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The Descent into the Bottomless Pit

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posted on Aug, 8 2011 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
 


The path is quite clear for anyone who choses to read it... you don't need anyone to tell you what is in the bible.
That path is to you, your religion. You can call it something else if you want.


That path is not religion, its simply truth... It requires no following, you either do it or you don't.

The narrow path has nothing to do with orgainized religion, its more common sence then anything... though without the right frame of mind. Its not common sence either...





posted on Aug, 8 2011 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


on that point (aC), would you, jmdewey or whoever say these are distinctly relevant scripts and if so why?


That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him
Ephesians1

when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4

I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Corinthians11

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them
Matthew18

for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Matthew23

the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God
1Timothy1

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians3

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation19

And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Revelation5

And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
Luke20

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Acts7

And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark14


edit on 8-8-2011 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2011 @ 12:56 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



Religion is a farse, always has been, always will be.



AMEN! The only people who love religion are religious people. And the religious people killed the Lord, that should tell you right there they aren't on the right team. Jesus was the most anti-religious person to ever walk the Earth. Every religion is a man-made way to reach out and justify oneself to God. Redemption is exactly opposite, it's God reaching down to man to reconcile them to Himself through His Son.
edit on 9-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2011 @ 03:52 AM
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reply to post by Rustami
 

on that point (aC), would you, jmdewey or whoever say these are distinctly relevant scripts and if so why?
The antichrist? I'm guessing that is your abbreviation for it. It seems to me to be a sort of fairy tail devised to throw people off the real thing we should be looking at.
There is no such thing as a single, individual person who is the culmination of the antichrist spirit.
The verses by Paul in the letters to the Thessalonians is about the Man of Sin. To me, Sin is the enemy. The False Prophet for the Beast of Revelation creates a philosophy that diverts the attention from our duty and calling, to be a holy people and say that there is some other people somewhere whose duty it is to be holy, not Christians. That is the Man of Sin, which is of the true antichrist spirit, who says there is a special people of a covenant (not of the New Covenant by Jesus) who are the chosen, and that Christians are not chosen but are merely the scum of the earth who god will have to spend eternity to ever get to be anything close to being like these special select and loved of God people.
So the deceived, who never really felt like being holy, anyway, become complacent in the fake knowledge that they in particular are never expected, or required to ever be in this lifetime, holy. So they go to watching TV and watching the sinful antics of the characters in the shows and have their inner souls turned into the likes of those they study.


edit on 9-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2011 @ 09:49 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 




That path is not religion, its simply truth... It requires no following, you either do it or you don't.


Could you expand on your "path" to truth. What are your beliefs? (or lack of them?) Are you sure they rest on the path to truth?

Peace.



posted on Aug, 9 2011 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
reply to post by Akragon
 




That path is not religion, its simply truth... It requires no following, you either do it or you don't.


Could you expand on your "path" to truth. What are your beliefs? (or lack of them?) Are you sure they rest on the path to truth?

Peace.


More then happy to...

I must have posted this around these forums over 50 times... but im happy to make it 51


This is the path, defined...

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again

Questions?

feel free...




posted on Aug, 9 2011 @ 07:19 PM
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thanks for the response, yes an abbreviation and agree sin is an enemy but the last enemy (1Corinthians15) to overcome is death and is in direct relation, something that was not known as such until the law (Romans4,7) put in effect by angels (Acts7,Galatians3,Colossians2, Hebrews1,2) then broken then changed (Hebrews7,8) as well as never being given to other races/nations/gentiles (Romans2,Acts15), is not based on faith (Galatians3) and was also 430 years after the promise, so "lovers of self more than God/neighbor"~(Hebrews1) boasting in works of the flesh/law including promoting it as a giver of life is deceptive at least and makes some since to an extent as for the man of it as well as your thread subject-


