Germany being egotistical

I see so many people saying "good for them" to their refusal to help carry the burden of saving Greece, and I am confused!!

Both Germany and France were set to carry as much burden, but we didn't hear from the french complaining, that is the only reason people were under the impression that German would carry the bulk. Now Germany is refusing and that puts France in trouble.

My problem with this is that when these countries decided to have the euro, they knew they were joining together and takin a risk that if one or more countries in that collective needed help, we'd be obligated to support them. The good part of that is that it ensured us that we'd have that help if we struggled, as well as the other obvious perks.

It is just like if you move to a country and want roads, water systems, schools, prisons and police/military protection from that collective, but then say you don't want to pay taxes! "I want the benefits of this collective, but not the responsibilities!"

You see it in kids who want to stay at home, have their room, food, support and protection of the family, but don't want to do chores with the family, or give that same support to a family member that they themself expect. Or an adult that has children, forms a family, but doesn't want to put in the effort to raise and aid the members of that family. It is about personal responsibility and integrity.

The french have a culture which understands better the aspects of collectivity in this way, and cannot fathom backing out of the "one for all and all for one" once they have made the decision to join it. So the people haven't complained. I do not understand how so many can like and support the behavior of making a choice, then backing out on it later when the going gets rough, finding that admirable???

When the USA was genociding the Indians,treaties were broken before the ink was even dry.Obviously,the Germans want something out of the whole EU thing than what they publicly proclaim.Is the idea of Germany wanting to dominate Europe lock stock and barrel sound so far-fetched?I am an American living in Switzerland,and I understand why they want no direct involvment in the EU.Can you blame them?

Given how well the debauched Euro has served German exports I have to wonder why they are throwing a hissy fit! but then again while all these arguments carry on it ensures the Euro stays weak which benefit German exports time and time again..


I have long wondered what would it show if we compared the cost of of these bailouts to the profit made in exports from a weak Euro.. I suspect for Germany they would still be in a plus but I do think it a risky game to play.

Germany being Egoistical! They only started two world wars. Germany is just one big ego, two defeats isn't enough for them! They think they rule the roost in Europe but im sure the British have news for them.

reply to post by JohnLennon

British have news for them

gettin looted by their "own" people, having hardcore socio-economic problems, no students, extraordinary crime rates...

same with france...and parts of the netherlands/belgium...in norway a guy just bombed the capitol because of these developments...

all are in heavy dept, noone has a working finance system, health care is not working/doesn't exist...riots in all countrys...

EXCEPT GERMANY...

(no brownnosing, just facts...and if it gets ugly in germany - you know what happend 2 times and for hundrets of years before in europe (in times where america was #ing not EXISTING!!!! - mr artificial superpower created by europe just as a life-stock to produce hardcore brainwahsed soldiers becuase germans/europeans would never ever went so often to war for stupid/not a real one just proving dominance and catching some resources reasons like americans do...they are the pawns...)

Originally posted by Hessdalen
gettin looted by their "own" people, having hardcore socio-economic problems, no students, extraordinary crime rates...

same with france...and parts of the netherlands/belgium...in norway a guy just bombed the capitol because of these developments...

all are in heavy dept, noone has a working finance system, health care is not working/doesn't exist...riots in all countrys...

EXCEPT GERMANY...

Well, I wouldn't agree with you on all that, I don't see the same problems happening here in France......

.....but that being besides the point I won't engage in it. But I ask you- why didn't Germany choose to remain out of the EU? Or at least not join in the european market? Why did they choose to share the same currency with these other countries? If they wanted to stay out of possible messes other countries get themself into, why didn't they do like Switzerland?

I get the gripe, the french too, being a pretty productive, stable country relatively speaking (right on par with Germany) really struggled with the decision, knowing that would bind us together with less productive and less successful countries...... and eventually they decided to take the risk and join accepting that interdependance it would create.


Did Germany just not think ahead to all that choice would entail???
If you are German, were the people around you discussing and debating that issue, thinking about it before it was decided? (with the Maastrich treaty, then around 1998, with the creation of the euro)

Or did they agree to all with awareness before and just "change their mind" later?

I guess I should be precise on what my concern is with this issue-

I am not so much interested in being a moral preacher to the germans, as I am in understanding two things-

The German point of view, (which from the outside seems very self contradictory, but perhaps there's an angle I am not seeing...?)

But also, I was most struck by my own compatriots attitude towards their choices!

I mean, different cultures have different values- for example, no one in France is bitching about the Germans being bad team players....they don't get into moralizing others outside their own. They kinda accept human weakness, appetite, and screw ups as natural in a way I, a "puritan american" as they say, do not as much.
In the american culture, we have developed a value of ethic which is very centered on the individual, and self discipline- thigns like integrity being valued. Your word matters, even more than what the herd wants you to do. You said you'd do something? You should do it. You accepted a role of responsibility, then you should strive to fulfil it's duties. If you don't think you can, you refuse to take the position.

