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Australian mind control

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posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by SiRiNO


I think it is how when they commit crimes it seems they are exempt from punishment alot of the time. Now thats a power. (i'm joking guys, dont lynch me)

I dont buy this story, or the whole aboriginal ancient wisdom thing. If they were so wise they wouldnt have been living in a stone age culture of ignorence, fear, and superstition.

[edit on 30-8-2004 by SiRiNO]


Your little "joke" was in questionable taste just the same, unless you honestly didn't know that Aboriginals [& part-Aboriginals too] are disproportionally represented in Australian penal institutions, and that their terms of imprisonment are also longer than "whitefellas".

I have no intention of supplying the actual figures at the moment, because I'm upset enough right now by the tone of your post. And haven't you ever heard of "Deaths in Custody" - I truly doubt you have, otherwise you'd never have made that statement in the first place.

Stone Age culture of superstition, IGNORANCE & fear? That is one of the most condescending descriptions I have had the dubiousl "pleasure" of hearing re Aboriginal culture in a long time. Their hunting & foraging skills obviously mean nothing to a child of the 21st century such as you, sir or madam.

I have outlined a few of their traditional skills. Think on these some more - & think hard on your own chances of survival were you lost & off the beaten track without any of your modern gadgets to save your skin. People with cars totally immobilised by hitting an old man roo in the outback have often died of thirst. Think on how many tourists have lost their lives in similar circumstances.

Could you, even with a bunch of mates, find water in the desert? Could you bring down a kangaroo for food? Could you fashion boomerangs - both the "killing" & the "returning" types? How would you know not to camp by a uranium-rich area? Do you know which famous explorer died amidst plenty because he did not know how to prepare the vegetation that he already knew was edible?

Some of their so-called superstitions of which you speak so scornfully, prevented both close in-breeding & tribal wars. They lived in close harmony with, & survived well, in an often harsh & unforgiving environment. Do not pretend to judge them by your 21st century standards.




posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by Bastet
Your little "joke" was in questionable taste just the same, unless you honestly didn't know that Aboriginals [& part-Aboriginals too] are disproportionally represented in Australian penal institutions, and that their terms of imprisonment are also longer than "whitefellas".

I have no intention of supplying the actual figures at the moment, because I'm upset enough right now by the tone of your post. And haven't you ever heard of "Deaths in Custody" - I truly doubt you have, otherwise you'd never have made that statement in the first place.

Stone Age culture of superstition, IGNORANCE & fear? That is one of the most condescending descriptions I have had the dubiousl "pleasure" of hearing re Aboriginal culture in a long time. Their hunting & foraging skills obviously mean nothing to a child of the 21st century such as you, sir or madam.

I have outlined a few of their traditional skills. Think on these some more - & think hard on your own chances of survival were you lost & off the beaten track without any of your modern gadgets to save your skin. People with cars totally immobilised by hitting an old man roo in the outback have often died of thirst. Think on how many tourists have lost their lives in similar circumstances.

Could you, even with a bunch of mates, find water in the desert? Could you bring down a kangaroo for food? Could you fashion boomerangs - both the "killing" & the "returning" types? How would you know not to camp by a uranium-rich area? Do you know which famous explorer died amidst plenty because he did not know how to prepare the vegetation that he already knew was edible?

Some of their so-called superstitions of which you speak so scornfully, prevented both close in-breeding & tribal wars. They lived in close harmony with, & survived well, in an often harsh & unforgiving environment. Do not pretend to judge them by your 21st century standards.


Yeap they sure are over represented, because statisticly they unfortunatly commit more crimes per person than any other ethnic group in australia. It isnt anyones fault but their own i'm afraid. Yes ofcause I have heard of deaths in custody, but let us remember that people of all races and creeds take their lives in custody, it isnt only an aboriginal phenominon.

I very much doubt I could survive in the outback without technology, but that isnt my home - my area of experiance. A pretty pointless argument, its like saying the eskimo culture is better than the one I am part of because I cant live in the polar regions.

I will admit yes, their forreging skills are quite impressive, but for the last few thousand years the majority of cultures in the world have adopted farming, which produces a much higher yield of food than just looking for game and plants in the bush. I would have thought that developing technology to feed millions would be more impressive than the forreging skills to feed a group of just a few thousand total. There is a very good reason why the aboriginal population was so low, forreging is horrably inefficient, and cannot support very many people at all.