For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James2

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
John5

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Galatians3

why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Acts3

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Hebrews2

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1John4

for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Roman14


edit on 9-8-2011 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2011 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by Rustami
 

boasting in works of the flesh/law including promoting it as a giver of life is deceptive at least and makes some since to an extent as for the man of it as well as your thread subject-
I think some people confuse works with just being good. That, to me is a deception. To the followers of the Law, there are tons of works to be done every day and they could wind leather straps on their arms and tie these tittle leather boxes on their foreheads and they can go down the street giving alms to the needy. They can put on sacred garments and say blessing to them and kiss them. Just no end of it and these are things they could be proud of and imagine they purify the soul. These things are the works being talked about. Being good is something completely different but some false teachers will tell you that things that actually do purify the soul are merely works and of no value and not necessary. They are necessary and it is required of you to purify yourselves. Revelation is not a story of how people go to heaven to get purified. It is the story of people going to heaven who have already purified themselves.



posted on Aug, 10 2011 @ 09:18 PM
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the only issue I see is that it's impossible to do anything before a thought, which then becomes a question of motivation and whether or not it's acceptable hence a tranformation by renewel of mind or rebirth needed -again Saul had plenty of what he thought was acceptable works that led him down a path very much like the same one as those who professed "we have no king but Kaiser" before becoming Paul, know your not much for script pasting but I'm not much for writing so hopefully these relay some points I especially enjoy


And ye shall know that I am the LORD when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings
Ezekiel20

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews4

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans8

Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
Luke12


edit on 10-8-2011 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 10 2011 @ 09:32 PM
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reply to post by Rustami
 

the only issue I see is that it's impossible to do anything before a thought and again Saul had plenty of what he thought was acceptable works that led him down a path before becoming Paul,

Paul was, according to his own account, blameless, according to the Law.
He gave that up by disowning the Law.
Paul came to the realization that the law was of no affect and relinquished that claim which could not be redeemed for eternal life, and turned to that which could offer that.
That was the New Covenant brought in by Jesus, which did offer eternal life, the old one having passed out of use.
Most likely Saul did good works because of a desire to be good but he most likely did not become good by doing the works of the Law.
That sort of drive for perfection was probably what God valued most, as an attribute of the man who would be the representative of this new religion. A religion founded on the principle of being good.

I will have to take a look at those verses and see what I make of them as being indicative of your thoughts.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 07:54 AM
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reply to post by Rustami
 

I'm not much for writing so hopefully these relay some points I especially enjoy
God would like to see Himself as "The Justifier of Many".
He would like to preside over a court doing judgment on people and giving them a positive verdict as the outcome of these hearings.
God had a roadblock to this goal of having Himself so identified, which was the lack of people who could be given this positive outcome.
In order for God to have his desire satisfied, for being known as "The Justifier of Many", He had to devise a plan to have these people who were justifiable, starting with Jesus.
Through the one came the many and then God has what he wanted as being His name.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 08:54 AM
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I don't know what Christians would make of my religion, but I've written it down recently. It would seem to address motive for doing good ie what is helpful for others, as opposed to merely doing things ritually coded for personal sanctity. That's where this thread seems to be going.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 
I have a problem just convincing people that we should be good.
I am a long way from describing what that means exactly.
I would generally leave that to the individual's conscience.

ETA: the "The Justifier of Many" post is my analysis of Exekial 20 (which Rustami quoted from), by using the words of Paul.
edit on 11-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
I have an extreme reaction against Ezekiel personally. To me he is the liar in the extreme, the font of evil.

He was one of the people responsible for the writing and editing the Torah in its final form, in Babylon. One of his early visions was of "the god" leaving the temple in Jerusalem and sticking with Ezekiel personally in Babylon. He's the one who calls himself by proxy, as if through angels addressing him, as "Son of Man". As a Christian, you know who the Son of Man really is, and it isn't Ezekiel! What then is the Beast which was, now is not, and rises out of the bottomless pit? The book of Ezekiel.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 
I had a negative sort of reaction looking at it last night and could not come up with an explanation for it.
I started by making a bit of a narrow interpretation but realized it was a dead end. I set it aside and went to bed, thinking I would have better insight into it in the morning.
What I felt, then, was to go to the very central redeeming principle which is that ultimately, everything ends up happening for God. That is what I think Ezekiel says. I prefer Paul's take and the OT way of saying it is obsolete, in my opinion.
The thing is, there is this one verse from it that people like. ". . .when I deal with you for the sake of my reputation. . ." so here is how it happens (meaning what I wrote two posts ago), from our point of view, today.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


The thing is, there is this one verse from it that people like. ". . .when I deal with you for the sake of my reputation. . ."

