Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

When the Founding Father's founded this nation, they had inherited slavery and most made arrangements to free their slaves, if they owned them at all. When the nation was founded no one else in the world had the right to vote and it was the accepted practice of the day that men held these responsibilities.

The foundation of this nation was a bold move forward into territory that had never been entered and to fault the Founder's for the mores of their time is beyond ignorant, it is arrogant and stupid.

Every free nation on the planet has taken a page from our playbook and don't you forget it!
[edit on 04/8/19 by GradyPhilpott]

Flame hmm? So that would make you a flamer, correct? Are we done being children about this, or is it time for mamma jokes? If we go there I'm gonna win, because I spent 12 weeks with Drill Instructor Staff Sergeant Thomas and you didn't.
So take it easy leatherneck, you aint the only one here who's proven his belief in this country by military service. I figure sense I acquired more back problems than my grandfather has by the time I was 21 while trying to tough it out and do my duty, I might be immune to your apparent assumption that I'm a wild-eyed America hater.

Speaking of "speaking ill of my country", you obviously didn't dwell on my remarks and their meaning before forming your opinion and calling me arrogant and ignorant. If you'll go back you'll notice that I was DEFENDING the right of nations to make unpopular and morally questionable moves- including the atrocities we have undeniably committed against Indians and Blacks, because in the long run the sad truth is that this is how nations are built, and this is how suffering is prevented in the long term. Yeah, America's playbook works. Just remember that we didn't write most of it, and it includes some things that you would probably be ashamed of.


Now arrogant I am, as are most of my beliefs. It's an unfortunate side effect of being smarter than you. Ignorant and stupid on the other hand, I take exception to.

The overthrow of British kings and establishment of democracy is not originally an American idea. 8 or 9 out of 10 Americans almost certainly are ignorant of the fact that Oliver Cromwell established a short-lived parlimentary government in England in the early 17th century. It quickly became a tyrany of multiple heads- squires and parliment members were as bad as kings, just in smaller spheres of influence. This prompted Cromwell to sieze power and lead as justly as he knew how, aborting the experiment with democracy.
The failures of Cromwell's democracy exist in our own as well, especially in the modern age. The only difference is that nobody pulled the plug. It worked out alright, but we aren't the originals- we didn't give birth to the idea, and it is arrogant and ignorant to claim any such glory. I don't even have to go into the roots of republican government in Greece and Rome, do I?
Oh, I almost forgot to mention- America has one of the strongest executive branches in the free world, which naturally serves to make us less free than most. Our first president made a habbit of snubbing the people's chosen representatives in congress, and established a trend which has created such phenomenon as the permanent succession of the Vice President (which was never intended, and resulted in an American president being commonly known as "His Accidency"). It has also resulted in the Somalia debacle, the Monica Missiles, the doomed strategy of the Vietnam War, etc etc etc.
-Most of the free world tries to -AVOID- borrowing that from our playbook-


As for the historical significance of America, in the context of a millenium or so- we may very well be insignificant. We're not even the first colony to become a strong nation in its own right and become involved in a super-power standoff and a pair of historically significant wars (i'll give you a hint- Carthage). Keep in mind that 238 years of survival and 60 years of prominence in world affairs is hardly an impressive run by historical standards. I'll grant that we've far and away outdone The Soviet Republic of Bavaria (I don't even think they made through the spring of 1919), but only an arrogant, ignorant, propaganda fed old man would suggest that America has defined the growth of the free world.

See the good, see the bad, accept it all. If what we have now is good, then the past that got us here must be alright. By the way- we're friggin rich by world standards. We don't need to dream up an noble legacy for our nation. Our good name isn't exactly all we've got.

Actually my opinion would be even stronger if there was a genocide against my race. I would be SUPREMELY convinced that one race or the other had to go, and I would do everything in my power to see that the other race went instead of mine.

PLEASE, explain to me how Africa is suposed to go about getting their hand on western medication to tread the AIDS virus (somewhat) when our country, wich is 10,000 miles away, is reluctant to give them up? Are they sposed to canoe over here and take them by force? Our country is killing off a people who can not defend themselvs.

Dave Chapell said it best " Crack was invented to kill the black society, so was AIDS." (not an exact quote but similar)

Please note that I am not against the war in Afghanistan (on the assumption that al qaeda was plentiful there and osama with his team were there too), but I am against the way in which war was conducted. One of our rules SHOULD be to minimize civilian casualties.

Amen to that brother.

My question for GW is, why did we ever pull out of Afghanistan? Why did we let the person who actually carried out the attacks on 9/11 go scott free? The American peolpe (at least some of us) remember who it was that orderd those planes to crash into the twin towers and the pentigon, and we know that the administration (basicly) let him get away.

Originally posted by Tr33stump

Actually my opinion would be even stronger if there was a genocide against my race. I would be SUPREMELY convinced that one race or the other had to go, and I would do everything in my power to see that the other race went instead of mine.

PLEASE, explain to me how Africa is suposed to go about getting their hand on western medication to tread the AIDS virus (somewhat) when our country, wich is 10,000 miles away, is reluctant to give them up? Are they sposed to canoe over here and take them by force? Our country is killing off a people who can not defend themselvs.

Dave Chapell said it best " Crack was invented to kill the black society, so was AIDS." (not an exact quote but similar)

I don't entirely understand you. The quote you used from me seems to have no relevance to your post. I'm was not saying that AIDS should be used to accomplish genocide in Africa, if that is what you are getting at.

What I'm saying is this, and it answers your question about the AIDS medications too. They CAN'T get them for themselves, and we can't give it to them either becuase nobody can afford to give them enough! If we could cure AIDS that would be the thing to do, but we can't. All we can do is buy the victim a couple of extra years in which to spread the disease, we can't even -attempt- to help every single victim, which means that our efforts will ultimately fail anyway. This means the wasting of millions or even BILLIONS of dollars which could have been poured into legitimate nation building which would truly end the suffering of the people in Africa who suffer other illnesses for lack of shelter, sanitation, and nutrition.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if the first world WANTED a strong Africa (which they dont) they would support, maybe even encourage conquests by strong nations, re-organizing of borders, genocides, migrations or whatever else was necessary to reduce internal conflicts and create larger wealthier nations which had the ability to develop infrastructure and build an economy. I believe that the half-handling of issues in Africa is part of a conscious project by certain nations to let Africa die so that it can be exploited for resources and additional territory.

Crack, and most hard drugs- yes they are ready-made control agents for the population. Did you know that one famous "LSD guru" was a former CIA agent? I'll research that and post support for that statement soon. It was meant to take the wind out of any push for change coming from young people.

Ramsey Clark is an avowed left wing communist. Trying a sitting US president of the most powerful country in the world with a crime after receiving congressional approval would also mean that 100 senators would also be charged. During the Clinton years every senator and even the UN screamed to the heavens there were WMD's. Bush's fault is waiting 1 year and toying with the US senate while they dismantled the WMD and hid them in Syria.

Nice fantasy.

Well 8/26 has come and gone and I didn't see much come out of it. Looks like a bunch of hype that ulitmately resulted in nothing.