The Problem with Utopia: Why Capitalism is our only option

It doesn't matter what system you have; Be it a Kingdom, military rule, capitalism, socialism and/or the fantasy of communism or utopia. Humans are greedy. It's in our nature. You can't blame capitalism for the world's problems. Blame human greed, because human greed was around much longer than any political system!!!

Competition and hence greed arose as early as humanity itself. We are the only species that can think as well as driven by our instincts. If one tribe got more food one day, than your tribe would want to get more food than them the next day. It makes us feel good to beat people, like in that way. That one tribe could have shared it with your tribe but, they feel that you don't deserve it, because you didn't work for it.

Why the competition? Power and Greed! Sure you all need food in your tribe to survive, but you would want to be in the best, biggest, strongest, and smartest tribe and you show that by the amount of food you have or in our case now stuff. As long as there is stuff to be acquired there will always be means of acquiring said stuff, and ppl will want more stuff!

Hence why our society is NOT a utopia and shares everything with everybody. This is also the main reason why Socialism can never work the way most ppl dream about.

Communism will never happen because humans are greedy and they will never learn how to share anything equally including ideas. That is also the reason why the richest men in the world really control everything. Not the people!

Socialism has been tried and is failing right before our eyes. USSR completely collapsed and China is on the verge of collapse or complete gov't change.

Indeed, America has helped brainwash certain people about how 'evil' these two ideals are. Especially in the previous generation when it was all out attacking communists left and right and anybody who looked at you suspiciously was a communist. It's pretty much the same way majority of Americans are treating Arabs people today. As much as I hate to admit it, that's prejudice, and America shouldn't condone it. But this is a touchy topic because of what happened on 9/11 and since!

These are great ideals but sadly will never spread throughout the world, partially due to America's police force and partially because of the fact that humanity is just not wired that way.

I don't believe that capitalism is the reason for the worries of the world. It's the Wall Streeters and the rich families of the world that really control it. Even if somehow our society became socialists or communists the rich would still rule the world, because it would be the rich that set the system up. Technology would still be around even without capitalism, but its likely that the everyday citizen wouldn't have access to it. Think about the countries like Libya (which combines socialism and islamic traditions) and where Gaddafi has complete control over the entire technological community. I don't think that's soo much better than our system.

Every year the most powerful people in the world get together to talk about what they are going to do inside their own companies, private wars, economic policies, and what they will force the gov't to do. Every four years companies and the rich families invest in presidential campaigns. If you lack their support you will likely not make it to the primaries. This is why we see major GOP candidates dropping out of the race already. Then the most powerful corporations go on an all out spending spree after the nominees are elected and they invest, invest, invest. Oh yea and there have been too many elections where there appears to be some type of mysterious lost votes that can never be found and a very close call!!!!

I'm not talking about lowly politicians and random CEOs here. I am talking about the old money families who made their fortunes in the industrial era, and whom now control our very world behind closed doors: the Rockefellers, Morgans, Rothchilds, Fords, Vanderbuilts, Du Ponts, and the Lehmans among a select few others like Sudai kings, royal princes and princesses, the royal British family, and a few celebrities. Maybe some tech guys are headed up there now. These people control the world's money and money controls the world!

I'm sorry but the way most people want socialism to work, will never happen because the rich control everything. That wasn't brought on by capitalism, that was brought on by pure human greed. Even if we were to go back in time and become, communists or socialists, there would still be greed among those high profile rich families as I stated before. And also, would you rather be under Stalin's rule? Or Maybe even Hitler's? Most of the rich families in the world invested in Hitler's One World Government when they tried to set it up. America however, fought back along with a few others.

Even the world socialist movement has realized that their system would eventually become overrun with greed and consumerism/mechanization. "Such a system would almost inevitability lead to capital accumulation and profit making—the definitive features of capitalism." (www.worldsocialism.org...)

If the world was socialist and communist we wouldn't even have purchasing power because the gov't would tell us what to buy/need to survive and you couldn't buy or own anything else. The rich would still have everything they have because they are rich and pretty much above the political systems they put into place.

Other counties in the world like China, EU, Libya, Egypt are struggling to keep there systems in place just like the US. No one's system is the best, but I think Capitalism is a little bit better than the others. It has worked ok-ish for the countries that have adapted it. Certainly lasted longer than Russia's USSR, China's communism, and Hitler's One World Government. The EU is now struggling as well.

