first - public apology to the Masons and the board

I would like to publicly apologize to the Masons (esp Senrak) for the posts I have made regarding their socieity being involved in a large conspiracy, satanic numbers, anarchic symbols, etc. Initially I came in here (ATS) with the intentions of discussing conspiracies and posted a commment that was taken in the wrong way. Followig this I elected to have some fun with it since it was taken so seriously. This took a turn for the worse and got a little out of hand. In no way were any of my posts intended to be accurate nor were they to portray the Masons in such a way.

I look forward to learning about what ALL people say in discussions about the Masons and other secret societies. In doing so, I am to bring more relevant and accurate topics to the board as opposed to the nonsense that was previously posted.

I do find Detective Perez's information interesting and very informative not to mention well researched. If I do discuss it with him/you it will be for the sake of discussion. Not for the sake of controversy.

Thank You,

Dribbler

I have never read your controversial posts but apologizing this way is a very noble thing to do. I am impressed!

Dribbler,

If your post is sincere, I for one certainly accept your apology and thank you. The only way we can learn is to listen and discuss...not argue or insult. The majority of us who are Masons on this board will be glad to have intelligent discussions about Masonry with anyone who is willing to listen. We'll continue to debunk blatant hatred and Anti-Masonry because the things that are being said simply are not true. Many fundamentalist Christians (shudder) are against Freemasonry because we allow men of ANY faith to be Masons. That isn't going to change (neither on the part of the fundamentalist Christians nor on the part of the Freemasons) so they'll likely continue to attack us. That's sad, but it's their problem. (My signature line says it all) Many attack us because we have secret meetings and there's a flaw in human nature that makes one assume that anything done secretly MUST be bad. That's sad, too, but we'll continue to guard the door when we meet. ...and we'll continue to help one another and our fellow human beings. Our Shriners hospitals will keep their doors open giving FREE (FREE FREE FREE) care to crippled and burned children. We'll keep helping the widows of our members and our elderly in the various Masonic Homes across the country. Yep. We'll keep on being true Brothers to each other regardless of our particular faith or creed and (some of) the Profane will continue to call us evil.

Sorry. I got carried away. Now I'd be glad to discuss whatever.

Regards

That's what usually happens when one decides to "have fun" with others opinion concerning something that is dear to them....however, it shows character to realize a mistake, apologize, and change......

I agree with you Senrak. As previously stated, I knew a Jobs Daughter and she was confronted by a supposed very Christian person indicating that her practicies were going to lead to her Hell. One day I found her crying and asked what was wrong. She was very upset becaue her friend had just died in a car accident. I said that there will come a day when she sees her again in Heaven. She became even more upset and repeated what the supposed Christian said about her going to Hell. This leads me to believe that there has always been a conflict of interest among religioins and it is this that leads to wars and errorism.
I will never forget the look on someones face after a supposed Christian told her that she was going to go to Hell becuase of her practices. I was born and raised Catholic and posess a strong faith in God and Jesus. To me, I cannot understand how one could do something to another. Please enlighten me and tell me what the beliefs are that could have caused such a comment by a supposed Christian.

I will not appologize for what I have said about the masonic covert intelligence/ treasonious organisation. It is a evil system that entraps good people. Now saying that.................

I know of an old OSS/Mason who needs special help, only the masons can give. Normally I wouldnt give a mountain of fly crap for a mason, but this man is saintly, and needs your help. He is being ripped off by social security, and a vendictive X wife. I have told him to contact the FBI, but that may not be enough.

SO, you Masons want to prove your value? Contact me if you think you can help out

I care about people, not some evil system!

Originally posted by dribbler
I agree with you Senrak. As previously stated, I knew a Jobs Daughter and she was confronted by a supposed very Christian person indicating that her practicies were going to lead to her Hell. One day I found her crying and asked what was wrong. She was very upset becaue her friend had just died in a car accident. I said that there will come a day when she sees her again in Heaven. She became even more upset and repeated what the supposed Christian said about her going to Hell. This leads me to believe that there has always been a conflict of interest among religioins and it is this that leads to wars and errorism.
I will never forget the look on someones face after a supposed Christian told her that she was going to go to Hell becuase of her practices. I was born and raised Catholic and posess a strong faith in God and Jesus. To me, I cannot understand how one could do something to another. Please enlighten me and tell me what the beliefs are that could have caused such a comment by a supposed Christian.

