Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
That value is imprinted within the soul of every living man, woman and child. It is also taught to nearly every culture in the world. Wither or not people listen is another thing, it has NOTHING to do with being a mason or not.

If you weren't a mason I bet you would still have that value.

It seems that what you are saying is that "a man must already be Mason in his heart" before he joins the fraternity. I have read this in many places and believe it to be true.

The following words from a Masonic scholar further support your proposition.

From "The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry" by Manly P. Hall
The true student realizes most of all that the taking of degrees does not make a man a Mason. A Mason is not appointed; he is evolved and he must realize that the position he holds in the exoteric lodge means nothing compared to his position in the spiritual lodge of life. He must forever discard the idea that he can be told or instructed in the sacred Mysteries or that his being a member of an organization improves him in any way. He must realize that his duty is to build and evolve the sacred teachings in his own being: that nothing but his own purified being can unlock the door to the sealed libraries of human consciousness, and that his Masonic rites must eternally be speculative until he makes them operative by living the life of the mystic Mason.

Originally posted by dribbler

I do see wehre it could be misconstrued due to the fact that you allow any type of religion into your society.

Are there any religions you do not allow in?

Satanists...

Dribbler dear

I think you did the right thing (I never read your posts so dont know what you wrote against the Masons)....but, whatever you said - you felt inside of you that you needed to apologize - you could have easily left this site, or logged on again with a different name - but no, you came back, apologized and as I said in an earlier post, I think that was very noble of you.

If more people could be more humble in life and admit their mistakes - well, I think we would have fewer problems in the world...

But, Dribb darling, now that you have apologized, dont go trying to create more antagonisms stemming from preconceived perceptions - listen, read and educate yourself upon the subject and then and only then post your (aggressive) opinions - until then, ask questions only,,,, there is a lot to learn....

Originally posted by df1
It seems that what you are saying is that "a man must already be Mason in his heart" before he joins the fraternity. I have read this in many places and believe it to be true.

The following words from a Masonic scholar further support your proposition.

From "The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry" by Manly P. Hall
The true student realizes most of all that the taking of degrees does not make a man a Mason. A Mason is not appointed; he is evolved and he must realize that the position he holds in the exoteric lodge means nothing compared to his position in the spiritual lodge of life. He must forever discard the idea that he can be told or instructed in the sacred Mysteries or that his being a member of an organization improves him in any way. He must realize that his duty is to build and evolve the sacred teachings in his own being: that nothing but his own purified being can unlock the door to the sealed libraries of human consciousness, and that his Masonic rites must eternally be speculative until he makes them operative by living the life of the mystic Mason.

That's awesome, thanks for posting that. It's refreshing to see someone posting an excerpt from a book about Freemasonry that's not trying to make Albert Pike look like a Satanist or trying to "prove" that the Freemasons worship Baphomet or some other such nonsense.

That one will now go on the "must read" list which is quickly becoming quite long.


Dribbler, you were just given some very wise advice. Think about it. And kudos to you for having the beans to say you were wrong.

[edit on 8/22/04 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Sarahko
Dribbler dear

I think you did the right thing (I never read your posts so dont know what you wrote against the Masons)....but, whatever you said - you felt inside of you that you needed to apologize - you could have easily left this site, or logged on again with a different name - but no, you came back, apologized and as I said in an earlier post, I think that was very noble of you.

If more people could be more humble in life and admit their mistakes - well, I think we would have fewer problems in the world...

But, Dribb darling, now that you have apologized, dont go trying to create more antagonisms stemming from preconceived perceptions - listen, read and educate yourself upon the subject and then and only then post your (aggressive) opinions - until then, ask questions only,,,, there is a lot to learn....

What are you talking about?

Originally posted by theron dunn

Originally posted by dribbler

I do see wehre it could be misconstrued due to the fact that you allow any type of religion into your society.

Are there any religions you do not allow in?

Satanists...

Atheists....

And what if a Satanist believes in God, but worships Satan. Do Masons ask about religious affiliation?

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by theron dunn

Originally posted by dribbler

I do see wehre it could be misconstrued due to the fact that you allow any type of religion into your society.

Are there any religions you do not allow in?

Satanists...

Atheists....

And what if a Satanist believes in God, but worships Satan. Do Masons ask about religious affiliation?

That's a good question I hadn't thought of... I don't know why such a person would want to join Freemasonry, though.

Someone who worshipped Satan would not be predisposed to do good works and strive to be an upright and moral man, IMO.

We do not ask a man's religious affiliations, but, as was noted above, a satanist is unlikely to want to do good works, or be a good person. It is not enough just to ask to join. We also send out an investigating committee on each candidate, to interview him and his references.

We would consider, at least I would, that a satanist is NOT a good man, not a moral man, and not a good candidate for masonry. Having been a member of the investigation committee, if I found a man to be a satanist in my investigation, or an atheist (though by definition, an atheist does not believe in g-d, and that is not a religious faith or a religion, he would not even be considered) I would recommend a NO vote. I would also inform the master that the applicant was a satanist, and as such, his application would be disqualified.

If for some unexplained reason the master did NOT disqualify the petition, I would rise to inform the brethren the candidate was a satanist, and would myself cast a black cube to reject, as would, I am certain, the balance of the brethren.

The petition, at least in GLoCA, asks if you have a faith in g-d and the immortality of the soul...

lol, yea, that is a good point. I doubt a satanist would be a good guy. I certainly haven't heard of any satanists that do good.