It's the main reason world peace is a silly concept. In this state, world peace cannot be achieved because there will always be those ppl who want more stuff! Maybe with a smaller population, more brainwashing drugs and technologies, and a one world gov't system socialism will work well, but that is not what we have on this world, and it won't happen (if ever) for a very long time.

At some point in the future we could get a world gov't of some type (2050?) but it won't really be a world gov't, because there will always be the 'terrorists' and the rebels.

Considering this, lets go back to the so-called communist utopia that ppl dream the world will be one day. If somebody produces 500 items who decides who gets those 500 items first? When do they get them? Why do these people get them first and not me? Are they better than me? Do they have more power? You couldn't distribute it to all the people all at once. Could you? And if so why? Why do these people deserve your product first? Why should I even make it for them? What are they giving me? and Why would that help me? Who will decide what gets traded for what? See what happens without money? Laziness and confusion.

There are sooo many questions for a utopia society like this to set up that it seems nearly impossible and it makes perfect sense as to why our society evolved the way it did. Because frankly there could be no other alternative.


This coming July 4th marks the anniversary that America's so-called evil capitalist society has been around for 235 years!!!! For awhile there we were the strongest Nation in the world, and we still are one of the strongest nations in the world. Live with it! Because you can't go back in time and change the past to make the world socialist, something that couldn't possibly happen anyway.

Debunked in the very first sentence ...

Humans are greedy. It's in our nature.

You are trained to believe this ...in an abundant society there would be no greed.

quoting myself out of another thread

During the 1960 - 1970 french researchers studied a tribe called the khune which were supposed to be the most conservative tribe on earth. They had lived their lives without any change approximately 40.000 years long. Their settlement was build in a circle with the entrance to the middle so anyone could watch into the tend of the others. If a hunter made a big catch they cooked the meat in front of the tend and anybody was invited to eat with them.

10 years after the nation of Nigeria started trading with the tribe of the khune and they had contact mith money the society had changed very much. The entrance to any tend was now facing away from the center so nobody could look into into the others tend, when someone made a big catch they would now cook it in the tend and they also didn´t share anything with their tribe members anymore.

I think this is also a good example to debunk anyone saying that there will always be greed because it is inherent with the human species and survival of the fittest ...it isn´t. Money is the root of all evil

Yup I got this far also

"Humans are greedy. It's in our nature".

As a psychology student I believe in nurture and conditioning. If we wernt fed lies and untruths by the media and the global corporations who knows what type of society we would live in.

Unregulated capitalism devolves into monopolies and, inevitably, into fascism. Capitalism is an anything goes system to climb to the top of the profit ladder while stepping, mercilessly, on the heads of competitors. Ethics are scoffed at since the bottom line is what deserves praise in this system. So, if you start with capitalism it is just a matter of time for the regulators to be paid off by the market thus ensuring its climb to the top. Fascism is the marriage between government and corporations. Remind you of any countries out there that embraced capitalism with an almost religious fervor and ended in the iron grip of the multinationals?

reply to post by AnnoyingOrangeX


That tribe was going to collapse eventually anyway. It was small then, but it would have eventually gotten bigger. Bigger makes that type of system harder to control.

reply to post by Snoopy1978


And it couldn't have happened any other way. Cavemen did the same thing with competition and greed when food supply was low.

obviously there are many market failures that are welfare-destructive. therefore pure capitialism is inferior to milder forms of capitalism (i.e. government intervention is often required). the main problem with central planning has always been the information deficit and lack of processing capacities. i could imagine that in the future, with enough advancements in artificial intelligence, central planning could be superior to capitalism.

Originally posted by jjf3rd77
reply to post by AnnoyingOrangeX

 

That tribe was going to collapse eventually anyway. It was small then, but it would have eventually gotten bigger. Bigger makes that type of system harder to control.

yea sure... they survived 40.000 years so their collapse would have been imminent eventualy?! oO

Originally posted by jjf3rd77
reply to post by Snoopy1978

 

And it couldn't have happened any other way. Cavemen did the same thing with competition and greed when food supply was low.