Lived in harmony? Pull the other one. The reaons we have so many plants that need fire to germinate is because the aboriginal population's mass burning destroyed alot of australias plant species. All that destruction for just a few charred animals. Such a waste. I hate to think the damage that would have been done if the population was larger.

For a culture and its people to not change or increase their technical knowledge at all in 40,000 years is not a good thing...history has shown that stagnent cultures are quite often wiped out by newer more advanced ones (which is what happened to an extent). I for one am not jelious the slightest bit.



posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by SiRiNO

Yeap they sure are over represented, because statisticly they unfortunatly commit more crimes per person than any other ethnic group in australia. It isnt anyones fault but their own i'm afraid. Yes ofcause I have heard of deaths in custody, but let us remember that people of all races and creeds take their lives in custody, it isnt only an aboriginal phenominon.


I then draw your attention to some excellent research that has been done on why the seeming “more crimes” committed by Aboriginals also on their over-representation in the prison population occurs. And a lot of it has to do with how the person in court is perceived by the judge, & thus those from impoverished backgrounds which inevitably leads to poorer dress, education, previous “form” [meaning juvenile offences] etc – well in a word, these peoplr fare poorly at the hands of white, upper-class judges.

members.ozemail.com.au...
www.ahs.cqu.edu.au...

and our “highers & betters” are well aware of these injustices, & remedial measures are being put into place –

www.aic.gov.au...



Originally posted by SiRiNO
I will admit yes, their forreging skills are quite impressive, but for the last few thousand years the majority of cultures in the world have adopted farming, which produces a much higher yield of food than just looking for game and plants in the bush. I would have thought that developing technology to feed millions would be more impressive than the forreging skills to feed a group of just a few thousand total. There is a very good reason why the aboriginal population was so low, forreging is horrably inefficient, and cannot support very many people at all.


Only a comparatively small proportion of Australia’s vast land mass is suited to agricultural practice. And we’ve made quite a mess of it anyway, what with over-stocking – the early settlers’ catchcry was “the rain will follow the plough” – yeah right. Our massive defoliation practices led to full-on soil erosion & destruction of habitat of indigenous flora & fauna - which further confirms my point that the Aboriginals DID preserve & live in harmony with their environment. We, on the other hand, have wilfully destroyed most of Oz's rainforests with logging & the wood-chip industry. NSW lost all its red cedar, & I doubt there's many kauri trees left in W.A. And we've put in vast plantations of pine forests - which denude the soil of nutrients.

Due to the massive defoliation CAUSED BY "WHITEY", plus the damage caused by sheeps' feet & nibbling habits, our fragile & very limited arable topsoil has been borne by the wind as far as New Guinea FYI, in massive quantities. We have introduced more destructive flora & fauna than you can shake a stick at – rabbits, foxes, carp, lantana [which has choked out much of our rainforests & is toxic to our livestock], Patterson’s Curse, privet, pampas grass, sugar-cane, cane toads, prickly pear – how much time you got – I can fill pages with more, but surely that will suffice.


Originally posted by SiRiNO Lived in harmony? Pull the other one. The reaons we have so many plants that need fire to germinate is because the aboriginal population's mass burning destroyed alot of australias plant species. All that destruction for just a few charred animals. Such a waste. I hate to think the damage that would have been done if the population was larger.


You obviously haven’t considered the cause & effect of Australia’s native eucalyptus trees, so I’ll attempt to further your education in that respect. Know why the Blue Mountains got their name? Of course you do – because of the blue haze that hangs over them. And this blue haze is caused by the NATURAL release of the HIGHLY VOLATILE oils produced by our native gums. And the Blue Mountains, as I’m sure you do know, is only one part of the whole mountain chain that stretches up & down Australia’s east coast.

Now we certainly don’t have any irresponsible tribes of marauding koories setting fire to our vegetation these days, do we? Yet we still have regular & furious bushfires every year in Oz – caused by the spontaneous combustion of these volatile oils in our searing summer temperatures. Next you’ll be telling me that all bushfires are caused by arsonists.



