The Descent into the Bottomless Pit

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

anyway that chapter 3 seems to speak of two comings and that last part seemed strange because he's speaking to the people shut inside his house, so ancient technology, bullhorn?

remember Jesus/Isaiah say does'nt cry out and no hearing voice in the streets

the son of man seems clear enough when considering Stephen looking to the heavens before being stoned makes me think of the Jerusalem above or we who are many make up one body

I'm working on this, I thought I would let you know that I am. It takes me a bit to see what you are referring to and what you are getting at. For right now, I think what pthena is talking about is important. There are differences between different prophets in the OT, and they did not agree with each other. Isaiah did not agree with himself so a lot of Bible scholars think there were three or four people writing under that name.
There is this sort of way of thinking which is the "proof text" method where you just jump from book to book and testament to testament, picking a verse or half a verse, ending up with a long string of these bits and it is supposed to make sense, I know all about it being brought up in a church which practiced it.
The thing that drives people to that is that if you sit there and start reading through a book, it is not satisfying. So, you mix it up a bit to make it interesting. To make the prophecies work to be a predictive instrument, first you have to know what already happened that you want the prophecy to be about, then you use part of a verse, then a few more words, further down the page and two words out of another verse, skip a long way down, use another half a verse, and on and on.
They weren't written to be divination instruments. They used words to create mental pictures to illustrate a story to guide the listener to be given hope and motivation to be able to experience these things. That would be one form of prophecy. A not so good of one might be what pthena was saying, that it was just a general condemnation with no hope and nothing to be motivated to do. As if people were to be frozen in fear, just so they would not even attempt anything to avoid the coming disaster.
That would have been bad for the people who had to live it. We who are far removed (or at least we like to think we are) can imagine we can better appreciate salvation when we see how bad it was for those other people. I don't think God works that way. Destroy a million people to make a point.

reply to post by pthena

Why is it then that all we end up with is three verifiable forgeries, namely I & II Timothy and Titus?

Right, the missing letters. Fundamentalist believe that God protected the Bible from tampering,
I suppose if you define the Bible as coming about in sixteen hundred and something. A lot of stuff was burnt including the Christians setting fire to the Library of Alexandria.
The anti-god was hard at work keeping up his reputation.

reply to post by jmdewey60


that is still something not many these days comprehend I suspect, in most instances specially in the NT it is dealing with dieing to the flesh/law/self, like "by his death all died""as in Adam all" do -our flesh, I don't see God favoring one above another any longer except whatever one a newborn may be and the parents regardless, though some personally do who cares as long as they are'nt a threat to their neighbor, my daughters have some kind of Hebrew/Jewish in them that have yet to figure out is the best definition, and definately a Hebrew or Jewish woman was relative to when I heard the voice, but they also have Apache, Cherokee, German, African, Polish, Spanish, Irish, Italian, Swedish etc., which race or ancestor should I stand for?

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

do you, pthena or whoever know any history in original writings where YA or Ya used to appear before Yah or Yahweh? or anything relative to YA period? Leo (whats her name) and someone a while back had mentioned something in a thread that really got my attention, just curious and is somewhat related to other languages like Ya'cov or Ya'RuSalem which I see no problem with it's when they say only Yiddish or Greek matters, it's a secret or Jesus means (fill in the blank with a lie) when it becomes an issue

LeoVirgo and pthena used to have a few good conversations. I used to get into it with her before I realized she was essentially right. I used to know people at church who would tell me, "God does not kill people" and no argument could make them change their minds. They were onto something but had no way to prove it. Now we have the internet to find people who agree and know how to explain what it is that they feel.
The YA thing, I would have to check into a bit. I think that the Y and R as in Jerusalem, could mean something since most of the words in Hebrew that have that YR is related to fear.

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

that is still something not many these days comprehend I suspect, in most instances specially in the NT it is dealing with dieing to the flesh/law/self, like "by his death all died""as in Adam all" do -our flesh, I don't see God favoring one above another any longer except whatever one a newborn may be, my daughters have some kind of Hebrew/Jewish in them that have yet to figure out is the best definition, and definately a Hebrew or Jewish woman was relative to when I heard the voice, but they also have Apache, Cherokee, German, African, Polish, Spanish, Irish, Italian, Swedish etc., which ancestor should I stand for in all this racial tension warfare?

