle, a span of time very near that of a Platonic Great Year, the time it takes for the precession of the equinox to pass full circle around the houses of the zodiac. Of course the fact that the world ends in 2012 is just an opinion. You're material, unlike the original posts of this thread, is the one that contains biased information that doesn't allow for the potentialities of other theories or opinions. While there has been a smattering of discussion on possible destructive consequences of alignment with galactic center, there is clearly an emphasis being made that the concept of the "end of the world" is a mythological allegory to describe the transition between World Ages. It's poetic, its not meant to be taken literally.

From the Wikipedia article linked to by dirty_g:

The last creation ended on a long count of 13.0.0.0.0. Another 13.0.0.0.0 will occur on December 21, 2012...

originally posted by kshatreya_putrudu
Just want to clear something, the Kali Yuga is not to end for thousands of years. We are still relatively in the beginning of the Kali Yuga.

No offense meant to your aunt but it's a controversial matter as far as I know, with more than one viewpoint on when the Yuga began and exactly how long it actually is.

Here's some more interesting information regarding the Hindu system and the precession:

In the Hindu system of time cycles, the longest cycles last trillions of years, but at the shorter end of the cycle spectrum, we have the four Yugas, which are:

Krita Yuga (Golden Age): 1,728,000 years = 2,160 x 800

Treta Yuga (Silver Age): 1,296,000 years =2,160 x 600

Dvapara Yuga (Copper/Bronze Age): 864,000 years =2,160 x 400

Kali Yuga (Iron Age): 432,000 years =2,160 x 200

Each Yuga is split into 3 parts; dawn; day; and dusk:

Krita Yuga: dawn = 144,000; day = 1,440,000; dusk = 144,000

Treta Yuga: dawn: 108,000; day: 1,080,000; dusk: 108,000

Dvapara Yuga: dawn:72,000; day: 720,000; dusk: 72,000

Kali Yuga: dawn: 36,000; day: 360,000; dusk: 36,000



If these numbers look familiar, that is because they are precessional numbers:



Platonic Year = 25,920 years (12 x 2,160) - 1 complete precession of the equinoxes (or solstices);

Platonic month = 2,160 years - precession of the equinox through one sign of the zodiac;

Platonic day = 72 years - precession of the equinox through one degree;

2 Platonic months = 4,320 years; half a Platonic month = 1,080 years; 2 Platonic days = 144 years

360 x 72 = 25,920.

Rene Guenon and others says we are now nearing the end of Kali Yuga, although some sources say it only started in 3,102 BC. John Major Jenkins' recent book, Galactic Alignment goes into the Vedic Yuga system in some detail, and he studies the work of Hindu saint, Sri Swami Yukteswar, (born 1855), who discovered an oversight in the Vedas, and went on to explain it. In one of the oldest Vedic writings, attributed to the god-man Manu, the 4 Yugas are said to add up to 24,000 years, but when they are enumerated, they only come to 12,000 years. The Satya Yuga (Golden Age) lasts 4,800 years; the Treta Yuga (Silver Age) lasts 3,600 years; the Dvapara Yuga (Bronze Age) lasts 2,400 years, and the Kali Yuga (Iron Age) lasts 1,200 years.
Yukteswar explained the enigma in a diagram that equates the 12,000 years to a descending half of the 24,000-year cycle, and another 12,000 years to an ascending half. Jenkins’ Study of the Yukteswar analysis shows that Yukteswar was talking about the precession cycle, but basing it on a 24,000-year cycle, rather than the (approx.) 25,700-year cycle recognised(sic) by astronomy. The descent into darkness started when the Summer (June) solstice sun was aligned with Galactic Centre, around 10,800 BC, and the ascent back to light starts when the Winter (December) solstice sun aligns with Galactic Centre circa 1998-2012

So, the Yuga system is about precession, as we have decoded from the classic cycle lengths above, and after looking at Jenkins' updates to Yukteswar's work, we can see that the end of Descending Kali Yuga corresponds to the Pisces - Aquarius transition of Western astrology, and to the solstice-galaxy alignment era AD 1998 - 2012.

From an interesting web site that I haven't yet had time to fully explore:

Dire Gnosis: 2012



[edit on 19-12-2005 by Cicada]

hey cicada,

She is actually my great aunt.

Anyways the information you provided is consistent with what I said.
Kali yuga is supposed to last 420,000 years.

Kali yuga started on the day Krishna died and Dwaraka went underwater. According to the excavated dwaraka site in india, the city went underwater approximately 5000 to 6000 years. Which means that the Kali yuga is not ending anytime soon.

Also, the fact that I know that kali yuga started when dwaraka went underwater is also from the veda scriptures themselves. (again from my g.aunt and her peeps, lol) When I go to india next time, ill try photocopying the scriptures themselves...although they will be in sanskrit.

I have no online resources to provide at this time, but i'll try and look up some on the internet.