Originally posted by SiRiNOFor a culture and its people to not change or increase their technical knowledge at all in 40,000 years is not a good thing...history has shown that stagnent cultures are quite often wiped out by newer more advanced ones (which is what happened to an extent). I for one am not jelious the slightest bit.


Yes, how well we’ve done. Many of our beachside suburbs on the East Coast – parts of the Gold Coast, for example – are in danger of sliding into the sea - due to OUR defoliation, removal of sand dunes, & general alteration of the whole land structure. Most of our population chooses to live on the coastal strip.

And who remembers Thredbo? – what a great example of planning that was. As for the rest of it, we’re faced with the same problems as other “advanced civilisations” of today, but there’s no need for me to enumerate these – just take a look around the ATS forums.

You sound just like so many Sydney people I know with your opinions.



[edit on 31/8/04 by Bastet]

[edit on 31/8/04 by Bastet]



posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 04:54 AM
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Yeah, sure, everything that has ever gone wrong is the whitemans fault
because living in the stone age with famine and ignorence...is the way to go.

So on topic whats with these psychic magical natives? Tell me more. Are they a result of radiation, or aboriginals trying to make their ancient culture seem better to outsiders?



posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 05:04 AM
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Originally posted by SiRiNO

[snip]

I will admit yes, their forreging skills are quite impressive,

[snip].


I omitted to thank you most sincerely for that "admission". It was like finding a diamond in a sea of prejudice & bias.



posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 05:19 AM
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Originally posted by SiRiNO
Yeah, sure, everything that has ever gone wrong is the whitemans fault

[snip]


I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here, & I'm not even sure you do.

What exactly is the "everything gone wrong" that you're referring to?
I do get the distinct impression that you're laying the blame for whatever it is at the koories' doorsteps. Please be more specific - as long as it doesn't conflict with your desire to stay on topic, of course.


Originally posted by SIRIO
So on topic whats with these psychic magical natives? Tell me more. Are they a result of radiation, or aboriginals trying to make their ancient culture seem better to outsiders?


You just don't get it, do you? I've already told of the examples that I personally know of.

Your obvious prejudice is showing. The aborigines AREN'T making any boasts or claims re psychic powers. Whatever gave you the idea that they were?

I really suggerst you read through this threaq properly & confirm for yourself that NO SUCH claims have been made.

[edit on 31/8/04 by Bastet]



posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by Bastet
I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here, & I'm not even sure you do.

What exactly is the "everything gone wrong" that you're referring to?
I do get the distinct impression that you're laying the blame for whatever it is at the koories' doorsteps. Please be more specific - as long as it doesn't conflict with your desire to stay on topic, of course.


It seems to me that people are blaming every single little problem the aboriginal community experiances on whitey. Which imho is completely wrong, and wont solve anything. They need to form more role models in their communities and lay off the blame and compensation crap, people are really sick of it.


Originally posted by Bastet
I omitted to thank you most sincerely for that "admission". It was like finding a diamond in a sea of prejudice & bias.


Anytime


This 'pointing the bone' type behaviour is common is alot of primative tribes around the world, and works by autosuggestion. Nothing new or magical there.



posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by SiRiNO


It seems to me that people are blaming every single little problem the aboriginal community experiances on whitey. Which imho is completely wrong, and wont solve anything. They need to form more role models in their communities and lay off the blame and compensation crap, people are really sick of it.


Now I know where you're coming from - you're referring SOLELY to the problems within the Aboriginal community, & not to Australia's problems as a whole. Good, I'll take it from there then.

I am NOT one of those who blames all their problems on "whitey" - only a large part of them.

You obviously fail to realise that Aboriginals have only gained full citizenship rights in the last 3 decades - after 2 CENTURIES of being accustomed to a culture of living on welfare & handouts. I'm willing to bet that you're not old enough to remember when this happened. You obviously can't empathise with their resentments towards us for this, for the Stolen Generation, for the longterm results of limited access to healthcare & educational opportunities, nor for the terrible physical & mental effects of alcohol on a race of people whose bodies can't metabolise alcohol as well as we can - this has been proven by medical research, & it's because our bodies have had millennia of alcohol use.