It would take a special person to pull that one off, like the anti-christ or something to make people believe he is good while worshipping satan. If I'm wrong about the anti-christ don't mind me because I don't know much about him, but I think you get what I'm saying anyway.

[edit on 22-8-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
That value is imprinted within the soul of every living man, woman and child. It is also taught to nearly every culture in the world. Wither or not people listen is another thing, it has NOTHING to do with being a mason or not.

If you weren't a mason I bet you would still have that value.

So, Masonry's worthless because people don't absolutely require it to be good?

Actually, just for your information, I was a very angry person before I became a Mason (you may see some of that trickle through the internet even now). I did not embrace that value fully until after I became a Freemason. Why is it so hard to believe that people can be taught something, and can change? Or is it just that your mind won't allow you to believe that Freemasonry can improve its members?

Originally posted by The Axeman
or trying to "prove" that the Freemasons worship Baphomet or some other such nonsense.

"Baphomet" is a medieval French mis-pronunciation of the name of the Prophet Mohammed (MPBUH). Muslims don't "worship" the Prophet, but some of them may be said to have a very appreciative attitude of him, which might be called "worship" of another human being (but not at all in the same way they worship God, of course). Some Freemasons are Muslims. Hence, some Freemasons "worship" Mohammed. Hence, some Freemasons "worship" Baphomet (My toungue is very much in my cheek on this one.

That one will now go on the "must read" list which is quickly becoming quite long.

MPH wrote "The Lost Keys of Freemasonry" years before becoming a Freemason -- on the other hand, I agree with the excerpt provided by DF1. I'm not sure all of the book is that reliable, though.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Atheists....

Atheism is not a religion. It is a lack of religion.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
"Baphomet" is a medieval French mis-pronunciation of the name of the Prophet Mohammed (MPBUH).

Yeah, I know that, I meant the big hairy goatboy looking fellow. You knew what I meant, you just love to be clever, don't you Alex?

MPH wrote "The Lost Keys of Freemasonry" years before becoming a Freemason -- on the other hand, I agree with the excerpt provided by DF1. I'm not sure all of the book is that reliable, though.

Well that excerpt certainly represented the Masons in a warm light, why would you say that it is unreliable?

[edit on 8/22/04 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman
Well that excerpt certainly represented the Masons in a warm light, why would you say that it is unreliable?

Only because he wrote it before becoming a Mason -- I haven't read the book.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Actually, just for your information, I was a very angry person before I became a Mason (you may see some of that trickle through the internet even now). I did not embrace that value fully until after I became a Freemason. Why is it so hard to believe that people can be taught something, and can change? Or is it just that your mind won't allow you to believe that Freemasonry can improve its members?

Bro. Alex,
perhaps it is so hard to convince people that they can change for the better because they have convinced themselves that it cannot be done. If you say something long enough, you believe it is true. Some people prefer darkness to light. They are convinced that what they are is etched in stone...

Perhaps misery loves company and that is why folks want to believe Freemasonry cannot improve its members. They don't want others to be happy, and be better people.

DTOM,

that's probably true... masonry has made a significant difference in my life, one that I can see. Folks that criticize masons do so for a couple of reasons:

Skepticism. they think that since their lives are what they are that no one else can make a change

Small spirits... they can't stand it that someone might be making themselves better and want to drag them back into the muck in which they live. These are the same folks that criticize christians for being "holier than thou".

fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of being rejected...

No problem. Understanding these folks makes it easier to deal with them.

For me, I would not trade freemasonry for anything in the world.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
If you say something long enough, you believe it is true. Some people prefer darkness to light.

Sister, what you say is very true. Mediocrity is a very tempting option. After all, if you choose to believe that all stances are equal, that all claims are equally true, and that no group of people can be any "better" than any other group of people (no matter what measuring stick you're using to determine "better" and "worse,"), then not only are you freed from having to take any personal initiative in your life, but also you're going along with the zeitgeist.

Seems like we've gone too far -- in rejecting the despicable fascist ideology which states that everyone's lot in life is solely their own doing (so there's no reason to help the poor or the miserable -- it's their own decision to be that way), we seem to have embraced the opposite poison: no-one's even slightly responsible for their own life, so why bother trying to raise yourself above mediocrity?

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
... we seem to have embraced the opposite poison: no-one's even slightly responsible for their own life, so why bother trying to raise yourself above mediocrity?

And this is one of the major problems with society today.

Originally posted by theron dunn
Folks that criticize masons do so for a couple of reasons:

Skepticism. they think that since their lives are what they are that no one else can make a change

Small spirits... they can't stand it that someone might be making themselves better and want to drag them back into the muck in which they live. These are the same folks that criticize christians for being "holier than thou".

fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of being rejected...

Theron, that is very true of people thoughts on Masonry and any other group that tries to truly enlighten folks.

It is so nice to hear how you both bettered yourself through Masonry.

Concerning Manly Palmer Hall:

He wrote "Lost Keys of Freemasonry" in 1923, when he was 21 years old. He became a Mason in 1953, 30 years after the book was written.

I think Alex's point was not that Hall gave a bad view of the Fraternity; only that, at the time, he was a non-Mason and had no personal experience in the Fraternity. Hall himself freely admits this in his preface in the 1972 printing, where he states that, when he wrote the book, the only knowledge he had of Freemasonry was that which he received from books in his local public library.

"Lost Keys" is a very interesting and entertaining book, very insightful for a young man of barely 21.

Fiat Lvx.