[edit on 19/12/05 by kshatreya_putrudu]

One thing for certain is that Vedic literature has a propensity for grandiose numbers. Unlike most of the polytheistic theologies discussed on these boards, Hinduism is a living, evolving system with c.800 million followers. Meaning no offense to this profound and immensely important belief system, it should be noted that we're talking about poetry generated at least 3,500 years ago, and encoded in known written form over 2,500 years ago. There's definitely room for multiple interpretations and opinions regarding the Vedic time system do vary.

My orientation on the subject is largely the belief that the mythological systems of many world cultures, particularly the Indo-European line, are misunderstood astronomical allegories. This means that a literal interpretation of Vedic scripture is not likely to provide us with much hard data to work with. I haven't by any means read all of the Vedas and of course what I have read was a translation, but these materials are available to all of us, at our fingertips:

The Vedas

If we separate from the religious belief system and look at the lengths presented for the Yugas we find that the Kali Yuga is 1,200 Deva years long. Each human year is described as just a day for the Devas, in a 360 day per year system this makes the length of the Yuga 432,000 human years long, that's the source of those numbers. Deva years=God years, but if we are reading Indo-European deities as allegorical figures representing celestial figures and bodies then we can not really take much immediate stock of the hyperbolic descriptions of Deva years. If we add up the lengths of the various Yugas in Deva years we get 12,000 (4,320,000 human years). As my above link and quote show, the Hindu saint Sri Swami Yukteswar explained an enigma between the value of 12,000 years and a statement in an early Veda attributed to Manu that the Four Yugas equaled 24,000 years, diagramming how the 12,000 year period represented the ascending or descending half of the larger cycle.

Yes but the thread you have shown is just somebody else opinion isnt it? Much like mine was. Its all opinions at the end of the day! Not meaning to sound petty. What did you think of the Wikipedia link I gave by the way. Saying that maybe the date was worked out wrong? All thoughts gratefully received!

[edit on 20-12-2005 by dirty_g]

dirty_g,

Which thread that I've shown are you referring to? In post number 1870407 I quoted the Wikipedia article you linked to, so that's the opinion of leading Myanists. In the same post I quoted numerical information from the ancient Hindu Vedas, which is a major world religion. Interpreting the information of the Vedas is a matter of varying opinion, but the numbers in discussion are not. The web sire Dire Gnosis: 2012 is a huge database of articles so I would imagine that it contains the opinions of dozens of people.
Then in my next post I linked to the Vedas themselves as an alternative to flying to India and taking pictures of texts written in Sanskrit.

You're trying to call me a hypocrite, but I think you're missing my point. I don't have a problem with anybody presenting any opinion if they're careful in describing it as such. Reread my posts. I'm careful about my language. I also make sure I understand the basis of my source material before I link to it.

So what do I think of the Wikipedia article? I'm for it because it supports what the original posts and I have been saying. What part of the article is it that you feel supports your position? The sequence of numbers "1997" doesn't appear once in the article but it does state:

The Long Count started at 13.0.0.0.0 on Julian day 584283 (3114 BC August 11 in the proleptic Gregorian calendar, or 3114 BC September 6 in the proleptic Julian calendar) according to the "Goodman, Martinez-Hernandez, Thompson" correlation (nicknamed "GMT"), the most widely accepted correlation between the Maya and Gregorian calendar. The baktuns progress 13, 1, 2, ..., 12. Because of this progression, many start the Long Count at 0.0.0.0.0 rather than 13.0.0.0.0, even though the Maya glyph for their epoch literally means "the completion of 13 baktuns". This cycle is 1,872,000 days in length, terminating on the Winter Solstice of 2012 (December 21, Gregorian) and is designated 13.0.0.0.0, since the Maya believed that time is periodic. Another correlation sometimes used, that of Lounsbury, correlates the start-day to JD 584285 (3114 BC August 13 (Gregorian) = 3114 BC September 8 (Julian) ) and the terminal date to 2012 December 23 (Gregorian).

Hey cicada,

About the swami yukteswar, I just thing that his timings are too short for things to have happened. And it was his personal opinion more than research done on the vedas and puranas. Im just going to go into something else, but ill keep the post as short as possible, because this thread is about mayan 2012 and not kali yuga.

If you compare the 10 avatars of vishnu, you can clearly see the process of evolution:
1 - fish - evolution all started in the ocean with fish forst showing up (ofcouse after the microbes)
2 - tortoise - amphibians
3 - boar - landanimal
4 - half man, half beast
5 - short man - the first humanoid species?
6 - axe man - tool man
7 - rama - first kingdom
8 - krishna
9 - balarama
10 - kalki

Anyway...if we keep the evolution process in mind, then the long time periods make more sense than the small one proposed by swami yukteswar.

And, if you want to discuss more on this lets start a seperate thread on kali yuga, because I think I am changing the main point of this thread.