We're just starting to see Aboriginals graduating from universities & colleges. Role models aren't thick on the ground YET, but give it time. Put yourself in their place for a moment if you can, which I very much doubt, & try to imagine the resentment you would feel.

It has taken over 200 years for the pattern to be reversed, so it's unreasonable to expect the changes YOU want, to occur in the space of 30 years. Give it another generation, & I'm confident you'll be looking back then & saying "I remember when" - just like I do now.

And now that I've demolished your petty claim - as in:-

Originally posted by SIRINO
Lived in harmony? Pull the other one. The reaons we have so many plants that need fire to germinate is because the aboriginal population's mass burning destroyed alot of australias plant species. All that destruction for just a few charred animals. Such a waste. I hate to think the damage that would have been done if the population was larger.


by pointing out the effects of high temperatures on volatile oils given off by eucalypts, and which, BTW, you never even acknowledged, still you keep on with your obviously prejudiced mindset.
.



Originally posted by SiRiNO

This 'pointing the bone' type behaviour is common is alot of primative tribes around the world, and works by autosuggestion. Nothing new or magical there.


You didn't read the thread properly after all, did you?

This was a topic devoted to WHETHER Aboriginals had any psychic powers. And you chose to TOTALLY ignore the King Ranch nurse's surprise at the dream predictions that came true. Same as you ignored the local tribes' knowledge of the dangers of uranium-bearing areas as being unlucky/forbidden.

None so blind as those who will not see. If you're not prepared to do the posters in this thread the courtesy of READING their posts, then there's no chance of engaging in any meaningful debate with you.

[edit on 31/8/04 by Bastet]

[edit on 31/8/04 by Bastet]



posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by Bastet
Now I know where you're coming from - you're referring SOLELY to the problems within the Aboriginal community, & not to Australia's problems as a whole. Good, I'll take it from there then.

I am NOT one of those who blames all their problems on "whitey" - only a large part of them.

You obviously fail to realise that Aboriginals have only gained full citizenship rights in the last 3 decades - after 2 CENTURIES of being accustomed to a culture of living on welfare & handouts. I'm willing to bet that you're not old enough to remember when this happened. You obviously can't empathise with their resentments towards us for this, for the Stolen Generation, for the longterm results of limited access to healthcare & educational opportunities, nor for the terrible physical & mental effects of alcohol on a race of people whose bodies can't metabolise alcohol as well as we can - this has been proven by medical research, & it's because our bodies have had millennia of alcohol use.


EXCELLENT response.
You have tapped in to the very same notions I find myself having to remind so many Americans of when they spit the dummy and throw a tantrum about Affirmative Action in the US.

Thank you for encourageing people to think a little further than their own limited experience.

U.



posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by SiRiNO
Yeah, sure, everything that has ever gone wrong is the whitemans fault
because living in the stone age with famine and ignorence...is the way to go.


Famine? I am not aware of any evidence that Aboriginal cultures experienced famine... So the 'ignorence' (its actually spelled with an 'a') seems to be all your's.

I could argue that there are probably more people who suffer from being overweight in modern day Australian society than there were who suffered from famine in the Dream Time, by an order of magnitude.

Be careful of throwing the 'ignorence' stone around in your fragile glass house.

U.



posted on Aug, 31 2004 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by Ezekial

The term Kadiacha , if it is the same thing I am thinking of is actually something different. Aboriginal folk-lore (correct term?) told of a spirit(s) of some sort that would attack certain people in the night. Out in the NT we were working on a property that had an area called "kadiacha paddock" that I swear was one of the spookiest places i've ever been to. You see these little figures out of the corner of your eye all the time, its freaky.


That's interesting, and parallels an experience I had in the Hunter Valley region of NSW. I'm going to see if I can find out anything else...

U.



posted on Sep, 2 2004 @ 01:03 AM
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Bastet, thank you for your intelligent and considerate posts! I thank God that there's someone like you on this forum>


Now, to get back on topic, I think the original question was regarding Aboriginal psychic abilities. Being Aboriginal (Koori, specifically) there's a number of things I can share, just keep them to yourselves


As far as 'psychic ability' goes I wouldn't call it as such. To an Aboriginal person the spiritual world is as real, if not more real than the physical world. I would say that an Aboriginal person is (in varying degrees) closer to the spiritual world than most non-Aboriginal people.