That is not to say we always succeed in living up to these values! Only that when we fail to do so, we see them as "failures" and acknowledge them as such. (for example, many american will admit that we did with the native americans was a failure, something that was not good to do. We hope to do better in future and not replay the same errors)

So to see other americans cheering on or supporting a country which accepts willingly to join such a joint venture, and then back out on it when it gets rough, makes me wonder what is going on in their heads?
Do they now believe that a persons word and the promises they make, the responsibilities they accept then run out on, is good to do? Has my countries culture changed that radically in so few years??

Originally posted by JohnLennon
Germany being Egoistical! They only started two world wars. Germany is just one big ego, two defeats isn't enough for them! They think they rule the roost in Europe but im sure the British have news for them.

Okay, well... first of all... I've got to say that the above statement is utterly ridiculous. In what way does the history of a country have anything to do with any current societal structure? That's like saying because America used to keep slaves, that all these "equal rights" these days really piss them off. Secondly, Germany DOES rule the roost in Europe. Their economy is leagues ahead of anyone else in Europe at this point. That would include Britain. For a site that declares "Deny Ignorance" as their motto, this infantile bashing of a great nation because of their past is insulting.

Maybe this whole Euro debt problem is part of the German 4th reich plan to emerge?

Suck every European country into the Euro, guide them into debt and then buy them all out under the control of a Greater Germany!

Love em or hate the Germans they are a smart people and know a thing or two about economics.

If it wasnt for the World War they would have conquered Europe through economic means a long time ago.

They are a economic superpower in waiting in my opinion.

It's ironic that Germany being the bad guy in two world wars,,they are now expected to save Europe,, guess it could be because of the Panzer guy in the vatican,,after they have a bit of change collected from over the years,,
But this time North America looks like it needs its own Superman,,oh ya

There is no more Superman


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cb0c2e4e0f87.jpg[/atsimg]

"It's not about how many times you get knocked down, but about how many times you get back up" -Rocky

Listen folks, we are talking about a country who has time and time again rose from the ashes into prosperity. Through the unrelenting belief of the German people in their country and in themselves, they have overcome political persecution, econmoic despair and have once again emerged as a country unwilling to accept the terms that life has given them through innovation and the inhert belief that it is a human right to expect better from yourself. No one has the right to tell someone how to spend their money that they have earned by the sweat of their brow. And let ye without sin cast the first stone. So before we condemn Germany for ensuring their own self-preservation, take a step back and realize that the worst thing that Germany could do, is to deny the countries of Europe the opportunity to save themselves first.

reply to post by nickendres


I just wonder why they didn't do like Switzerland then? If one wants to be independant, shouldn't they refuse the benefits of interdependance along with the responsibilities?
I actually see nothing wrong with choosing to stay out of such entanglements and just take care of yourself, that, along with the choice to join forces and make common markets and communities, are BOTH valid choices!
But I don't understand choosing to join, then complaining about not wanting to be part of it?

I think there are some fundamental flaws in some of the views expressed in this thread. The first being, that the whole situation was caused by Greece lying and frauding their way into the Euro-zone, putting the economy of all of Europe at risk. They have still not felt any meaningful repercussions to that by the way. This all creates an athmosphere where it is really difficult to justify no-holds-barred help in fron of your own populace.

The second being the wrong assertion that Germany would deny help. In fact, Germany has carried the lions share of the helps that have flown so far. That Germany insists now that Greece be consequent and thorough with their renovation of finances is not unwillingness to spend; it is a necessity to put pressure on Greece to kick out the heritage of decades of criminal mismanagement.

In fact Bluesma, your repeatedly stated confusion about why Germany "joined the club but wouldnt be willing to do their share" is a more than a bit ignorant about the past of money flow within the EU. Germany has been the "go-to guy" for state aids for decades and has given willingly; just look at who was called to drag the EU out of the recent financial crisis. The problem with the current crisis is that there are several Eurozone nations in an almost hopeless situation, all of them stricken by years of reckless spending, and Greece is the worst offender of them. As has been mentioned, yes, a weak Euro is good for the german export economy. But just as important for an exporter natio is currency stability. and this is put at risk by mindlessly agreeing to every state aid plan.

As a third point, to all the people invoking the 4th Reich or other pipe dreams concerning a Teutonic-Vatican conspiracy : go out, fresh air is good for you.

reply to post by Bluesma


Didn't the EU start strictly as a trade agreement? Why are they trying to consolidate political power over the individual nations?

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Didn't the EU start strictly as a trade agreement?

No it didnt. The roots of the EU are in bilateral economic contracts between France and Germany from shortly after the war. Even then, there was a strong political component in them. Everyone who states otherwise, as a means to criticize the current political integration, either reneges this fact, or is simply ignorant of it.