CHINA will fall with us. The whole world is bound to fall.

Imo Chinas Bubble is by far toooooooooo big,
China is like a Film-Studio in Hollywood,
when you see the big and new Towns like Shanghai, Beijing or Hong Kong
you see beautiful well dressed People, new Cars and new sparkling Frontages
but everything is very poorly made like we know from a 1 Dollar Shop!

More than 80% of Chinas Citizens still living in a rural Area
wit6hout running Water or Sewer System,
the Energy is produced by old Factories which pollute everyone and everything!

Today the Chinese People do not even have enough Wood
to build urgently needed new Houses!

People with a proper Technique and educated skilled Workers
do not need to fear the Dragon

china will stomp all over our fat inefficient asses

we'll be still filling in forms to get permission to defend ourselves whilst they drop the bomb!

So, lets see :

US, Canada, Australia, Japan and EU (not adding many more countryes that will be affected if US economy falls)

Those above have a population of about 800 million people, which, are ALL customers (even the newborns and kids have almost what they need from their parents).

Those 800 million customers CAN SPEND every month, on diferent products, electronics, clothes, shoes, etc.
between 50 and 500 $ (depending on how whealthy they are).

NOW, in Africa , South America and Asia (what is actually left when taking aside the above US, Canada, Australia, Japan and EU) have about 5 billion people, which , for the sake of having a balanced view , we can assume ALL are also customers (but we all know the sheer powerty in Africa and South America).

All those 4 billions BARELY MAKE enough money to survive !!! They might CAN spend 1-5 $.

800 million x 200 $ medium = 1600 TRILLION $ market for w/e you want : electronics, clothes, shoes versus
4 billion x 5 $ = 20 billion $ market.

NOW, if west colapses, and reduce their consuming by ONLY 10%, that will be a 160 TRILLION LESS sales on the markets above (electronics, clothes, shoes).

And since 80 #ING % of China revenues are from WESTERN sales...they will #ING go down hard time if we go.
You think what ? China will overnight make 2 billion africans and south americans RICH, so they can be on par with west?

You, China suporters are dreaming.
Wake up. 1600 trillion vs 20 billion. West buying power is 800 times BIGGER then the rest of the world.

In order for China to survive a west collapse, they need a #ing magician to make africans rich overnight.


Jeez...blind ppl who beleive China is a power...

Edit : i left aside 1 billion chinese because they have 80% dead poor peasants, who don't make any money, and the rest 200 million in urban areas (with 50 million poor workers) can maybe spend 20 $...the 4 billion more doesn't even need to be thrown in the above calculation.
We know how poor the chinese ppl are.

reply to post by Recollector


You are missing one very important fact about money, China and the rest of the world has printing presses as well. The US does not have a monopoly on the creation on the money, only US dollars.

Originally posted by kwakakev
reply to post by Recollector

 

You are missing one very important fact about money, China and the rest of the world has printing presses as well. The US does not have a monopoly on the creation on the money, only US dollars.

Printing a lot of it makes it worth less.

Yen, yuan, dollars, rupees, marks or pounds matters not.

reply to post by butcherguy

Printing a lot of it makes it worth less. Yen, yuan, dollars, rupees, marks or pounds matters not.

Correct, it is a form of taxation through inflation. There is only so much resources in a nation, wither you want to use a number with 5, 10 or 20 zeros to represent this does not change the worth of the nation. While those who print it get a quick little bonus, society suffers as it needs to adapt to the change of currency value. If this happens too fast you get hyper inflation and trading grinds to a halt as it cannot keep up with the declining value of the currency.

reply to post by kwakakev
I agree in entirety with your post, a star on it.

What is troubling for me is that I believe that this is the route that will be taken, printing more money around the world, and the entire globe will suffer. The little people, anyway.

reply to post by butcherguy

What is troubling for me is that I believe that this is the route that will be taken, printing more money around the world, and the entire globe will suffer. The little people, anyway.

In structured society the little people have always suffered, sometimes more than others. The only way to escape it is to find a remote indigenous tribe and live with them where the decision making process is a lot more community orientated.

On a good note the global economy is coming under more review with the G20 taking policy control of the IMF away from the CFR. There is still a lot more that does need to be addressed to sort out many of the conflicts and inconsistencies in the global economy but with more minds on the problem and in control of this important institution it is a good start.