That's a difficult question (and a sad thing that happened to this girl) Fundamentalism seems to be the root of a lot of problems with ANY religion. These individuals can only see one thing and they tend to believe that they are adamantly RIGHT and everyone else is undenyably WRONG.

Even more unfortunately many of these individuals profess to be Christians. (As a Christian myself, that's particularly distressing because it puts a bad light on all of us) I'm sure many are well-meaning and truly BELIEVE that Masons and those afilliated with them are going to Hell, but many are opportunists and hate-mongers (i.e. anything BUT Christian)

A good friend of mine was joining the Lodge and an evangelist came to his church and told of the evils of Freemasonry. Some of the silliness included such ridiculous statements as:

There is a "secret degree" that average Masons never hear of called "Master Mason" (of course that's the third degree and ALL Masons know about it)

The degree teaches that Satan is really God and that the lower degree Masons are worshipping Satan, but don't know it.

Of course I debunked ALL of this, particularly the part about worshipping and not knowing it (what with worship being a conscious act and all) but he'd have no part of it. The word of a good friend who is a Mason who's VERY active and has read hundreds of books on the subject and even done some writing on the subject was not good enough. But the word of a fundamentalist preacher who had NEVER been a Mason was. A shame.

A couple of years ago the Lodge was condemned by an Anglican Bishop in Australia. He told his members either leave the Lodge or don't come to Mass! which is in my opinion, even worse than simply refusing communion to Lodge members.

I sent a message to our Parish Priest and asked if this was forthcoming in the Episcopal Church in this country. Because quite frankly if the Episcopal Church said either leave the Lodge or don't come to Mass, there would be an empty pew on Sunday morning. He responded with quite a bit of insightful information (and he's not a Mason, btw) and said something that I've used in a few similar discussions. Part of his response said "Jesus meant it when he said 'in my Father's house there are many dwelling-places' . . . room enough for Masons and even a few crotchety old Bishops!"

I feel the same way about Anti-Masons and mis-guided fundamentalists. Many of them feel that they'll be up there all alone, but there will be some Lodge members up there too. I'd never say "all of them" because Freemasonry isn't a religion and offers no path of salvation (something fundamentalists/Anti-Masons can't get through their heads) so a Mason is to find that in the church or the path of his choice. We only ask that he believe in a Supreme Creator. What he believes is his and God's business.

Oh well...enough rambling. Sometimes I get a bit zealous.

Regards,

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
I will not appologize for what I have said about the masonic covert intelligence/ treasonious organisation. It is a evil system that entraps good people. Now saying that.................

I know of an old OSS/Mason who needs special help, only the masons can give. Normally I wouldnt give a mountain of fly crap for a mason, but this man is saintly, and needs your help. He is being ripped off by social security, and a vendictive X wife. I have told him to contact the FBI, but that may not be enough.

SO, you Masons want to prove your value? Contact me if you think you can help out

I care about people, not some evil system!

Dribbler,

Here's a classic example of what I was talking about in my second response in this thread.

Non-Seeing Eye,

I'm afraid you're beyond any help a Mason could give. I guess there's no hope of a serious Masonic tread in this forum.

Senrak, thank you for your answer.

So out of curiosity, is Freemasonry considered a church and/or do you have regular "Mass"? The way it sounds to me is that you are a member of the Masons and each member belongs to their own church which promotes a belief in God.

If not, why would someone claim that you are into worshipping satan? How can a secret society that is not a church have satanic beliefs or such a background?

Is your God the same God that the Catholics, Lutheran, Episcopal's etc. worship?

Originally posted by dribbler
Initially I came in here (ATS) with the intentions of discussing conspiracies and posted a commment that was taken in the wrong way. Followig this I elected to have some fun with it since it was taken so seriously. This took a turn for the worse and got a little out of hand. In no way were any of my posts intended to be accurate nor were they to portray the Masons in such a way.

Ha-ha! I knew it! Look back at the messages -- I said you were just teasing.

Anyway, you're forgiven by me without let or hinderance. As I've said before, Masons are taught to forgive the penitent, and believe in giving people a second chance.