Idolatry is how I think about it. People want a god to worship and are not satisfied with one they can't see. They can vicariously worship God through a sacred people. Back in the day, I am sure there were very devout believers in the idols. Feeling an excitement about a supernatural thing gets people going. There is a psychological warfare going on to get people to engage in actual warfare by playing on those feelings. "My God" oh it is so wonderful and it is really my God" as if they own it. "and here is the proof of that God, right here in this holy people, written of in the sacred writings of the very holiest men of God" They get all puffed up with pride that they are so gifted to recognize the godly while others, the backwards people we need to despise and are evil because they do not look at these people and see God", just like the devotees to the idol, they look at to what seems to the un-devout, a mere stone, and see in that carved figure, God. It is the same exact thing and they don't see it as idolatry, instead of a stone idol, they want to erect a stone temple for their sacred holy people of God to bring God to life, like the idolaters of old brought their statues to life.

Just another note. God did have prophets during those times, Jeremiah, Daniel, God is greater than state religion, even if names are used, if God has a name, no one knows it or has ever heard it. About those prophets:

HEB 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

reply to post by Rustami

it's a secret or Jesus means (fill in the blank with a lie) when it becomes an issue

In most languages: (see wikipedia:Jesus) " occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), itself a Hellenisation of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšûă‘).meaning "Yahweh delivers (or rescues)". (hoping the pronunciation shows up.) The first three letters are IES, even in Hebrew it starts YEH, Aramaic YES. I don't see where any language has it as YAH

As far as I can tell, this practice among OT loving Christians of using many Hebrew words is very recent, only a few years. Greek and Aramaic were the two most used languages in the region Jesus lived. It is an unsubstantiated assumption that Jesus was unable to speak Greek.

It was common among Jews seeking to be "ritually pure" to never pollute their clean lips with unholy Greek, clearly a superstitious taboo. Jesus touched people with leprosy(extremely ritually unclean) I doubt that Jesus was afraid of Greek.

Prediction: As time goes by, more and more people will be using Hebrew concoctions as the name Jesus. That is a secret sign (like a secret handshake) that they use to recognize each other as devotees of the OT "god".

Edit To Add: And now that I broached the subject, I can now say what the "gift of tongues" really is.

It was a serious social taboo for anyone to be heard speaking Greek in the "holy city" Jerusalem. Diaspora Jews from the Greek speaking world, remained silent while visiting Jerusalem for religious festivals. On the day of Pentecost Peter stood in Jerusalem and in a loud voice proclaimed Jesus as the Christ IN GREEK, and he was not afraid

reply to post by pthena

I can now say what the "gift of tongues" really is.

It was a serious social taboo for anyone to be heard speaking Greek in the "holy city" Jerusalem. Diaspora Jews from the Greek speaking world, remained silent while visiting Jerusalem for religious festivals. On the day of Pentecost Peter stood in Jerusalem and in a loud voice proclaimed Jesus as the Christ IN GREEK, and he was not afraid

Speaking in unauthorized tongues, then.
That restriction would cut down dramatically on haggling so the merchants of Jerusalem made nice profits.
No wonder they hated Christians. If people followed their lead, profits go down, with all the haggling from the pilgrims, or (worse case) no pilgrims.

reply to post by jmdewey60
More of a social taboo, since speaking in less than a "holy" language in the "holy" city during a "holy" festival would stigmatize one as less than holy.

The "power from the Holy Spirit" then, alleviates the fear of social stigma, even "uncleanness".

On the name of Jesus, Yeshua is the normal way of saying it I believe. An extra syllable seems required, as in: Yahashua in order to make it mean "Yahweh Saves". That H has to get slipped in right after the Y.

I've seen some people use some very long Hebrew strings instead of writing Jesus or Yeshua. Xenophobia, and paranoia makes me think of meanings if translated would be "Yahweh is my only god and savior no matter what person I'm presently using this really long name to talk about"