The process of printing more money is one that has been established for some time, just look at what a dollar would have bought when you where a kid or with your parents and grandparents. This devaluation over time is all due to printing money. When the government says it will not bring in any new taxation, but prints more money they are lying, it is just the method of collection is different as the cost is distributed throughout all of the economy.

There are a lot of problems that do need to be addressed to get the global economy into a fair shape. History also shows that leaders and systems that do fail in there job are eventually removed one way or another.

reply to post by Recollector

You, China suporters are dreaming.

You are using outdated models to calculate whatever it is you are calculating.

Wake up. 1600 trillion vs 20 billion.

You don't understand what is outdated about your way of calculating huh? Allow me to explain:

Those 1600 trillions do not evaporate, they shift. In just ten years the number you used will be different, in twenty years even more so...and on and on. First things first though; influence and power. See if you can spot it in your daily life. Other than that, your way of observing something and calculating that something are outdated. You're viewing it from a standing point of view - not dynamic.

West buying power is 800 times BIGGER then the rest of the world.

Because the West siphons that buying power by pretty much robbing the other parts of the world from their resources. Puppet governments, organized coupes, economic hit men...you name it.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Zamini
I seem to remember a list of European countries that tried that in the 1800 and 1900's in Africa. It apparently is not worth the effort or money.

It is. China is builiding up Africa not for the benefit of Africans (well, that, too) but primarily for itself.

Pay the local chief to have his minions work the mines for the mineral wealth that is there, that's the way to do it.

Either way, it will work.

Originally posted by Human0815
People with a proper Technique and educated skilled Workers
do not need to fear the Dragon

You mean the UAW?

reply to post by Recollector


Who told you the entire Western world will collapse? EU still has German engineering prowess to fall back on. Canada and Australia are very rich in resources. Poor America has nothing but self-entitled, whining fatasses. Canada should tighten its borders soon.

Imma go with the B.I.B.L.E. version and say when the U.S. is destroyed, the whole world will mourn and wonder what they did to "her"! Sure, we can bash the U.S. about their economic policies, foreign policies, etc, etc...but she has produced some positive things, as well. Most of what we enjoy today...came from the U.S., like THE INTERNET; which was created BY the military, FOR the military!

Also, America has given us some pretty good entertainment like: Santa, the Easter Bunny, Mickey Mouse, Sponge Bob; then we have sports, and music, movies; amusement parks, theatres; and really, a spirit of EXCELLENCE. It's just too bad the people in America have forgotten what it took, to get some of the things, they have. They act like it's SUPPOSED to be that way. They act like they deserve the best, at the cost of someone else! And that's just NOT the case!

Yeah sure, when a disaster strikes another country, America is one of the 1st countries to jump in and help, or dig into their pockets to contribute; and, at the same time, will FORCE and IMPOSE their will, on any country that doesn't play by their rules; which are usually ONE-SIDED. This is what other nations don't like about the good ole USofA! What's good for the goose, the gander don't like!

Originally posted by aaronez
reply to post by orkson

 

Oh really? Do you think the Chinese came down in the last shower? Their culture out ranks yours by about 4000 years. So don't get beyond your station. And you think China needs the good old U S or A. for its products. Think again.

Their people come from a culture that's been around for thousands of years, but modern day powerhouse China is NOT a 4000 year old country. Their current government and economy is what, 70 years old tops? They rely on the west. This is not a superiority complex or arrogance, this is fact. The US is not the only place failing, it's the ENTIRE WEST. Europe is crumbling as well. It's only a matter of time.

Much of China's growth is FAKE. They build cities that NOBODY lives in. It's a facade just like the west's is. WE give them a huge customer base, WE give them technology. Without the west, China will hurt. Fall apart? Probably not, but they are in no way whatsoever immune to the storm that is coming.

Originally posted by Zamini

Did I say China only? No. In fact, North Korea seems to be a new candidate.

Seriously? North Korea? Their GDP is like 40 billion. California's economy is a little under 2 TRILLION. North Korea could spend every penny they have on China and it wouldn't even be a drop in the bucket. You're going to have to try harder than that.

Originally posted by Zamini

Could that be because the Western nations now hold most wealth? I think it is. So what happens when that wealth shifts? Markets shift.

Yes, that is why. But wealth is not being shifted, it's being DESTROYED and absorbed by a small number of people. Where on earth is there a market big enough, or with enough potential to replace the US and Europe? Nowhere.