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
SO, you Masons want to prove your value? Contact me if you think you can help out

Um... we have a whole system set up for this kind of situation, which doesn't (forgive me) require the aid of an intermediary who hates us. Just tell your friend to contact his local Lodge secretary. He will find a receptive ear and a kind heart. For example, Masons up here (not me, unfortunately, and I regret it to this day) helped a poor brother down on his luck build a new house (a straw house) because he had no money and nowhere to live.

So out of curiosity, is Freemasonry considered a church and/or do you have regular "Mass"? The way it sounds to me is that you are a member of the Masons and each member belongs to their own church which promotes a belief in God.

as i recall from my MUCH younger days as a DeMolay and the Various discussions over the years with Masons and a great deal of backgruond study,
The Masonic Order is not and never has been a church/religion. as i recall religion is one of the topics the there is a specific ban on the discussion of in the hall.

i could be wrong if so please correct me.

Originally posted by senrak
A couple of years ago the Lodge was condemned by an Anglican Bishop in Australia. He told his members either leave the Lodge or don't come to Mass! which is in my opinion, even worse than simply refusing communion to Lodge members.

It is, in fact. It's the second level of excommunication, or "true" excommunication. It sickens me to read this -- to deny anyone the communion by which sins are (supposedly) washed away, and which is their only path to heaven, for whatever reason, is absolutely, unqualifiedly, despicable.

Part of his response said "Jesus meant it when he said 'in my Father's house there are many dwelling-places' . . . room enough for Masons and even a few crotchety old Bishops!"

Yaay! Similarly, our All Saints Anglican Cathedral up here has an annual "Church Parade Day" for the members of the Royal Arch Chapters, when we're all welcomed into church. It strongly inclines me to attend that church on a regular basis (I don't, but that's my own deal).

Originally posted by dribbler
So out of curiosity, is Freemasonry considered a church and/or do you have regular "Mass"?

No, not at all. Freemasonry is not a religion in any sense of the word. It does not teach a doctrine, nor a method of salvation. If you need to label it, it is probably best described (IMO) as a philosophical and spiritual school, which teaches a man about his duties to God, country, family, etc., and about the nature of his relationship with the Deity, without inculcating ANY religious doctrine or opinion.

The way it sounds to me is that you are a member of the Masons and each member belongs to their own church which promotes a belief in God.

Absolutely. Or, even, not a member of a church at all. I have a profound belief in God, but I am not a church-goer (I am a Christian, by the way). My friend Bro. Trenholm is in the process of converting to Islam. My friend Bro. Deol is a Sikh. My friends the Bros. Twigg (who are father and son, and also Brothers -- we have fun with that one ) are Jews. A person who I'm hoping will petition to join my Lodge is a "Hindu" (although "Hindu" is not specific as a religion, AFAIK. One has more specific doctrines within the Hindu framework, such as being a Vainavist or Saivist).

If not, why would someone claim that you are into worshipping satan?

Several reasons. One is sheer hatred. Second is the fact that we allow in people from all sorts of different religions -- people don't like that. Third is that we teach that religious tyrrany is wrong -- again, some people have an interest in religious tyrrany. Fourth is a little complicated -- people have read false statements made by others, and have believed them. If someone you trust told you Freemasons were killing babies, and you believed him or her, wouldn't you want to stop Freemasons too?

I think the majority of the people on this board who are anti-Masons fit into categories one and four. Mostly four.

I should note that these are roughly the same reasons people hate the Jews... group hatred is almost always along the same pattern.

How can a secret society that is not a church have satanic beliefs or such a background?

I don't know. We don't have Satanic beliefs or a Satanic background, so I'm afraid we can't help you answer that question.

Is your God the same God that the Catholics, Lutheran, Episcopal's etc. worship?

Yes. This is a complicated answer. Freemasonry doesn have its "own" God. Each Freemason worships God in his own way. A doctrine I hold is that all Monotheists worship the same God, simply in different ways... so obviously all brethren in Lodge are worshipping the same God. However, there is NO NO NO Freemasonic "God." We use the term "Great Architect of the Universe," meaning God, who is the Great Architect of the Universe (you know, he made it).

Originally posted by dribbler
Senrak, thank you for your answer.

So out of curiosity, is Freemasonry considered a church and/or do you have regular "Mass"? The way it sounds to me is that you are a member of the Masons and each member belongs to their own church which promotes a belief in God.