That deals with "the god" wanting to totally obliterate the people in the desert, but refraining, so as to not himself, "the god" end up being the laughing stock before the other gods, as in (to the tune of a playground taunt) "loser, loser, you wanted control of these people, and all you could do was kill them!"

In the Exodus story, Moses had to actually bring this possibility to the attention of "the god",


EX 32:9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."
EX 32:11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, `It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: `I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

It should be obvious that Moses himself is more righteous than "that so called god". That's why the man Moses is called the Mediator, specifically in Hebrews.

When you read Ezekiel you see no chance offered whatsoever for the people in Jerusalem to survive. That's what passes in Ezekiel for "the god" defending the honor of his name. Contrast that with the prophet Jeremiah who was actually giving the advice, which if it had been followed, would have saved the city and its people from destruction. Jeremiah is the real prophet of the real God. Ezekiel and his "god" are destroyers only.

Take the story of Jonah. His concern was for his own reputation. He would rather see a city full of people destroyed than have someone say "Guess you were wrong, huh" The book of Jonah was written by a true prophet pointing out the error of a false prophet and his "god" valuing their own reputation above people's lives. That's the sign of Jonah Jesus referred to, and not the 3 days which someone inserted into the gospel story to distract from the real meaning Jesus intended. Is it shocking that even the words of Jesus have been tampered with?


edit on 11-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 
From the broad perspective you are right.
I gave up on the idea of rationalizing Ezekiel.
I decided to just deal with a detached from context slogan, "You will know that I am the LORD, when I deal with you for my name’s sake and not according to your evil ways and your corrupt practices. . ."



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:24 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
Until you reach the point in which you become physically ill and vomit every time you hear someone say "Yahweh God" or "the LORD God" or "Lord God"(quoting "LORD God") You just won't get it! He is not God! To justify the liar and honor murderer (for the sake of his name), is to turn the world over to the destroyer.

The broad overview of the New Testament is this:

Every book that survives in the Canon was written during the transition phase, from Jesus being the promised Old Testament Messiah for the Old Testament followers to a universal Christ for all, no distinction between Jew or Greek or Male or Female or Barbarian.

If a letter had ever been written by a Gentile Christian(who had never read the OT and never intended to either) to a Gentile congregation (which didn't possess or plan on acquiring a copy of the OT) that letter never survived. All we have are the transitional documents, of which Hebrews is probably the best.

Anytime a teacher showed up and stated, "Oh, by the way, that character in the OT claiming to be God, isn't really God", that teacher was condemned and killed, and anything found written by that teacher was destroyed. Hebrews escaped massive redaction and editing for the simple reason that it wasn't going to be allowed in the Canon. It miraculously slipped in at the last moment. That's the best evidence surviving that "YHWH is only an angel and not God" was being taught in some churches.

Every Orthodox form of Christianity ignores that. That's why Christian Zionism exists today. The heart of Dispensational Theology is that the "god" of the OT is also the God of the New. Therefore, this "god" who never changes established separate covenants for separate time periods. Same "god", different rules. The "Church Dispensation" is grace alone faith alone, and the "Coming, and now appearing Kingdom Age" is all Jew, all law, all animal sacrifice at the temple" with Gentiles serving as donkeys and mules (forbidden hybrid).

Replacement theology replaced the recipients of the promises without replacing the "god" giving them. In a Christian Bible Fundamentalist atmosphere, Replacement theology stands no chance. Ditto for Covenant theology.

The rejection of Yahweh the liar is the beginning of truth.
edit on 11-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 
So if a Christian gives that quote, my proper response is not to rationalize it in New Covenant terms, but to reject it and say something like, "No, that is irrelevant and no good lessons for today can be gained from it, no matter how hard one tries." ?
So, I am actually serving Satan by giving what is essentially a weak response.(no question mark, don't want to be weak here)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 08:13 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


"No, that is irrelevant and no good lessons for today can be gained from it, no matter how hard one tries." ?
So, I am actually serving Satan by giving what is essentially a weak response.(no question mark, don't want to be weak here)

Well, I suppose Paul rationalizing OT scriptures was a big advance over having people killed to protect the honor of the OT "god" and Law. Just seems that in 1900 odd years people could have gotten a little further than that. I guess I actually should let Christians work out their own religion for themselves though.



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