Originally posted by SyphonX
China will not "collapse along with the US".

Just because China's business is selling cheap goods to the US, doesn't mean they will fall because they can't sell anymore. People seem to forget that China is hugely self-sufficient, and produces virtually everything it needs. They simply start producing for themselves and other countries.

Again, what other countries? With a global economy comes global issues. The US and Europe are both collapsing. China can never maintain their growth without the US and Europe. I'm sure they can make everything they need themselves, but they still need to export. The US became wealthy and powerful because it was a huge producing nation. It exported tons of goods all over the world, and got rich because of it. That's the same thing China did. The US stopped being a production powerhouse, and now we are failing. China will be forced to stop producing when nobody buys their goods, and will fall as well. There is no market anywhere that could replace the US and Europe's vacuum.

Originally posted by eldard
reply to post by Recollector

 

Who told you the entire Western world will collapse? EU still has German engineering prowess to fall back on. Canada and Australia are very rich in resources. Poor America has nothing but self-entitled, whining fatasses. Canada should tighten its borders soon.

Yeah.... except the US is very rich is resources too.

The US is #3 in oil production.
The US is #1 in natural gas production
The US is #3 in steel production
The US is #1 in timber production
The US is #2 in coal production.

You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

In addition we have a strong tech sector. The issue is our government has systematically removed our ability to be a manufacturing powerhouse as we once were. The will is there, the ability is there, but the system is not allowing it.

If all you want to do is sit there on your computer and insult Americans that's fine, but please go do it in the rant section. And yeah, tighten Canada's borders, because we have ten times the population you do, and most all of Canada's population is on the border. You have pretty much an empty country that could support a much larger population, might as well be selfish and not help your fellow human beings. What a great guy!

Oh yeah, and "self-entitled" really? Like feeling entitled to health care? Last I checked Canada ENTITLES its people to health care. Not so in the US. How does your foot taste?

Originally posted by James1982
Yeah.... except the US is very rich is resources too.

The US is #3 in oil production.
The US is #1 in natural gas production
The US is #3 in steel production
The US is #1 in timber production
The US is #2 in coal production.

Which are not enough for your fatassed citizenry.

might as well be selfish and not help your fellow human beings. What a great guy!

Tell that to Mexicans yearning to live a decent life.

Oh yeah, and "self-entitled" really? Like feeling entitled to health care? Last I checked Canada ENTITLES its people to health care. Not so in the US. How does your foot taste?

edit on 10-8-2011 by James1982 because: (no reason given)

1) I'm not Canadian (but they really should tighten their borders)
2) Canada can afford to give its citizens healthcare, you can't. Not without raising tax rates to 50% and borrowing even more.

reply to post by Zamini


okay China has been able to remain alive for 4000 years because it did not grow more than it needed to which is not how you become #1. So if they do become #1 they will surely fall and crash at some point.

Unless people understand this and send the whole system flying down

Originally posted by Doublemint
reply to post by Zamini

 

okay China has been able to remain alive for 4000 years because it did not grow more than it needed to which is not how you become #1. So if they do become #1 they will surely fall and crash at some point.

And we'd all be dead by then.

reply to post by Doublemint

okay China has been able to remain alive for 4000 years because it did not grow more than it needed to which is not how you become #1.

I don't believe you are familiar with their history of conquest are you?

So if they do become #1 they will surely fall and crash at some point.

It depends on how they conduct themselves. If they conduct themselves as superiors towards other people of this planet then they will surely crumble. If they however choose to conduct themselves in an exemplary way, not oppressing not secretly killing people - then their empire will stand until the end of time.

Simple fact of the matter is, empires come and go. America has been the biggest superpower for years now, and most of the american people alive now have not had it any other way. People who don't believe that China will be the next superpower are foolish. Its funny that since the news came out that America has benn downgraded, we have seen more and more threads made by scared people who can't handle the fact that America is falling fast, and that China (a communist country) we be the next super-power.

You will get people posted BS like most of the Chinese are starving, which is complete BS. How do i know this, well, its because half my family are Chinese, i lived in China for two years, and travelled around China.

You could say my wife was from a poor family, but in no way did they ever go without food, shelter, or water. Im not saying that this does not happen in China, but people are going over the top.

I remember having a debate with someone who did not believe that many westerners lived in China. Again, that is complete BS. People are making up crap to make China look bad, just because they are scared, and don't like the fact that they are losing the grip on their super power status.