Proof and source please. Althrough survival of the fittest before communities where built is understandable, althrough when we became more civilised as stated by AnnoyingOrangeX we shared out winnings but money sunk that idea in favour of capitalism.

you cannot call this mutant were in pure capitalism, in all sense of the word were in a "coma" or "vegetable" market, our currency has stood as reserve for so long and given us first rights to so many goods that it seems the only thing america is good for now is corn, weapons and frozen foods. if this were a pure capitalism we would have taken the hit long ago, the old corporations would have died off and new ones would have emerged, the board members of the most major companies have managed to bribe our government collectively to keep from taking the hit and losing the boon they had handed to them without effort. most of these men cant dream of having to stand on theire own two feet, the college education they received and the references they have are enough in their eyes. once we take the hits, the natural flow of capitalism will emerge again with the destruction of the big and the flourishing of the small! again, really after meeting so many i can conclude that 1 in 10 people who accept a job in the corporate field were meant to be managers and leaders, the rest are simply hyped on hand outs, lazy and totally convinced they are an upper echelon type personality. these are the type of people pure capitalism weeds out over time, the ones who work and actually care, about the people working for them will find another way, wile the lazy will sit and sit until they finally get up and get in the dirt pit digging with the rest of us.

reply to post by AnnoyingOrangeX


I'd love some sources on that. That's an interesting story.

Aristotle thought irrational greed made man one of the worst of animals. A life spent searching for pleasure, unlimited acquisition and the pride of power over others revealed an insensitive wicked nature that had to be overcome through the active pursuit of a contemplative life...not much change in behavior in over 2000 yrs.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


The name of the documentary is "in what we trust" but unfortunately was removed from youtube ( I watched it in german where its name is "der schein trügt")

The name of the guy who tells the story of this tribe is called "Bernard Lietaer".

This is the clip with german translation (he speaks english in the background so maybe you can ignore the german xD) ...I can not find an english original.

www.youtube.com...

I hope this helps anyway.


reply to post by ironbutterflyrusted

keyword ... irrational

reply to post by jjf3rd77


I'm with all the clever posters who say it's the monetary system at fault, not human nature.
One day (very soon by the looks of it), we'll get to put this to the test on a global scale.
I'm very excited

reply to post by AnnoyingOrangeX


Thank you.

I'll see if I can find an English version of the documentary somewhere.

Thousands of years of egalitarian societies prove the Op wrong. Greed threatened survival therefore greed was stamped out.

Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Considering this, lets go back to the so-called communist utopia that ppl dream the world will be one day. If somebody produces 500 items who decides who gets those 500 items first? When do they get them? Why do these people get them first and not me? Are they better than me? Do they have more power? You couldn't distribute it to all the people all at once. Could you? And if so why? Why do these people deserve your product first? Why should I even make it for them? What are they giving me? and Why would that help me? Who will decide what gets traded for what? See what happens without money? Laziness and confusion.

If the things that are needed to support a full life are created by the community for the community, is this not workable.?

Obviously a lot of things would have to go, variety replaced by reliability, functionality etc

It is not so much that out inherent nature is greedy as in the biological imperatives of our 'selfiish genes' - but that it is the focus of our biological bodies

Truth is we are like onions consisting of many layers, physical.biological.astral(emotional), mental (ethical) etc each internested layer has its own focus,its own currency and values.

The biological focus wants to spread its genes full stop! - it has billions of yrs of experience at controlling you via chemicals realeased straight into your bloodstream. sex, food, territory fighting fleeing dominance etc might is right and the law ofthe jungle.


The next control locus is a persons social identity - where the overiding imperatives are conformity, approval, repectability ect. - those who fail to get this identity to control the biological imperatives are called 'criminals' - those whose social identity acieves complete dominance are ........heroes - ie like running into a burning building to save a child.

I could go on down the list ..........but then it would lead you to some unnaceptable/forbidden truths.

It is not so much that out inherent nature is greedy as in the biological imperatives of our 'selfiish genes' - but that it is the focus of our biological bodies

Truth is we are like onions consisting of many layers, physical.biological.astral(emotional), mental (ethical) etc each internested layer has its own focus,its own currency and values.

The biological focus wants to spread its genes full stop! - it has billions of yrs of experience at controlling you via chemicals realeased straight into your bloodstream. sex, food, territory fighting fleeing dominance etc might is right and the law ofthe jungle.


The next control locus is a persons social identity - where the overiding imperatives are conformity, approval, repectability ect. - those who fail to get this identity to control the biological imperatives are called 'criminals' - those whose social identity acieves complete dominance are ........heroes - ie like running into a burning building to save a child.

I could go on down the list ..........but then it would lead you to some unnaceptable/forbidden truths.

reply to post by ironbutterflyrusted


I honestly don't think so. Because as I mentioned in my post there will always be those competitors. Those who will want more just to have more. As long as others have stuff, some people will want more stuff, even without money. Basic human needs turn into greed once that need is already fulfilled.