Let me give you some examples:
1. My sister and I are very sensitive but our brother is not. We can walk past a house and feel like there's a bad presence there. There's one part of the old mission where my dad grew up (Moonacullah) where neither of us like to go (under some old peppercorn trees) but we never discussed it with each other until Easter this year. I don't know what's there and I don't particularly want to find out.
2. A lot of Aboriginal awareness relates to death. A Koori hearing a Mopoke (bird) cry will know that someone has died and if that person is particularly sensitive he/she will be able to tell you soon enough who that person was. Also, when a close family member dies, there tends to be some awareness of it within the family. The night my great-grandmother died my father, aunties and uncles all swear she turned up at my grandparents house in Melbourne and checked on all the kids (who were in bed). They saw her stick her head in the door in the night and they thought "why is Nanny here?"
I can't explain it.

As for influencing ships to sink and that kind of stuff
Not me!

There's also old stories (not 'tales' because tales aren't true, whereas stories are) of people who were regarded as 'clever'. They 'know' things about people. My sister is like that but you don't have to be Aboriginal to have that gift.

The Kadaichi Man (I never know how to spell it correctly) is not part of my family's traditions, but certain men known as 'The Featherfoots' are. I think they're essentially the same. These are 'clever' men who can do things like enter locked rooms, follow people across the country to carry out justice or judgement and things like that. I have never encountered anything like it but my dad once ran an Aboriginal hostel in Morwell (Victoria) and they had a fellow stay with them from the Northern Territory. He was supposedly running from something, although I have no idea of the details. One night my father found evidence of a 'Featherfoot' in the hostel who got into the kitchen area after it was all locked up. Maybe he was hungry!
They're real people, so I guess they should be!

Anyway, hope that helps!


[edit on 2-9-2004 by answerman]



posted on Sep, 2 2004 @ 03:07 AM
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Thank you for sharing that with us, answerman – that was brilliant.

I’ve heard little bits & pieces of what you’ve just posted, but never as cohesively as this, & I really appreciate it – as will upuaut, I’m sure, because this is exactly the kind of stuff he’ll be researching on his forthcoming trip to Oz.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Perhaps the dreams of impending death that my nurse friend heard about [& freaked out when they came true], were part of another tribe’s spirituality – the kooris working at King Ranch would probably have originated from that area. Most of us “latecomers” have to a large degree, pretty well lost touch with such spirituality IMO. And too many of us have also lost the close sense of family that your people still have.

The koori sense of family never ceases to amaze me even now. You all seem to know your family ties – no matter how extended - & there’s so many marvellous examples of the length & extent your people go to, to seek one another out, despite the multi-generational fractures caused by the “Stolen Generation”. Archie Roach is just one that comes to mind.

Nothing to thank me for, answerman, my avatar says it all – it’s we who thank YOU!

[BTW, I know Morwell too, used to live at Moe.]


[edit on 2/9/04 by Bastet]



posted on Sep, 2 2004 @ 08:08 PM
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Rereading this thread (coincidentally listening to Archie Roach's Beggar Man) I admit shedding tears. I thank God for people like Bastet, who have the patience to communicate with those who are ignorant, clearing the clouds from their minds, and not giving up in frustration.

People like SiRinO are common and feel comfortable in their ignorance, superiority stance and within their prejudiced social groups. I get too frustrated to patiently cut through their BS bias, and I appreciate your attitude a lot and it is inspiring.

Mark Latham reminds me of Gough Whitlam, and I think it's going to be up to him to formally apologise, get a treaty organised and, if we become a republic, give all the Crown land back to the Koories.



posted on Sep, 3 2004 @ 11:50 PM
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Good of you to say that, stoneskull, but I don't see as I've achieved anything beyond "preaching to the already converted".

It doesn't look like I've made any difference to SiRiNO's point of view. He hasn't returned, which he well could have, cos he'd have had the right to crow that kooris didn't really have any magical powers, just like he had said all along. I'd have been perfectly happy to concede victory to him on this point., I'm never backward in saying sorry, I was wrong.