If not, why would someone claim that you are into worshipping satan? How can a secret society that is not a church have satanic beliefs or such a background?

Is your God the same God that the Catholics, Lutheran, Episcopal's etc. worship?

I just got back home and was about to respond...but...AlexKennedy has already posted an excellent response, so I "ditto" what he said.

I've always thought it curious that the uninformed can think we Masons unknowingly worship Satan, but if that's what they want to think it's fine. I know better.

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
I will not appologize for what I have said about the masonic covert intelligence/ treasonious organisation. It is a evil system that entraps good people. Now saying that.................

I know of an old OSS/Mason who needs special help, only the masons can give. Normally I wouldnt give a mountain of fly crap for a mason, but this man is saintly, and needs your help. He is being ripped off by social security, and a vendictive X wife. I have told him to contact the FBI, but that may not be enough.

SO, you Masons want to prove your value? Contact me if you think you can help out

I care about people, not some evil system!

By the way non-Seeing-Eye,

Nice Avatar. Masons run a treasonous organization, huh?

He was a member of Marion McDaniel Lodge #56 (The Duke's Lodge), Tucson, AZ
(Entered Apprentice Degree 7/9/70, Fellowcraft 7/10/70, Master Mason July 11, 1970).

Demitted to Hollywood Lodgein California . Remained in good standing until his death.

Belonged to Glendale, CA, Chapter Order of DeMolay.

Joined Al Malaikah Shrine in Los Angeles.

He was made a 33rd Degree member in the Scottish Rite in Los Angeles, CA.

...guess it's another prime example of trapping a good person, huh?




[edit on 21-8-2004 by senrak]

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
I will not appologize for what I have said about the masonic covert intelligence/ treasonious organisation. It is a evil system that entraps good people. Now saying that.................

I know of an old OSS/Mason who needs special help, only the masons can give. Normally I wouldnt give a mountain of fly crap for a mason, but this man is saintly, and needs your help. He is being ripped off by social security, and a vendictive X wife. I have told him to contact the FBI, but that may not be enough.

SO, you Masons want to prove your value? Contact me if you think you can help out

I care about people, not some evil system!

Dribbler,

Here's a classic example of what I was talking about in my second response in this thread.

Non-Seeing Eye,

I'm afraid you're beyond any help a Mason could give. I guess there's no hope of a serious Masonic tread in this forum.

Ummm, Im not asking for masons to help me, but to help one of your own. Im afraid you have misunderstood my post.

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
I will not appologize for what I have said about the masonic covert intelligence/ treasonious organisation. It is a evil system that entraps good people. Now saying that.................

I know of an old OSS/Mason who needs special help, only the masons can give. Normally I wouldnt give a mountain of fly crap for a mason, but this man is saintly, and needs your help. He is being ripped off by social security, and a vendictive X wife. I have told him to contact the FBI, but that may not be enough.

SO, you Masons want to prove your value? Contact me if you think you can help out

I care about people, not some evil system!

Becareful not to break your arm patting yourself on the back.

If you truely were trying to solicit assistance for this individual, it appears that you would have contacted the Masonic Lodge local to the individual. Instead you chose to post it as part of some bizarre anti-Mason rant on a public message board, while touting your own superior humanity in the process. I am left pondering your true intentions and sincerity.
.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
.Masons are taught to forgive the penitent, and believe in giving people a second chance.

That value is imprinted within the soul of every living man, woman and child. It is also taught to nearly every culture in the world. Wither or not people listen is another thing, it has NOTHING to do with being a mason or not.

If you weren't a mason I bet you would still have that value.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

How can a secret society that is not a church have satanic beliefs or such a background?

I don't know. We don't have Satanic beliefs or a Satanic background, so I'm afraid we can't help you answer that question.

I think I did not pharse my quesiton correctly.

In your defense against those who label you Satanists, if you are not a church how can you be worshipping Satan?

I do not know if that is any better. FYI I am not implying that you are Satanists whatsoever. I see no emperical evidence of Masons worshiping Satan at all.

I do see wehre it could be misconstrued due to the fact that you allow any type of religion into your society.

Are there any religions you do not allow in?


[edit on 22-8-2004 by dribbler]