So I can only conclude that he couldn't face up to the error of his atrongly-held belief that Aborigines wilfully caused bushfires in the past so that they could enjoy a feed of cooked meat! when the evidence shows otherwise. But truth is the thing that sets you free from ignorance - & any Aussies here will bear me out in even this one thing - after an Aussie bushfire, all that's left is charred stumps & ashes & maybe a few bits of bone & near-unrecognisable bits of charred fur if you're lucky.

answerman IMO, has contributed the best information to this whole thread.

Edit - added this
"You have voted answerman for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month."



[edit on 3/9/04 by Bastet]



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 01:28 AM
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Bastet, I think I said there some people with abilties which may be considered 'magical', but these are initiated men, regarded as being 'clever', which carries a sense of having certain knowledge. They can enter locked rooms, track people down etc.

One of the abilities I've heard about that I would have found....... beneficial......
is the secret of the 'smell'. What's that? you ask..... Once my dad was talking to a tribal fellow from Central Australia who had been initiated as a youngster. This old fellow was never short of a beautiful young woman to wait on him hand and foot. When my dad asked 'why this was so' the old fellow just smiled and said it was the secret of the smell and would not teach it to a young man for fear of it being abused.
As if!!


There's lots of these kind of things, but really I wouldn't call them magic or put them in the category of sinking a ship off the coast.


BTW, thanks for your support and encouragement!



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 04:12 AM
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Well, I think that may have put the kibosh on any idea of Aborigines sinking ships with magical powers, 8 I can't say I'm sorry to hear that, though perhaps our military wouldn't agree with me!

As for the "clever men', that's pretty amazing and I don't doubt that this is so. That knowledge, the sense of "smell' - that would be worth a fortune to the uninitiated - just imagine, guys, the power, the absolute glory of always having a gorgeous gal to wait on you hand, foot & finger!



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 09:41 PM
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Absolutely



posted on Sep, 7 2004 @ 10:00 PM
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Originally posted by answerman
Absolutely


I'll just contribute something this reminds me of. Yogic traditions make mention of one of the effects of disciplined celibacy being that after a certain period of such, the male body takes on a 'fresh, sweet fragrance' (paraphrase).
When reading this, I reasoned that it makes perfect sense that our pheremonal output would be affected by the hormonal and secretional balance of our bodies, and a body which has produced sperm and is in a sort of idling, top-up mode, as opposed to a body that has recently depleted its sperm and is still reeling from the effort of replenishing it, would probably be more powerful to women.
I have noticed this myself: when I am in such an idling/top-up phase, I command more female attention than at other times.

The sense of smell is one of the most sensitive senses to mental and physical pollution, as in it is one fo the first to suffer from them. The purer the mind and body, the more keen the sense of smell. I am convinced that indigenous lifestyles are more conducive to maintaining a good sense of smell than modern, Western life is. As such, it is possible to postulate that an awareness of pheremones is possible beyond the scientific: and that these traditions relate a direct and aware sensing of pheremonal qualities.

To move into slightly more esoteric terms, I believe that this fresh smell is also influenced by the free-flow of energy in the body. After sexual depletion, there is little energy and thus little flow. But having more energy is not enough if it is blocked and not free-flowing.
The chemical constituents of the body follow these flows: when our bodies are exercised, and have a good steady flow of chi, physical toxins do not accumulate as much as when there is stagnation in mind and body.
It is possible that this 'smell' is also affected by the presence or relative lack of accumulated toxins in the body.

The conjuction of sexual charge and freedom from toxins can possibly be the origin of a smell which has made its way into certain traditions of knowledge transmission, and which is a sign of good health women would naturally be attracted to. When knowingly cultivated, I do not doubt that it would prove to be a powerful tool of personal magnetism.

Just some thoughts...

M.



posted on Sep, 8 2004 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by Bastet
Good of you to say that, stoneskull, but I don't see as I've achieved anything beyond "preaching to the already converted".

It doesn't look like I've made any difference to SiRiNO's point of view. He hasn't returned, which he well could have, cos he'd have had the right to crow that kooris didn't really have any magical powers, just like he had said all along. I'd have been perfectly happy to concede victory to him on this point., I'm never backward in saying sorry, I was wrong.


I'm within my rights to crow, but I shall spare you that because you have presented some nice arguements and kept it civil all the way through. *claps*



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